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RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 4:15:37 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

Of course I have needs as well as desires. He decides which are met. There are things I need to survive, and there are things I need to thrive.

Just out of curiosity, would you distinguish between wants and desires? For me, desires are stronger than wants, more along the lines of drives but not necessary for survival in the same way needs are.

In all honesty I wasn't differentiating between the two (wants vs. desires) when I wrote that. Now here you've gone and made me have to think!

I'd say a "want" is a nice-to-have. I want a new car. But that's not happening any time soon so I'll live without it and not think about it much. I desire to touch him, taste him, feel him every chance I get, so much so that I crave it and think about it all the time. I desire him to be content and happy, and so I hope for that for him, and do my part toward contributing to it.

I suppose I could say "want" reflects the superficial, not so important stuff and "desire" reflects what is in my heart. Desires, when met, can feed my need to thrive. I can survive without them, but I might not thrive without them.

By the way, I loved what you said about remaining close to wantlessness.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 61

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 5:03:21 AM

tahlly

Posts: 57
Status: offline

I have not read many of the responses and am replying to the original question posted.

My relationship with my owner is based solely on service. By serving him; my wants, and my needs are met fully. My reward is the privilege of serving him. That service is decided solely by him. It may only be keeping the house clean, his clothes clean, and keeping him fed. It may include sexual service. It may include being nothing more than a hostess for his parties. And then, it may include nothing more than just being there for him when he needs me for something specific.

Either way; as long as I am serving him; his wants and his needs; then mine are being met also. And that is the biggest reward that could ever be given.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 62

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 5:17:13 AM

MissLily

Posts: 146
Joined: 8/19/2007
Status: offline

nah, when I receive a message like that, I just delete it and don't bother to answer.

I find it's the rethoric I was given too many times by dirty lil' wankers I ended up weeding out....

I mean come on! Everybody has needs!

Anyway, I just find it annoying.

Miss Lily

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 63

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 5:25:28 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

-FR-
It is , in my opinion, quite different to feel that way about a relationship you are in, and about every D-type you encounter.
Fox and Angel live for my pleasure, as tey will both readily tell you. They want me to be happy, even if it isnt always what is most comfortable for them. Their devotion is becasue of the relationship, the relationship didnt happen becasue of the devotion.
I do not believe that it is possible for a sub/slave to live for someone's pleasure when they have not MET that person yet. The D type doesnt mean anything to them yet, and living for a stranger's complete happiness, while maybe the stuff of fantasies, is hardly believable. I think it stems more form the idea of "what a slave should sound like to appear as a good slave" than any actual desire to give up all their desires for someone they have just met, or may never meet.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to MissLily)

Post #: 64

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 9:27:25 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tahlly
My relationship with my owner is based solely on service. By serving him; my wants, and my needs are met fully. My reward is the privilege of serving him. That service is decided solely by him. It may only be keeping the house clean, his clothes clean, and keeping him fed.

...

Either way; as long as I am serving him; his wants and his needs; then mine are being met also. And that is the biggest reward that could ever be given.

This begs the question... if you were to do all those things but NEVER have contact with him, never see that he is pleased, never hear "good girl", nothing... would you still be fulfilled? You are still serving him, but you get ZERO in return.

Or is it the fact that you SEE that he is pleased with you, in fact, your reward, your want, your need? Or is your reward REALLY just the privilege of serving him, as you said?

Cali
(not trying to argue, just trying to churn up some thought)

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to tahlly)

Post #: 65

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 9:39:25 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
This begs the question... if you were to do all those things but NEVER have contact with him, never see that he is pleased, never hear "good girl", nothing... would you still be fulfilled? You are still serving him, but you get ZERO in return.

Or is it the fact that you SEE that he is pleased with you, in fact, your reward, your want, your need? Or is your reward REALLY just the privilege of serving him, as you said?

Cali
(not trying to argue, just trying to churn up some thought)

This is a great question. I've been there before, with my Master. This is what I meant in my difference between surviving and thriving. I did not thrive at all. I was quite down, in fact. It took a huge amount of energy for me to process this, and some good friends to help me through it. We went through a period of time, for reasons I won't explain here, when I rarely heard from him, did not see him at all, and my ability to contact him was restricted. It was hellish. But the one thing that got my by was knowing I was doing exactly what he wanted, and the peace I felt knowing he was proud of me and that he could count on me to be there no matter what. I was doing exactly what was expected and I knew he was very pleased with that, even if he did not tell me so.

Over time, my inability to thrive this way diminished severely, and I was merely surviving. This affected my day to day life. It affected everything I did. The expectation for me to hang out and be happy about it exceeded my capabilities. I did not find happiness in such prolonged suffering. I was willing to continue to endure such suffering, and I knew I would survive it, but I became quite depressed. When he saw this affect on me, he changed the situation, as that was not at all what he wanted for me.

I share this because I learned it is really easy for me to say "I'm happy to do anything for him" when the suffering is relatively minimal. While I will do anything for him, I do not always find joy in service. So your question is a good one - and even a realistic one. In the long run, I had to deal with feelings of personal failure for my inability to happily cope. I coped, but I could not feel happy for it.

There may be things I want to be able to do for him (and by this I don't necessarily mean the physical) but that I may not be capable of doing. My emotional situation was corrected, but it taught me some interesting things about myself.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 66

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 9:54:33 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

Owned, I think what you went thru is exactly what I was thinking. That even if someone says "serving is my only reward", in reality they ARE getting feedback by seeing that their Master is pleased. Even in your diminished state of contact, you still had contact at some point, since he saw you were suffering (he wouldn't know you were suffering if there was never, ever contact)... can you imagine if you continued in that way?

So I have a hard time swallowing it when someone says "serving is my only reward". Heck, if that's the case, they can come clean my house every day while I'm at work. I'll be pleased as punch, and I won't even have to leave a thank you note or anything.

Cali

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 67

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 10:12:52 AM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

quote:

"desire" reflects what is in my heart.

Lovely.

There was something flat about how I phrased things in my first response to the op and I didn't like it. The whole wants/needs framework is useful but there's no room for passion. There's no heart in it, no spirit. I think it is healthy to keep wants to a minimum, but I'm also thinking its important not to destroy desire in the process.

Thank you. You've just pushed my thinking forward a million miles. :)

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 68

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 10:26:22 AM

CatWhoWalksAlone

Posts: 29
Joined: 11/19/2007
From: Greensboro, NC
Status: offline

I'm relatively new to the "wants vs. needs" concept; a close friend of mine went to Katherine Parr's Servant's Retreat, and came back talking about that. We also addressed this at Master Taino's slave training back in March. I ran across a Dom's profile here on Collarme (I forget his name) that put it beautifully in terms of priorities; I'm going to paraphrase here:

your needs, my needs; my wants, your wants. Your opinion counts; your vote does not.

I thought that was beautifully put.

I'm still working on my own wants/needs, but at the top of the (so far short) list, I have SECURITY, to know my Master will not cast me off lightly, that he'll do what is best for me (even if I don't necessarily agree, lol).

I also come to understand some of my NEEDS by watching other couples. For instance, one couple locally come to events together, but he never touches her, looks at her, he pays her absolutely no attention; there doesn't appear to be any connection at all between them other than arriving and leaving together. Now, granted, this *could* be their kink, and who am I to say that it isn't right for someone else? but, noticing them and trying that on, I can say that this is not for me. I have a NEED... not a want, but a NEED for my Master's touch, his glance. I don't have to be hanging on him or anything like that... but the little touches and looks that say "I know you're there." Without some kind of physical affection, my soul would shrivel up and die.

I also have a NEED for my Master to allow me to express the playful side of my nature, and this stems from a NEED to make my Master laugh! seems strange for a need, doesn't it? But to have made my Master laugh, even if it maybe earned me a swat or two (I'm NOT a masochist), is probably the greatest reward for serving that I could possibly have.

_____________________________

---
Cat
http://cat4one4ever.livejournal.com

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 69

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 10:29:53 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

Cali I did'nt mean to choke you. Try useing the safe word the next time and gulp dose'nt count. Forget the wants. I never get what I want.

(in reply to CatWhoWalksAlone)

Post #: 70

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 10:44:40 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatWhoWalksAlone
I have a NEED... not a want, but a NEED for my Master's touch, his glance. I don't have to be hanging on him or anything like that... but the little touches and looks that say "I know you're there." Without some kind of physical affection, my soul would shrivel up and die.

I also have a NEED for my Master to allow me to express the playful side of my nature, and this

I went to a great class that taught the same thing. Visually, you can think of it like this: need/Need/Want/want, where the upper case belongs to the dominant. If you don't take care of your needs, then you can't take care of him.

But just from the outside glancing into your world, I would say your two needs are actually wants. You want attention from him at an event, what if he doesn't want to give it to you? What if he wants to play with someone else? And you want to be playful; what if he doesn't want you to? Sure you are going to be unhappy, and it may change your relationship, but it still seems to be a want. In fact, if he doesn't allow you those things, it may cause you to reach deeper into your soul and find a way to be happy with him doing what he wants. Gosh I seem to be in a deep-thought mood today! Really, I'm not trying to criticize, just throwing some stuff out there to ponder.

My class teacher gave an example of needs and wants that helped me really understand it for myself. They are a 24/7 live-together couple. She said she knew her master wanted the two of them to go to an important event one evening. She was quite exhausted the night before, and planned on sleeping in that morning, so she could go to the event with him. However, he woke her up in the morning and asked if she wanted to run errands with him. Knowing that he liked it when she accompanied him, she went, despite the fact that she was tired. However, when the afternoon/evening rolled around, she was so exhausted that she couldn't go to the event and they ended up staying home. But putting his want (to be accompanied) ahead of her need (for sleep), she ruined his evening. All she had to do was tell him she was tired and needed to rest so that she could go with him that evening, but she didn't.

Cali

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to CatWhoWalksAlone)

Post #: 71

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 10:57:00 AM

tahlly

Posts: 57
Status: offline

quote:

This begs the question... if you were to do all those things but NEVER have contact with him, never see that he is pleased, never hear "good girl", nothing... would you still be fulfilled? You are still serving him, but you get ZERO in return.

Or is it the fact that you SEE that he is pleased with you, in fact, your reward, your want, your need? Or is your reward REALLY just the privilege of serving him, as you said?

Cali
(not trying to argue, just trying to churn up some thought)

It is a very good question, and not one that I feel qualified to answer. This is my first relationship of this kind; one that I have been in now for several years; and it has always been a ‘together’ relationship, meaning that we met first before beginning the relationship.

If I was to place myself in the category that you have mentioned; meaning that we had never met…would I still feel that my need for service was being met? Having never been there, I would have to say no right off the top of my head.

However, in our day to day dealings, I very rarely, if ever, receive praise for my service. Just the fact that he keeps me around is proof that he is pleased with me. Not trying to sound…catty or smug, it just happens to be the truth.

Your last sentence, which said ‘or is your reward just the privilege of serving him my reward’…based on my own relationship, yes, that is my sole reward; just the pleasure and privilege of serving him.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 72

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 11:01:27 AM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

The only needless person is a dead person!

Squee

MS

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to abcbsex)

Post #: 73

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 11:09:07 AM

Maya2001

Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline

I know there is one person on the forums that literally gushes about serving is their only want and I have to wonder how that person would ever cope if their Master would disown them for some reason, they simply do not seem to be a whole person on their own even their conversations here on this board does not seem to express individual personal thoughts or rationing. Most other slaves here I see as complete persons capable of making independant healthy decisions able to express independent thoughts I am not saying they would not feel immense loss if their relationships ended but I also see them as mentally strong individuals capable of overcoming the loss and moving forward with life. The one I am thinking of to me is more of a host parasite benefitting the the one they are with rather than an independent being that is serving that is nothing but an empty shell without a master.

_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 74

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 11:13:53 AM

tahlly

Posts: 57
Status: offline

Maya2001
In all honesty, my relationship with my owner would be seen by others as myself being nothing more than a housekeeper who does not get paid; and who once in awhile, if he feels the need, gets some sex thrown in J J I am quite happy with that J

There are some who are truly happy doing nothing more than seeing to the needs of others; it fulfills their own needs and wants

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 75

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 11:14:04 AM

CatWhoWalksAlone

Posts: 29
Joined: 11/19/2007
From: Greensboro, NC
Status: offline

No, those would be valid points if we're just talking about scening or events. If I don't have enough confidence, or am so needy, that I fall into despair because he plays with someone else, or he's otherwise busy at some event, then I have no business being in that relationship! I *did* mention without needing to be hanging on him ;) In fact, I would find it rather (coughFUCKINGHOTcough) to watch my Master scene with someone else ;) I was, rather, talking about that kind of a "awareness" as being an integral part of the connection of Master/sub within the context of the D/s relationship, which has nothing to do with jealousy or insecurity issues. I don't really know how to explain it better.

As far as being playful, naturally one must pick the times! A good sub will know when it's time to push his button and make him smile, and when it's best to give him the space he needs; it's a matter of *awareness* and being able to read his needs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

But just from the outside glancing into your world, I would say your two needs are actually wants. You want attention from him at an event, what if he doesn't want to give it to you? What if he wants to play with someone else? And you want to be playful; what if he doesn't want you to? Sure you are going to be unhappy, and it may change your relationship, but it still seems to be a want. In fact, if he doesn't allow you those things, it may cause you to reach deeper into your soul and find a way to be happy with him doing what he wants. Gosh I seem to be in a deep-thought mood today! Really, I'm not trying to criticize, just throwing some stuff out there to ponder.
Cali

_____________________________

---
Cat
http://cat4one4ever.livejournal.com

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 76

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 12:10:58 PM

Maya2001

Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tahlly

Maya2001
In all honesty, my relationship with my owner would be seen by others as myself being nothing more than a housekeeper who does not get paid; and who once in awhile, if he feels the need, gets some sex thrown in J J I am quite happy with that J

There are some who are truly happy doing nothing more than seeing to the needs of others; it fulfills their own needs and wants

Yes but you don't fall under the category of what I was referring to , you are able to expressed individual thoughts on your relationship and other areas of your life , it is not just about him solely .. from a former post of yours.

quote:

If I expect something and it does not happen; I am disappointed. Because of this, I have programmed myself to not expect anything in regards to life, people, and relationships. The word Celeste used was hope…I guess it’s a good word to use for the way I look at things. I hope that my owner will continue to behave in a consistent manner towards me; I hope that I will continue to behave in a consistent manner towards him; I hope that our relationship will continue to be as fulfilling in the future as it is now. The same can be said for me when I apply it to my hobby; or when I apply it to others that I meet throughout my life.

I have no expectations; I do however have hope.

_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to tahlly)

Post #: 77

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 6:11:03 PM

Griswold

Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

My sole purpose is your pleasure.
It's all about you, I have no wants or needs.

I greatly appreciate that about you...I agree...enough about you...let's talk about me.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 78

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/2/2008 11:52:34 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Owned, I think what you went thru is exactly what I was thinking. That even if someone says "serving is my only reward", in reality they ARE getting feedback by seeing that their Master is pleased. Even in your diminished state of contact, you still had contact at some point, since he saw you were suffering (he wouldn't know you were suffering if there was never, ever contact)... can you imagine if you continued in that way?

Hi Cali, yes, seeing that he is content is a reward to me. Serving in silence, not hearing from him, not seeing him, smelling him, tasting him, talking to him for a prolonged period of time is indeed serving if that is what he expects of me, but the reward of knowing he was pleased with my doing so was not as strong as my spirits need to be fed by him. This does not mean I did not do what was required, and this does not mean I feel I'm anything special for doing what was required. It just means it was hell, and that I realized what my limitations were. I told him I was willing to starve for him, and I was, but I found no inner peace in doing so. And it opened my eyes to my own former words that doing anything for him was rewarding. It is not. I still do it if it is required of me, but it is not rewarding to give him something unhealthy for him that he wants me to give him. It is not rewarding to be kept away from him when I am wanting to ease his stress.

In the long run it is, in that he holds me in high regard for doing that which is hellish to do. But at the time I honestly find no pleasure in it.

And yes, we did have contact at some point. He was still reading my journals and when he saw I wasn't handling what was happening, he stepped in to help me back on course. Had it continued, there would have been a bigger mess to clean up.

quote:

So I have a hard time swallowing it when someone says "serving is my only reward". Heck, if that's the case, they can come clean my house every day while I'm at work. I'll be pleased as punch, and I won't even have to leave a thank you note or anything.

Cali

I understand that. I now say that seeing and knowing his pleasure is my greatest reward. I don't need kudos, but I like them. So kudos are rewarding. I don't need gifts, but I like them, so the occasional gift is rewarding. I don't need to be told how special I am to him, but I love hearing it, so when I do that is rewarding, too. I do not limit myself to enjoying "only" one rewarding thing about my slavery to him. I love him and everything about him. Loving him his rewarding. Satisfying him (sexually or otherwise) is rewarding. Sleeping at his feet is rewarding. Traveling and exploring at his instruction is rewarding.

But my greatest reward is seeing that look of pleasure and satisfaction on his face, or hearing it in his voice, whether it is due to me or to something else.

But what others feel about their relationships is what they feel. It's not for me to argue with them about, or try to disprove. Personally, I hope others do not come up against such situations in which they find themselves suffering and confused about their place. I just know "serving is my only reward" is a term that sounds great but that I can not honestly or realistically use anymore. I also know if I am denied such a "reward," I will still survive, and I will still serve as his slave however he wants me to. But I won't be thriving and I will probably struggle to find happiness.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 79

RE: Wantless, needless people - 5/3/2008 7:31:01 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

Owned, those were beautiful words expressed while keeping a firm hold on reality. You're one smart chiquita.

Cali

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 80

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