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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 11:01:27 AM

Kasia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

I never joke.

I would be bored to death if I had to communicate in any way with never-joking people.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 12:18:18 PM

frenchpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kasia

quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

Where has Courtesy Gone?

2000 years ago in Latin text from Ancient Rome, the same question was asked only concerning young people versus old.

Actually, when I visited Louvres (before they changed the Egyptian department, so I don't know now), I saw a hyeroglyphic text that was complaining about exactly the same thing. I think this text was over 4000 years old ( it said something like " young people don't have any respect to their elders any more")
Btw, in the same room was another text of the same period describing a bribery scandal (parents making gifts to a teacher, to help their kid) : human nature doesn't change very fast.

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 10/17/2005 12:19:30 PM >

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 12:20:29 PM

harmony3709

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oumae
I am generally polite to people and find that I get politeness back.

Exactly. I don't allow another's lack of respect or courtesy toward me to change my own personal beliefs in how I should behave.

I also don't wait for someone to prove that they are worthy of my courtesy before I give it, or wait and see how courteous or rude they are before I decide whether or not I will use manners, which would also give them control and power over my behavior by their own actions. Only one person in my life has the authority to do that.

Blessed be,
harmony

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 12:21:08 PM

BlueDevil

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There are still people with manners, courtesy, consideration, and understanding. Unfortunately some on both sides of the aisle view those qualities as weak.

I think many of the 'On your knees bitch' contingent either believe that's how a 'real' dominant is supposed to behave, or they've tried being pc and haven't gotten the responses that they hoped for.

As for the 'read my entire profile before YOU DARE message me' submissives, I'd be shocked if there wasn't a history of rude and/or obscene messages behind the majority of those.

You can find polite members of both teams if you look for them. Most of those that post seem to be polite and prepared to treat others with courtesy.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 12:27:45 PM

Kasia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

Actually, when I visited Louvres (before they changed the Egyptian department, so I don't know now), I saw a hyeroglyphic text that was complaining about exactly the same thing. I think this text was over 4000 years old ( it said something like " young people don't have any respect to their elders any more")
Btw, in the same room was another text of the same period describing a bribery scandal (parents making gifts to a teacher, to help their kid) : human nature doesn't change very fast.

See? Even better point...... thanks frenchpet

Like you said - human nature is always the same. I think that those who whine about "good old times" are just displaying themselves getting old and rigid. Nothing else. Maybe the same goes with courtesy

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 1:07:36 PM

Lordandmaster

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Well, I understand the point that Kasia and frenchpet are making, but I think it might be more complicated than that. I interpret all these calls for "more courtesy" and "good old-fashioned values" and stuff like "What happened to politeness and manners?" as a fairly unexceptional and not very effective response to change. Our world is changing faster than ever, and many people are intimidated by this. In many respects the world is a better place than it ever was, but it's growing less and less familiar every day, and many people fear unfamiliar things. I'm pretty sure this is related to the rise of fundamentalism in recent years, too. In a changing and sometimes bewildering world, some people need to hold on more tightly than ever to a few comforting principles.

Edited to add: There was a recent poll confirming that most people have the sense that Americans are ruder than ever.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9692880/

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/17/2005 1:09:32 PM >

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 1:29:40 PM

frenchpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Our world is changing faster than ever, and many people are intimidated by this.

The world is changing faster than ever... but it was already doing so back in 1532, as it was something that Gargantua wrote to Pantagruel ;). Or would Galileo's declamation in the eponymous play by Brecht be more appropriate :D. Of course it's not something Galileo really said, but it does describe the changes of his time. And some of the changes of Galileo's time did scare some people (remember that what he could see with his telescope was just not real...).

On the other hand... some changes really are fundamental, this time:/. I guess I'm just trying to find something reassuring :).

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 10/17/2005 1:33:20 PM >

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 1:29:41 PM

Kasia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I understand the point that Kasia and frenchpet are making, but I think it might be more complicated than that. I interpret all these calls for "more courtesy" and "good old-fashioned values" and stuff like "What happened to politeness and manners?" as a fairly unexceptional and not very effective response to change. Our world is changing faster than ever, and many people are intimidated by this. In many respects the world is a better place than it ever was, but it's growing less and less familiar every day, and many people fear unfamiliar things. I'm pretty sure this is related to the rise of fundamentalism in recent years, too. In a changing and sometimes bewildering world, some people need to hold on more tightly than ever to a few comforting principles.

Edited to add: There was a recent poll confirming that most people have the sense that Americans are ruder than ever.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9692880/

Generally I really agree with you.
Only I still think that human nature doesnt change much, ordinary "people next door" are still much the same like they were some 2 or 4 thousands years ago.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 1:32:11 PM

ImpGrrl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

If you treat me with respect, I will treat you with respect. Simple as that.

It's this line right here that always gets me. I read that as "if you kiss my submissive ass and cowtow to my every need, I will eventually allow you to play with me."

I don't see how "I expect equal respect/courtesy" equals "kiss my ass and kowtow to me". Please explain that to me?

quote:

Disgust and cynicism aside for a moment........

Good - I'll leave mine home, too.

quote:

that same line can, and should be reversed in favor of the dominant side.

I don't think either one should kowtow, unless it's mutually agreed upon.

quote:

After all.........isn't the dominant the one who is running the show??

Within an agreed-upon relationship, absolutely.

[quote Or is he really only a figurehead in the bdsm society?

In the bdsm society, he's only as high as the place he earns among his peers - which include *all* people, not just other d-types.

In his *relationships*, I'd hope he'd be more than a figurehead. But outside of them he's just a guy, like everyone else - and is subject to the same standards of courtesy and mannerly behavior as everyone else.

quote:

It's this line right here that always gets me. I read that as "if you kiss my submissive ass and cowtow to my every need, I will eventually allow you to play with me."

Disgust and cynicism aside for a moment........that same line can, and should be reversed in favor of the dominant side. After all.........isn't the dominant the one who is running the show?? Or is he really only a figurehead in the bdsm society?

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 1:43:29 PM

darkinshadows

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quote:

In the bdsm society, he's only as high as the place he earns among his peers - which include *all* people, not just other d-types.

Now see, there is that word again - earn.

Why do people have to earn anything? If a person is a dominant to someone, they are a dominant. Why should anyone have to earn any position. If I am a submissive, I am a submissive. I don't need to earn that position from anyone, because its naturally who I am.

I don't think that anyone has the 'right' to be rude. One has the right to speak their own opinion, but why should someone feel it imprtatnt to belittle whilst doing it? Yes, I slip, I am not perfect, but I pay for it afterwards because that the inbult code that is within me.

I can count on one hand people who may be considered to have been rude to me(by other people). However, I don't see rudeness, because I try to look beyond the statement onto who and what they are. Rudeness, is only rudeness if one lets it effect them.

My 'code' is to be polite and generous to all. No one has to earn my respect or politeness - its a given. Even if they are rude to me, they do so to gain a response. Too feel some sort of power over me. Sometimes, behaviour effects me because I am saddened by it, but as I said - I take time to look past the occurence and try to see why it happened.

But should curtesy be earnt? Well thats surely an oxymoron - because if it was purely earnt - how would anyone EVER be polite to anyone?

Peace and Love

*edit to add - please excuse my typing problems - I seem to be having some difficulty with getting my vowels to work today...lol...seriously... I think I need to clean the keys(please - no puns....)

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 10/17/2005 1:50:57 PM >

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 1:47:38 PM

Lordandmaster

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Whether Galileo really said it or not (though it seems to fit more with Brecht's worldview than Galileo's), our world is certainly changing faster than Galileo's did. People in Galileo's time may have thought their world was changing faster than ever before--but it wasn't nearly as fast as our world is changing now.

Anyway, what I meant is something like what Eric Hobsbawm called the invention of tradition. It tends to happen a time of social upheaval. I think a lot of this bullshit about courtesy back in the good old days is an invention engendered by a sense of bewilderment in a rapidly changing world. Hobsbawm said it well:

quote:

We should expect [the invention of tradition] to occur more frequently when a rapid transformation of society weakens or destroys the social patterns for which "old" traditions had been designed, producing new ones to which they were not applicable, or when such old traditions and their institutional carriers and promulgators no longer prove sufficiently adaptable and flexible.

Eric Hobsbawm, "Introduction: Inventing Traditions," in The Invention of Tradition, ed. Eric Hobsbawm and Terence Ranger (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983), p. 4.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

The world is changing faster than ever... but it was already doing so back in 1532, as it was something that Gargantua wrote to Pantagruel ;). Or would Galileo's declamation in the eponymous play by Brecht be more appropriate :D. Of course it's not something Galileo really said, but it does describe the changes of his time. And some of the changes of Galileo's time did scare some people (remember that what he could see with his telescope was just not real...).

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/17/2005 6:28:46 PM >

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 1:51:20 PM

Kasia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Why do people have to earn anything?

Because some things are too valuable to be given just like that to anyone. Peope sure have to earn respect from me - I may be polite and I agree that I should be polite to anyone apriori - but respect is something that has to be earned in my opinion. And to go further, trust and love are also the things that most definitely have to be earned.
On the other hand, common courtesy should be just normal way to act, on that I agree.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 1:58:59 PM

darkinshadows

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M'Lady Kassia, then we respectfully disagree.

I really have no doubt that love is priceless and has no 'pricetag' upon it. It is natural and occurs, whether there is a response to it or not. I love, I will love and I have loved.
With respect and politeness, again I see it differently because they too are priceless. That which it that precious and expensive cannot have any price placed upon them. They exist and as such, they are admired and utilised. And above all - love, truth&honesty, politeness and respect are treasured.

Peace and Love

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 2:00:07 PM

ImpGrrl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

In the bdsm society, he's only as high as the place he earns among his peers - which include *all* people, not just other d-types.

Now see, there is that word again - earn.

Why do people have to earn anything? If a person is a dominant to someone, they are a dominant. Why should anyone have to earn any position. If I am a submissive, I am a submissive. I don't need to earn that position from anyone, because its naturally who I am.

I think you misunderstood, and I apologize if it was my writing that made it unclear.

"He is only as high as the place he has earned among his peers" was in reply to the "dominant as the one running the show". I was stating that within bdsm society, "the dominant" does not run the show - *that* is a place that he (or anyone else in a power/trusted/respected position in any community) must earn by the respect/trust/etc of his peers (all people within the community).

I agree that if one prefers to be dominant in his or her interpersonal relationship(s), or submissive in the same, no one has the right to challenge that.

I agree that everyone deserves courtesy. But by that I mean *equal* courtesy - not one set of courtesies for d-types and another for s-types.

quote:

My 'code' is to be polite and generous to all. No one has to earn my respect or politeness - its a given.

I have a similar belief.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 2:15:53 PM

Kasia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

M'Lady Kassia, then we respectfully disagree.

I really have no doubt that love is priceless and has no 'pricetag' upon it. It is natural and occurs, whether there is a response to it or not. I love, I will love and I have loved.
With respect and politeness, again I see it differently because they too are priceless. That which it that precious and expensive cannot have any price placed upon them. They exist and as such, they are admired and utilised. And above all - love, truth&honesty, politeness and respect are treasured.

Peace and Love

My darling its no big deal, I can bear someone disagreeing with me

Well, we are different persons obviously - you can love whether there is response or not, I cannot. If I dont get equal feelings in return my own fade very quickly. And I must say I dont trust people in general very much - therefore they have to show themselves worthy of my trust - earn it.
Because love and trust are priceless to me too I dont give them too easily. Maybe I would be a better person if I could, but I just cant.
Still, I can see your point of view and in a way I envy you on your ability to give yourself unconditionaly.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 4:57:57 PM

subcheryl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticPrince

Where has Courtesy Gone?

When I came to this lifestyle about 20 years ago, there was a spoken and unspoken code of courtesy to A/all. When we were able to go on line the courtesy factor was still there for several years,. Most D/s folks were proud of that.

No as I read journals from primarely subs, I find a growing indication of insult and assumed privledge that did not exist 5 years ago.

any thoughts?

CP

I wonder at times where the courtesy has gone when it comes to doms. I have it written in my journal that I now belong to my Master and that any dom who wishes to write to me must go thru him first, you would be surprised at the number who contact me wishing to write, when I tell them that if they had read my profile and journal they would know to go thru Master some don't write back some write back and are insulting and some even claim to have read it and still come directly to me, I ask where is the courtesy there? Both to my Master and to me, as it is saying they more or less could give a rats a_ _ about the wishes of Master or the possible trouble that it could cause me with my Master.
Courtesy and respect are a two way street in my book, I give it freely unless you don't show it to me then I choose to ignore and not respond to you, I am not yours and I am not required to give it to you if you can't do the same toward me.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 5:17:48 PM

FLButtSlut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueDevil

As for the 'read my entire profile before YOU DARE message me' submissives, I'd be shocked if there wasn't a history of rude and/or obscene messages behind the majority of those.

While I don't use the term "dare", I do expect people emailing me about my profile to have read it. I don't think this is the least bit unreasonable, for one thing, and for another, if you are too lazy to take the 5 minutes to read my profile before messaging me, and then want to ask me a bunch of questions that are answered IN my profile, you are wasting my time. Being a good listener and paying attention to detail is, in my opinion, a positive trait in a dominant as well as a sub.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 7:42:47 PM

IronBear

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I will give you respect when we first meet, this is without any prior knowledge of you but what I believe you deserve as another human being. If you treat me with courtesy, show honour and honesty in your dealings with me you will have earned additional respect and some modicum of trust. If you are disrespectful, dirty mouthed, filled with aggression, over loaded with testosterone and try to get in my face, I will have nothing but contempt for you and will bring you to the ground and in a kneeling position before me by what ever means are at my disposal. That is my way. You start off with an open book, crap in it and I am not particularly forgiving and I do not forget.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 7:55:17 PM

MizSuz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

I do wish I could have been in the UN so I could have stood up after Colin Powell's speech and said, "Thank you for the information about all those WMDs. As you may know we have inspection teams in Iraq that can go pretty much whereever they want. Since you tell us you know where all these things are, if you could just give us the GPS coordinates, we'll have some of our people drop by and take them into custody."

[sigh]

Now wouldn't THAT have been less of a tax burden?!?

sigh indeed.

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RE: Where has Courtesy Gone - 10/17/2005 8:45:32 PM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz
Now wouldn't THAT have been less of a tax burden?!?

sigh indeed.

Actually, I'm a bit embarrassed at dropping politics into a thread that had been relatively clear of it. Just every once in a while, [wait for it] [wait for it] I'm not perfect.

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