RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (Full Version)

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ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/6/2008 11:33:57 PM)

Well... there is one thing in the universal language we both understand it seems... belly dancing with shoes. 
 
BTW gang – I see that the belly dance movie page on my web site is getting some hits.  Be warned it is truly a rough draft, a collection of thoughts and links.  But it does have 43 hot dance videos. 

Disclaimer – any snotty or elitist comments about dancers (with or w/o shoes) on that web page are notes to myself.  I was raised with belly dancing and have been biased.  Besides my mom dancing, she hired a dance troupe every year for the family reunion when we hosted it.




ShaktiSama -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 5:40:41 AM)

Wow, is this thread actually romanticizing some aspect of the Armenian genocide as some kind of BDSM fantasy?





OmegaG -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 6:06:21 AM)

I've always had an interest to learn belly-dancing, though the instructional videos that I've bought haven't seemed to have the passion in them that I thought should be there as I see the dance as a celebration of the female body and the passion for life and sensualness.

I've had the oppurtunity to play an Armenian piece with a band that I belonged to, it was amazing, so full of life and vitality, one almost couldn't help to move with the music.  At the time I wanted to find more pieces and delve into the music, but life got in the way and my interest got torn in other directions.  This thread has rekindled that interest and I thank you for that.

I think that the more I learn about the Armenians and the genocide, the more I admire those people who I am connected to (though sometimes it seems by name only).  So many peoples throughout history have dissappeared or assimilated, but we have so much left of the Armenian culture left, much like the Celtic people and culture, they are a strong lot that have the will to live and survive as a unique culture.

It's hard to elucidate but I am proud of both my Armenian heritage and my Celtic heritage because of their strenght of charecter.




GreedyTop -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 7:14:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Wow, is this thread actually romanticizing some aspect of the Armenian genocide as some kind of BDSM fantasy?




Shakti (ADORE the new pic, BTW...), I didn't see the OP as romanticizing the Armenian genocide.. I saw it as an adult's recollection of a child's experience, holding on to the child's view (expressed with an adult's vocabulary).  RS never (that I saw) inferred that the genocide was anything but horrific.. he relayed the impressions he got, as a child, from the woman who experienced it.

If he'd talked with this woman in his adulthood, I'm sure the tale would have been colored by his adult knowledge of world events.

um.. did that make sense?




BlackPhx -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 7:30:25 AM)

RS,

Very beautiful and I for one thank you for sharing it. You did three things with that story besides reveal some of your own budding interests as a child leading to the man.

You shared a long neglected art..the spoken history. So many of us forget to stop and listen to our grandparents and elders in a community to learn where we have come from and see more clearly where we are going.

You shared a glimpse into a culture that few of us know much about in a area of this world where all we know is of the conflict. Genocide is to be abhorred, though sad to say this country as well as many others are based on it to some large degree. But a great deal of the richness of the culture comes through as well, including the artforms and attitudes towards women, then and now.

Shared another aspect of involuntary slavery and the adaptions people can make to keep their sanity and survive. I suspect she offered you the best of her life and ignored the harshness of some of it. Especially since she spoke of Masters she adored, and I suspect not all of them were so..adorable. She adapted and remembered the best of it, something all of us do to some degree.

Thank you

poenkitten (who hopes one day to meet you)




KMsAngel -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 7:31:08 AM)

I'm afraid i don't understand where you got the romanticising genocide into some kind of bdsm fantasy.

<pause for a moment in silence as it cost 1.5 million Armenian lives in the war that brought her to the Turks and made this story possible.>

he is acknowledging the atrocities that happened and in fact pointed it out before anyone else fired any salvo's at him. don't start a flame war when one is not needed, hm?




ShaktiSama -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 8:14:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KMsAngel
I'm afraid i don't understand where you got the romanticising genocide into some kind of bdsm fantasy.


I dunno.  Even if this story is absolutely 100% true...and I would say the jury is out as to whether or not it is a complete fabrication based on his personal fantasy life, which he is projecting Gor-style onto the most recent historical incidence of en masse non-consensual slavery on record...maybe my sense that this tale romanticzes genocide is based on the monumental amount of male-dominant fantasy worldview being projected onto women that the OP did not personally know, and who probably were not willing to discuss the pain of rape, murder and mutilation with a boy this age.  Much less with a boy of the "customer" class--which I assure you, is a class of male organisms which ALL professional showgirls deal with in much the same fashion.  ;)

If the OP's story is true word-for-word, it seems to me that the deference and respect shown to this woman by her younger peers may not have been the deference and respect shown to someone "with the heart of a slave".  It seems a little more likely to me, as someone who actually has a clue of what sort of atrocities were committed historically, that this was the deference and respect shown to someone with the heart of a survivor.

There's also an issue of the deference and respect which younger dancers tend to show those who train them.  I certainly treated my Lebanese instructor in belly dance as a sensei, and all this BS male-dominance rhetoric about bellydance being rooted in slavery or categorical man-pleasing IS very much a Hollywood version of history, so far as I can tell.  Contrary to the OP's rhetoric--which is absolute nonsense, for the most part--the presence of bellydancing in the harem does not mean that bellydancing is ROOTED in the harem.  A harem is a community of women like any other; bellydancing is historically and ethnographically rooted in communities of women.  Example:  there is a bountiful tradition of Middle-Eastern bellydance which is performed in ceremonies and celebrations FOR WOMEN ONLY--exactly how does that equate to an art form created only and solely for the voyeuristic pleasure of dominant males?

Also, as a side issue--exactly how does the OP explain the analogous dances that MEN perform in these musical and dance traditions?  Were these the traditional dances of harem boys?  And what about the traditional implements that accompany many dances--including canes and swords?  Is it customary for non-consensual slaves to be armed by their masters?

No.  Sorry.  I would be the last person to argue that bellydancers are NOT hot, or that bellydancing slaves are not UBER-hot.  But that doesn't make bellydancing "the art of the slave" any more than stripping is "the art of a slave".  Women of all orientations can exercise sexual power in this fashion--and to be honest, some of the best dancers is ANY erotic dance tradition are always domme!  [:D]

Also, folks--just to return to our multiply tattooed figure of BDSM romance here, who "obviously" had "the heart of a slave" because she managed to give a teenage dom an erection--can we do the math just a bit on all those tattoos she had?  Because if we are talking about a woman covered with tattoos...these are essentially Bills of Sale, deeds of transfer.  Multiple owners in succession is no more the sign of a "good" slave than it is the sign of a good house or a good car.  She sounds more like a lemon, to me.  [;)]  Specifically, a woman who is much more trouble than she is worth.

How often is a slave sold from master to master, receiving a new tattoo at every destination, if she's actually a compliant and willing captive?  How many men here would be willing to part with a slave who served them willingly and happily and skillfully?

Sorry to interrupt the wank festival.  I won't even begin to detail some of the horrors that a real Armenian slave would likely have experienced or witnessed in the course of being captured and "made to serve".  I would be willing to bet that the most submissive woman present here would gladly cut the throat of any "master" who decided to assert his male sense of entitlement by butchering her family in front of her eyes before establishing their oh-so-sexy BDSM relationship.

No matter how you slice it, genocide and non-consensual slavery are really not sexy in my book.  Even when the victims look great in a choji.  And for the record, this goes both ways:  I also don't particularly want to read any posts from submissive men or women who are glamorizing the "incredibly hawt" Nazi war criminal they knew as a wee pup.  Yech.  [:'(]




dawntreader -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 9:09:18 AM)

Wonderful story [:)]




SinLee -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 9:27:00 AM)

*tried to actually read the thread, gave up when it got blown out of proportion*

I've always been fascinated by belly dancers, since the greek festival my mother took me to at a young age. their grace and beauty has never been lost on me... i'm honestly jealous of your experience, and equally of your ability to recall it through your younger eyes without bringing your older points of view through it. it's a beautiful memory, thank you for sharing it.




Pyrrsefanie -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 10:28:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
I dunno.  Even if this story is absolutely 100% true...and I would say the jury is out as to whether or not it is a complete fabrication based on his personal fantasy life, which he is projecting Gor-style onto the most recent historical incidence of en masse non-consensual slavery on record...maybe my sense that this tale romanticzes genocide is based on the monumental amount of male-dominant fantasy worldview being projected onto women that the OP did not personally know, and who probably were not willing to discuss the pain of rape, murder and mutilation with a boy this age.


Funny you should say this, because I'll admit my first thought upon reading this story was "lawl, wankpost!"  But I don't really get that vibe from RS, and making up a BDSM fantasy from an actual genocide just takes a special kind of fuckwit to do... I mean, seriously, that'd be pretty messed up.

So I'm still somewhat out on this one -- I don't know enough about the Armenian culture/history in order to pull out facts to support or disprove the story.




Poetryinpain -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 10:30:28 AM)

RS, thank you. Your story was indeed touching. You presented the woman in all the grace and dignity I'm sure she possessed.

To endure what she must have gone through and still retain her poise and self-confidence took strength of character, and that showed through your words. I was standing right by your 9-year-old self, riveted to the spot. Great writing.

My mother told us of hearing of the 'starving Armenians,' and when the Turks began loudly denying the atrocities of that time, I couldn't believe it.

pip, thank you for that snippet of your memories.




daddyncherry -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 12:09:56 PM)

Wow that gave me chills and brought tears to my eyes. i live in a predominantly Armenian neighborhood and though i have heard about what the Turks did, i really had no idea of this aspect of it. The way she handled her life, with such grace and dignity....the way you responded....

Thank you so much for sharing.




HerLord -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 10:56:11 PM)

Holy Shit RS. What the fuck happened? I go away and all hell breaks down on You?

Well the story true or not, IS well told, and true or not it was NOT about the Armenian anything. It was about a little boys experience with an older dancer.

Simple. It is not always about the adult vision. Sometimes memories and thoughts are just those. Nothing to be disected and digested. Just a memory. And just a story. (RS, I don't even care if it's true, thanx for posting it. For as I said... your telling of it brought to mind memories of my own that can't be tainted by the inflamation of others "rhetoric" (properly used in this instance)

As for the hate mongers...
HEY FUCKERS! I'm over HERE. (I so love a good fight)




proudsub -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/7/2008 11:30:08 PM)

I wasn't going to read this because my first thought was what does unconsensual slavery have to do with BDSM.  But i am glad i read it, very moving, thank you for sharing.




ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/8/2008 12:43:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HerLord
Holy Shit RS. What the fuck happened? I go away and all hell breaks down on You?

Everyone sorta’ ignored the troll.  Her misinformation is as obvious as her motives.  Insulting a thread and saying it "romanticizes genocide" when it “memorializes” a slaves life amidst the loss of 1.5 million Armenians, the displacement of their culture and the burning of their museums only serves to show she didn’t read it.  Although the environment in which this story takes places includes genocide, this isn’t a genocide thread nor was that the point of the story as you pointed out.  I’m sure if lowly dumb-ass dudes like us can keep our eye on the ball, most of the other readers can too.

As to the “wank festival” comment, it’s like saying The Pianist was about “hawt Polish prisoners”.  There is no more wank factor in any of this than there are “hawt Jewish prisoners” in Schindler’s List.  I'm pretty sure ShaktiSama is pretty much alone in thinking that a 9 year old boy is fuck-bait for a 60 year old woman and the situation is a wankable topic.  Also, ignorantly tossing out troll bait while trying to further hijack this thread in the name of “Gor”, “genocide”, feminism and “Nazi criminals” is just fucking ridiculous.  I have faith in our fellow CM forum members to see these things as obvious. 

Like I said in the beginning, “For those that don’t get it, please don’t try.  Accept it as one of life’s mysteries.”  I said that because if you don’t have a heart, you won’t get the story.




Pyrrsefanie -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/8/2008 12:48:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HerLord
As for the hate mongers...
HEY FUCKERS! I'm over HERE. (I so love a good fight)


Internet fights are nowhere near as gratifying as bar fights.  You can't shank anybody with a broken beer bottle over the internet.  [sm=boxer.gif]




HerLord -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/8/2008 1:26:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyrrsefanie

quote:

ORIGINAL: HerLord
As for the hate mongers...
HEY FUCKERS! I'm over HERE. (I so love a good fight)


Internet fights are nowhere near as gratifying as bar fights.  You can't shank anybody with a broken beer bottle over the internet.  [sm=boxer.gif]


Dammit... I knew some one was gonna have to point out the obvious and ruin my entire fucking day. I am gonna have to invent the "cyber shanker". LOL[sm=sodoff.gif]




KatyLied -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/8/2008 6:27:11 AM)

quote:

For those that don’t get it, please don’t try.


Thank you for telling us what we can and can't be allowed to reason through, believe or discard.




ShaktiSama -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/8/2008 7:58:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Everyone sorta’ ignored the troll.  Her misinformation is as obvious as her motives.  Insulting a thread and saying it "romanticizes genocide" when it “memorializes” a slaves life amidst the loss of 1.5 million Armenians, the displacement of their culture and the burning of their museums only serves to show she didn’t read it. 


Oh, I read it.  Unlike the rest of your audience, I am simply not ignorant enough to believe it.  You see, I'm actually familiar with the details of the Armenian genocide--which IS the historical event which would have provided the historical backdrop for your charming tale of wonderful, wonderful romantic non-consensual slavery.  An experience, we must note, which seems to produce nothing more than women with hawt tattoos, good dance skills and a never-ending desire to please men.  [:'(]

Given the details of the real life events that are invoked by your narrative--to those who actually know what the HELL you are talking about--I find it amazing that the average "non-consensual slavery" experience in this case was coincidentally inflicted on a woman who happened to have "the heart of a slave" and years later still knew just how to speak to a "young master".  I find it equally amazing that she would consider a boy of her own people and many years her junior to be automatically her master and superior, and would respond positively in a D/S fashion--given that the men who enslaved Armenian women were Turks, whom surviving Armenians deeply hate to this day, and that slavery was never viewed with affection by those who survived it--including women who fled after having been forced to bear children, etc..

Also, since the rest of your audience seems to be so very, very bad at math--let's do some more of it, shall we?  Because another male dominant on this forum just pointed out to me that you are listed as 51 years old, born in 1956 or 1957, and that these events were purported to take place at age 9.  This places the year of this meeting at 1965-66,  and given that the Armenian massacres ended in 1918, and the woman you're talking about was minimally 50...exactly how common is it for any Armenian matron, including a multiply violated former slave, to walk about so completely unclothed while preparing for a dance recital that all of her slave tattoos would be visible?  Especially given that traditional Armenian folk dances, including those adapted from Greek and Middle Eastern styles, are performed in dresses that sheathe the entire body and are further augmented with a flowing skirt, headpiece, etc.?

Sorry, but no.  I don't buy it.  You may well be Armenian.  You may well have had your first D/S sexual thoughts or fantasies triggered by the tales of slavery, rape and torture that emerged from the Armenian genocide, if you were hearing those stories as a child.  But at the end of the day, tyou are just a spoiled American-born wanker, like the people who beat off over Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS.

Furthermore?  The agenda you are trying to support about women's dance in general and bellydance in particular as being by definition "slave arts" is incredibly anti-factual and actually pretty repellent.  The person spreading lies on this forum is you, buckaroo.  And anyone who cares will not have any difficulty informing themselves in this matter.  Information about Armenian dance, Armenian culture, and the details of the Armenian genocide are about as far away as the Google search engine.  Middle Eastern, Greek and east Indian dance has also enjoyed a very rich and detailed history of scholarship--it will not be hard to confirm the statements I have had about dance as a communal event, often by women and FOR women.

It's pretty easy for people to figure out who's lying here, if they care to.  You'd better hope they don't.

Next time, I'd suggest you try Gorean fan fiction.  There's nothing wrong with your prose skills.  You just shouldn't try to pass fantasy off as fact.




OmegaG -> RE: -=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=- (5/8/2008 8:06:20 AM)

The genocide continues to this day.  You just lost any credibility you may have had with me.




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