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RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 11:31:05 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:


Why, whenever there is a discussion of people entering the US illegally, does SOMEONE have to go back 200 years and say "well you came here illegally too?"  Does that make sense to ANYONE?  We did lots of things 200 years ago that we aren't going to do today.  FFS.

It's called pointing out the hypocrisy of those bigots whining about illegals today. If someone isn't a citizen by their own standards then they need to pack up and clear the fuck out rather than b'ing and m'ing about the brown people doing precisely the same thing their ancestors did.


That makes about as much sense as throwing a pig out a window to make it fly.  I am a citizen because I was born here, I have a birth certificate, yada yada yada.  I did not sneak across the border into Arizona from Mexico. I am not hiding from the law.  That is one example of "my standard."  Those standards don't include what was done 200 years ago, what was accepted by our government 200 years ago, what the laws were 200 years ago, etc.

Using your logic, an awful lot of people need to be shipped back to the African continent.  You gonna argue that too? 

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 11:36:21 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:


Why, whenever there is a discussion of people entering the US illegally, does SOMEONE have to go back 200 years and say "well you came here illegally too?"  Does that make sense to ANYONE?  We did lots of things 200 years ago that we aren't going to do today.  FFS.

It's called pointing out the hypocrisy of those bigots whining about illegals today. If someone isn't a citizen by their own standards then they need to pack up and clear the fuck out rather than b'ing and m'ing about the brown people doing precisely the same thing their ancestors did.


That makes about as much sense as throwing a pig out a window to make it fly.  I am a citizen because I was born here, I have a birth certificate, yada yada yada.  I did not sneak across the border into Arizona from Mexico. I am not hiding from the law.  That is one example of "my standard."  Those standards don't include what was done 200 years ago, what was accepted by our government 200 years ago, what the laws were 200 years ago, etc.

Using your logic, an awful lot of people need to be shipped back to the African continent.  You gonna argue that too? 

Cali


Where do you get that from? African slaves by and large did come here legally, if not voluntarily. By the bigots own standards their descendants are some of the very few true citizens of this nation.

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 11:58:34 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:


Why, whenever there is a discussion of people entering the US illegally, does SOMEONE have to go back 200 years and say "well you came here illegally too?"  Does that make sense to ANYONE?  We did lots of things 200 years ago that we aren't going to do today.  FFS.

It's called pointing out the hypocrisy of those bigots whining about illegals today. If someone isn't a citizen by their own standards then they need to pack up and clear the fuck out rather than b'ing and m'ing about the brown people doing precisely the same thing their ancestors did.


That makes about as much sense as throwing a pig out a window to make it fly.  I am a citizen because I was born here, I have a birth certificate, yada yada yada.  I did not sneak across the border into Arizona from Mexico. I am not hiding from the law.  That is one example of "my standard."  Those standards don't include what was done 200 years ago, what was accepted by our government 200 years ago, what the laws were 200 years ago, etc.

Using your logic, an awful lot of people need to be shipped back to the African continent.  You gonna argue that too? 

Cali


Where do you get that from? African slaves by and large did come here legally, if not voluntarily. By the bigots own standards their descendants are some of the very few true citizens of this nation.


"Bigots?" "Brown People?"
So, let me get this straight, if you want our laws enforced by our inept govt that makes you a "bigot?"
And what exactly are "brown people?" lol
Do they live next door to the "purple people?"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 12:10:17 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		"Instead of trying to control immigration, shouldn't we be requiring those nations where the immigrants come from to do something about EMIGRATION?"

Just how do we "require" another nation to do something?

Ask real hard?

Hope real hard?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

General reply:

Sealing the Mex border is impossible,let alone the expense of trying.That`s a dream.

They`ll get a taller ladder or dig a deeper hole.

The problem is us.

If we put the CEO of Monsanto or EDM (or anyone hiring un-documented workers,especially folks like DomAviator)in the clink for a year(per infraction),seized their property and then gave them 5 years probation(per infraction),this problem would end tomorrow.

Done.

Sugar is right,Bushco,Walmart and the US Chamber of Commerce have us on a race to the bottom.

The only ones who like this are those profiting from that race to the bottom.

The rest of America,the middle class and poor? Fuck`m.

Added: I`ve been in the trades for 30 years and have never hired an un-documented/illegal worker.

Those that do are just greedy assholes,selling American down river for a few extra bucks.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/7/2008 12:17:00 PM >

(in reply to Poetryinpain)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 2:13:54 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		My grandfather hated people of African descent.  HE was a bigot.  That has nothing to do with who I am.  That was who he was.  Calling me a bigot because he was is wishful thinking on someone else's part.   You want me to be a bigot so that you can disclaim anything I say on the subject.
Believe this or not but I have to say that I agree with Owner.  fences are not the answer.  I believe that they can be a part of the answer but otherwise, I am in complete agreement with him.  Take away the profit to the people hiring them and the problem will stop. 

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 6:03:34 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:


If we put the CEO of Monsanto or EDM (or anyone hiring un-documented workers,especially folks like DomAviator)in the clink for a year(per infraction),seized their property and then gave them 5 years probation(per infraction),this problem would end tomorrow.



Uh, no - it wouldnt! First off - I am too smart for that. I don't "employ them" they are day workers / independant contractors / handymen doing odd jobs. The problem with the trades is that they got greedy and priced themselves out of the box. Lets be frank - it doesnt take a doctorate to roll on paint. In fact, no education or ability is required at all. Hence, I am NOT going to pay some greedy SOB $5,000 (which was the estimate) when I can have the same job done by a Mexican day worker for $100.  That Mexican day worker going home with my Benjamin in his pocket is NOT collecting benefits or leaching off the American taxpayer he is EARNING A LIVING to support his family through an honest days pay for an honest days work and THAT is the American way. If that $100 a day dayworker I can hire under the overpass for $100 gets picked up 6 days a week then he is making $30K a year - which he is then spending in our local stores. Trickle down economics.

The problem that too many Americans are facing is greed. You want to earn "the big bucks" then get a marketable skill. Become an airline captain and make $200K a year, become a lawyer and make $300 an hour, dont expect to make it mowing grass or painting houses. If the price is in line Ill gladly hire Americans but Im not giving out $5000 for a $100 job just because some schmuck with a van a ladder and some brushes thinks he should cash in on my gravy train. A fair wage Ill gladly pay. That $5,000 in and out in one day painter doesnt need my job he can rip someone else off and then wait 49 days for the next job because I can get the same work done for $100 by a hard working man supporting his family and thats who I will choose to pay. Yhe $4,900 left in my pocket will trickle down to other segments of the economy - like supporting the single mothers at the local strip club or taking 49 $100 hamburger flights, or buying new toys that I will have to fuel and insure...

Unskilled american workers are pricing themselves out. FYI - the Mexican who mows my lawn is CHEAPER than the 12 year old across the street who thinks his middle school lawn mowing skills are worth $20 an hour with MY mower! He wanted $40 and I can get the job done better for $25 with the Mexican providing his own mower, trimmer, and blower. They arent taking the "good jobs" there arent many (any) illegal Mexicans working Mission Control at NASA, sitting left seat in 777's , teaching school , or practicing law or medicine. They free up americans to get an education and do a better, higher paying job. 

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/7/2008 6:12:19 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 6:09:33 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		DomAviator, if you're "paying" him you're "hiring" him.
One hundred dollars to paint your house and you call other people "greedy?"
People like you "belong" in prison.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 6:11:09 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Wow.  You have some expensive kids in your neighborhood.  $20 an hour?  I would gladly paint a house for 100 dollars if you supplied the paint.  Why?  Because I want to work.  The big problemis that too many people think that its either overpriced workers or illegals.  There are lots of guys like me out there.
I train horses in this area for 10 bucks an hour. That is waaaayyy below the prices most people charge.  When we have so many bookings that I have to turn people away or when gas goes up too high for me to do that, I may raise my fees a bit.  I just need to cover my light bill, my phone bill and take care of my kid.  I don't have to be greedy to do that.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 6:22:10 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Irish yeah I supplied the paint, a commercial airless sprayer, and all tools and materials. Just stopped by the overpass and picked up an  honest looking one holding a sign that said "Painter". (In Houston there are various overpasses and parking lots the dayworkers congregate under holding up signs that say "Drywall" "Landscaper" etc whatever their trade is. (Oh and by the way - for the other poster wanting me in prison - the COPS pointed out the location of the day worker pickup areas. They LIKE them working. If they have jobs they arent stealing and cops like to get a deal too...)

I would gladly hire an american at a fair wage... I mean like I said that $100 a day is 30K a year if a guy works 6 days a week. The problem is this isnt an area where americans will work for a fair wage. My local american automechanic is "$95 per hour or flat rate whichever is greater". Well, you know what - screw him because the licensed Airframe and Powerplant mechanic at the local general aviation airport is $45 an hour and I can get a Mexican owned mobile auto repair shop to come fix it in my driveway for $18... I commend your fair wage for fair work policy and frankly at $10 an hour I see why you would need to turn away biz so the mexicans wouldnt cut into your biz - because your not letting greed price you out.

But yeah can you imagine a 12 year old demanding $20 an hour ($40 a mowing) with my equiptment!) Whats he gonna want when he graduates high school? Chauffer and access to the Burgerking LearJet? LOL 

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/7/2008 6:27:55 PM >

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 6:36:57 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		When I was 16 I cut grass for my bank for 5 bucks an hour.  I would still do it for that.  Its an easy job and lawnmowers don't burn that much gas.  I would try negotiating with the little  .... entrepreneur... before hiring the mexican.  Teach him that mowing one lawnfor 20 bucks isn't gonna do him as much good as 20 lawns at 10 bucks.  They still yeach simple math in your area, right?  He might realize that he can get more by doing a good job slightly cheaper.  
Of course, I won't pay someone to mow my lawn anyway.  I have a lawnmower, a wife and a child, and a gas can.  If my family and I can't mow our lawn, I'll just start grazing horses on it ... again.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 6:52:47 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

That Mexican day worker going home with my Benjamin in his pocket is NOT collecting benefits or leaching off the American taxpayer



          And since you are paying him under the table, there is no paper trail to prevent his wife from collecting welfare benefits, no taxes are being paid into a school-system being devastated by students that don't speak the language, his family goes to the ER at 10 times the cost of a clinic or urgent care.  Lots of savings there, huh?

        Smart?  What happens when one of these unlicensed, uninsured day laborers falls off the ladder and breaks his back out in your yard?  How about he, or one of his US citizen dependants sues you for every nickel you are ever going to earn? 



         I have a lot of sympathy for the conditions that drive people to get to the US by whatever means available.  I also understand the harm they are bringing with them.  Fences are part of it, but more importantly, we need to be working to make Mexico more attractive to Mexicans.  Understand that a lot of the low-end jobs going to China weren't our jobs, they were Mexico's.  Correct that, enforce the laws about hiring illegals, and deport automatically for any criminal offense.  The tide would turn.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 7:15:44 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
        And since you are paying him under the table, there is no paper trail to prevent his wife from collecting welfare benefits, no taxes are being paid into a school-system being devastated by students that don't speak the language, his family goes to the ER at 10 times the cost of a clinic or urgent care.  Lots of savings there, huh?

      Smart?  What happens when one of these unlicensed, uninsured day laborers falls off the ladder and breaks his back out in your yard?  How about he, or one of his US citizen dependants sues you for every nickel you are ever going to earn? 



The Mexicans do not collect welfare benefits... They do not have the proper documentation to do so. That is the specialty of the Katrina Refugee. See the Katrina Refugees - 2-1/2 years later insist there are "no jobs in Houston" which is absolute BULLSHIT. You can go to school here to get a class A CDL license for $300. I did it, even though I have no intention of ever driving a semi, just because I wanted to have the license for bragging rights - "if it flies, floats, or drives I can...." Anyway, I can not drive to the airport without passing at least a dozen companies with signs out looking for CDL drivers. There are jobs out there if you want them - the welfare people dont want them. The mexicans do!

As for the school taxes, nobody - American or latino - who doesnt own property directly pays any school taxes in Texas. There is NO state income tax. The oil companies, private corporate donors, and property owners pay the school taxes - so thats covered by the landlord and included in the rent. As for medical care, the ER argument is flawed. Most people I know - hispanic or not - get their non emergency medical treatment in the Walgreens or Walmart Pharmacies or at the HEB supermarket. Even I, who have great health insurance, will often opt to go get something checked out by the Nurse Practicioner at the supermarket for $40 than to get an appointment and go to the doctor etc. I can swing by the clinic at HEB any time between 8am and 8pm , get checked out with no appointment, get my Rx and have it filled right there and be in and out for under $48 (Visit and 2 prescriptions) which is generally less than my insurance co-pay of $30 for an office visit and $15 for the first Rx and $5 for each additional one from the same visit. 

As for the liability concerns... Well thats a tough one but frankly they would rather crawl away than wait for the ambulance because they will be going home if discovered. Its heartless and mecrenary but if I had one that was going to sue I would have him deported before the case came up. However, the mexicans arent litigious people anyway. They want to work, not to sue...

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/7/2008 7:17:36 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 7:23:02 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Don't bet on that.  They learn quickly.  And they DO use the emergency room because they cannot be legally refused.  WE pay for their visits. 
I used to live in a town with a meat packing plant.  They would bring in the illegals rather than pay American workers * bucks an hour.  I knew too many people who applied for them to even begin to claim that nobody wanted the jobs.  When they got hurt, they ran straight to the emergency room. 

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 7:25:41 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
The Mexicans do not collect welfare benefits...



      Bullshit.  Link

     As for letting him crawl away to avoid deportation, you might want to educate yourself a bit, and remember that every ___ his wife has popped out down at the county hospital is a citizen.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 7:37:53 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

DomAviator, if you're "paying" him you're "hiring" him.
One hundred dollars to paint your house and you call other people "greedy?"
People like you "belong" in prison.


Agreed,Popeye.

If an illegal is a defacto criminal,then hiring him/her is participating in a criminal act.

People like domaviator, should be in jail.

Hearing him parse words and justify this bullshit, is like watching a dog poop.

His justifications sound an awful lot like a neo-con`s, with an excuse for anything and everything,including hurting America.

Where are the patriots?

He said it himself,the Mexican is cheaper then the neighborhood kid.

Contractors haven`t priced themselves out of the market.That`s self serving bull-shit pseudo-economic analysis.

What the market will bear is what the price should be.Hiring illegals is cheating,period.Cheating America and cheating Americans.





Folks,until we fix this problem on our side of the border,greedy people are going to take advantage of us.

If people like domaviator don`t see what the big deal is,we should show them what the big deal is, in criminal court.

I say anyone hiring an illegal/undocumented should be held legally liable and charged with a criminal act with a mandatory minimum sentence.

The problem would evaporate overnight.Poof.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/7/2008 7:46:16 PM >

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 7:46:30 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
The Mexicans do not collect welfare benefits...



   Bullshit.  Link

  As for letting him crawl away to avoid deportation, you might want to educate yourself a bit, and remember that every ___ his wife has popped out down at the county hospital is a citizen.


Thats California and I can totally see why you are outraged then but thats liberal politics at work - open the buffet and people will feed. In Texas one who doesnt have the proper documentation had best not even think of getting into a govt office. I, who could not even be remotely by the wildest stretch of the imagination with my appearance and last name, be mistaken for a Hispanic had to produce my previous out of state drivers license, my pilots license, a US passport, an ORIGINAL birth certificate, and an ORIGINAL social security card to get a Texas driver's license. I dont know whats required to collect welfare as I never have and never will... But to get into school my ex-wifes kids needed original birth certificates and social security cards, and equivelant paperwork on the mother - even though she was a teacher in that very same district! Then again, we are a conservative state.... I dont know whats going on in Cali, but here they are hard working honest people doing a damn good job for a fair days pay and our lives would be worse without them.

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/7/2008 7:50:48 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/7/2008 7:56:53 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
When they got hurt, they ran straight to the emergency room. 


Was the emergency room the only thing around or did you have these nurse practicioner staffed clinics in the pharmacies and supermarkets? Like I said - I have health insurance, and a great doctor. (FAA Designated Medical Examiner in fact, who I must - by law see every 6 months) However, if Im sick Im going to HEB not him cause I want my Tamiflu, or Amoxicillin or whatever NOW not a week from Wends at 10am... For $40 + $4 a prescription it is so convenient to have it open 8-8 on a walk in basis. If things like that arent avaialable - you cnat blame them for not using it.

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/8/2008 7:36:18 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		There were at least 4 doctors with offices in town and then there was the hospital. Two of the doctors are excellent physicians and 2 are drug pushing quacks who scare the hell out of me.  There were options.  We didn't have the medical care in Kroger or Piggly Wiggly but we had options.  They took the free one and abused the system.  You may not like to believe it but it is going on every day.  I'll bet it even goes on in your area whether you see it or not.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/9/2008 2:30:28 PM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		I am sort, umm..kind of, well, my grandfather, you see, nobody knows much about him.  We know he came from England, and his sister once mentioned to my mother that he was an officer in the british royal navy, but really nobody knows for sure.  He told my mother when she was young that he jumped ship in New York one day. He showed up in the midwest sometime before cars were taking over the road, and bought himself a farm, and started a great big old family.  Technically an illegal immigrant.

My father's side, though, we can trace back to the revolution.   I'm not much for them doing it this way, though.  The world was a different place, then, and had a whole different way of operating.  If it matters so much to come here; work, learn, and grow.  Better yet, change your own country instead of taking over someone elses.  Life is about choices and decisions.  Make good ones.

_____________________________

Congratulate me...I'm a missus!!

--nobody's resident anything.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Arizona Rest Area - 5/11/2008 9:33:23 AM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

Technically speaking, didn't we slaughter the original 'legal' immigrants to North America wholesale in the first place?

I'm just sayin'.



No they are themselves illegal, bastards crossed bering straight area throug alaska from Siberia...

(in reply to Real_Trouble)
Profile   Post #: 60
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