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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 10:19:30 AM

Leatherist

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Just shows that cops are human. These guys got pinned to the wall for it-on suspension and up on assault charges.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 4:30:42 PM

tigerstyle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

The three men in the car were not suspects in the police officer shooting, and this is just another example of police officers acting like thugs. There is absolutely no justification for incidents like this. I get tired of hearing how hard it is to be a police officer. It's a voluntary job, and they know the risks going in. Hell, convenience store clerks and cabbies get killed more often than cops. So if their job sucks so bad, they can quit. Cops that pull this kind of crap should be fired and put on trial.

Agreed.

It's not really that dangerous a job, not compared to miners, loggers, pilots, fishermen, etc.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 4:55:12 PM

kittinSol

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And firemen.

Or how often do we see doctors or nurses kicking the shit out of annoying patients? They're underpaid and overworked in a high responsibility job too.

Yep. Some those cops that think they're inside the latest version of Grand Theft Auto need some serious rehabilitation - and perhaps the police authorities should be more discerning when choosing candidates too. Makes sense, no?

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 7:28:07 PM

Irishknight

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Nineteen years ago, a cop in Baltimore (whose name I never knew) was kind enough to warn me to get out of an area that was fast becoming too hot. The intersection where this officer and others stopped armed felons only moments later was marked by three things that night: my black marks as I hauled ass out of it, a handful of deaths that we heard about on the news that night, and one act of duty that may have saved my life.
In 1995, a Houston police officer stopped to clear a number of people away from a gas station that was in the line of fir of a shoot out with gang members. I was on a telephone at that station trying to get directions from my dispatcher (the lazy bastard was supposed to have guven them to me before I ever hit Houston) so that I could deliver my first load as a truck driver. As I did my best to squeal the tires of a ragged tractor trailer, I saw him join his fellow officers at a barricade forming on the opposite side of the underpass.
Yeah, their jobs aren't dangerous.
That danger in no way excuses what happened but to say that their jobs aren't dangerous is a lie.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:08:16 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Or how often do we see doctors or nurses kicking the shit out of annoying patients?

Ummm... Kitten? They have far more permanent ways of dealing with annoying patients. Here was one

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:21:16 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

That danger in no way excuses what happened but to say that their jobs aren't dangerous is a lie.

Dangerous compared to what? You said you used to be a trucker. Well hell you ought to know, truckers get killed way more often than police officers. In the interest of fairness, let's exclude industrial accidents and traffic fatalities from the list. Of the people most likely to be killed by criminals, pizza deliverymen, cab drivers, and convenience store clerks have the cops beat hands down. Of course, you don't hear these people whining and excusing criminal behavior because of the stresses they face at work. Cops have weapons, they have contact with radio dispatchers, they have backup. The poor guy clerking the register at your corner quick stop doesn't have anything. He is alone, and he gets paid nothing. He's thought of so lowly in this country, that scummy pieces of garbage don't think twice about walking in and blowing them away for $100. So I don't want to hear these sob stories and excuses from cops.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:22:16 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

The three men in the car were not suspects in the police officer shooting, and this is just another example of police officers acting like thugs. There is absolutely no justification for incidents like this. I get tired of hearing how hard it is to be a police officer. It's a voluntary job, and they know the risks going in. Hell, convenience store clerks and cabbies get killed more often than cops. So if their job sucks so bad, they can quit. Cops that pull this kind of crap should be fired and put on trial.

This is the kind of sentiment I will never understand. You have no compassion at all for people who devote their lives to ensuring you can sleep at night. That's just sad.

What if all the cops took your "just quit" advice? Then what would you do?

Personally, after seeing what the occupants of the car were being pursued for, I'm alright with the cops doing this. In the words of Sly Stallone from Demolition Man "You have to send a maniac to catch a maniac."

We aren't going to stop thuggish criminals with flowers and candy. You have to give them what they deserve. And when one of those cops who has sworn to spend his life protecting others gets killed by some thug, I'm alright with that thug skipping trial and jail and taking on in the head for his trouble.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:28:13 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
It's not judgment to expect law enforcement officers to OBEY THE LAW. I don't give a shit what their reasons are. Beating the hell out of someone who is in handcuffs and laying on the ground is COWARDLY. It's considered 2nd degree battery in my state, which is a felony. It has different names in other states, but it is a crime none the less. I don't want to hear this horse manure about not understanding them. I do understand that it's a shitty job, that's why I don't do it. All of these guys know what they are in for when they take the civil service exam. They know they will be dealing with the scum of the earth, and they won't be getting paid much for it. If they don't have the patience to deal with these people, than they shouldn't do it. If they hate their job that much, then they should quit. I don't need to do what they do to understand. I don't need to be a firefighter to understand that fire is hot.

By your own logic here, no one should be upset over death. Teachers are increasingly becoming victims of violent attacks....so what? They read the news, it's dangerous out there, they knew that when they became teachers. Night clerks are getting shot in robberies....so what? They know they can be robbed, they took that risk when they became a clerk. Cab drivers are getting shot and killed....so what? They knew the risks when they took the job. Office towers fell down and killed thousands.....so what? They knew working that high up had risks and that they could be killed. So a bunch of UM's are being abused and killed do to neglect......so what? They knew the risks when they decided to be born. If they didn't want to be abused, they shouldn't have existed.

Yeah right? Sounds rediculous now, doesn't it?

Since when should we expect to die simpy because of our job? When did it become OK to kill someone based on what their job was and the fact that they should have "known it before they signed up?"

That line of thought is utterly assinine.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:32:30 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

This is the kind of sentiment I will never understand. You have no compassion at all for people who devote their lives to ensuring you can sleep at night. That's just sad.

What if all the cops took your "just quit" advice? Then what would you do?

Personally, after seeing what the occupants of the car were being pursued for, I'm alright with the cops doing this. In the words of Sly Stallone from Demolition Man "You have to send a maniac to catch a maniac."

We aren't going to stop thuggish criminals with flowers and candy. You have to give them what they deserve. And when one of those cops who has sworn to spend his life protecting others gets killed by some thug, I'm alright with that thug skipping trial and jail and taking on in the head for his trouble.

What would I do if bad cops quit? I will do the same thing I have been doing for some time now; I'll protect myself and be happy that thuggish, neanderthal assholes aren't running the streets hiding behind their badges. If someone breaks into my house tonight, I will be the one that has to deal with him. The police wouldn't show up until after the crime was over with. You say you have no problem with cops acting like this, but you'd feel different if it was you laying on the ground getting your head stomped in. How often do police officers get the wrong guy? How often do they act like complete pricks on power trips when they pull you over? I can't believe you quoted a shitty Sylvester Stallone movie to make your argument. Since you're trying to dumb down the argument, why not quote Chuck Norris or Steven Seagal when you talk about our foreign policy?

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:38:16 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Since when should we expect to die simpy because of our job? When did it become OK to kill someone based on what their job was and the fact that they should have "known it before they signed up?"

That line of thought is utterly assinine.

I never argued such a thing. I said that criminal behavior shouldn't be excused because of job stress. I don't care how you feel about the people these guys pulled over. The police don't have the right to beat the shit out of them when they are laying on the ground in cuffs. A lot of people piss me off during the course of my day. But I live in a civilized society. I hold my temper and resist the urge to beat the shit out of them. Otherwise, I'd be sitting in prison. Cops don't get a free pass because of their jobs.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:39:09 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
What would I do if bad cops quit? I will do the same thing I have been doing for some time now; I'll protect myself and be happy that thuggish, neanderthal assholes aren't running the streets hiding behind their badges.

And in many states, protecting yourself in this fashion will land YOU in jail. Good luck with that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
You say you have no problem with cops acting like this, but you'd feel different if it was you laying on the ground getting your head stomped in.

The difference is, I wouldn't be running from the cops and shooting up a neighborhood. When and if the day comes where I am ordered to stop and get out and lay down, I shall jump on the ground with un-natural speed so that they know I am NOT a threat and NOT resisting in anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
How often do police officers get the wrong guy? How often do they act like complete pricks on power trips when they pull you over?

Arresting the wrong person is not even the same thing as beating someone up when they've been chasing him for blocks, getting shot at and their adrenaline is flowing. Their adrenaline wouldn't be flowing if the "wrong guy" doesn't run and fire back at them. Can cops be pricks? Sure, some can. So why would you give a prickish cop more of an excuse to say you were resisting? Common sense would seem to dictate that if you think the cop is acting like a prick, and that same cop has a gun pointed at you, regardless of your opinion of the situation or the cop, you OBEY WHAT HE TELLS YOU TO DO, or you GET SHOT.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I can't believe you quoted a shitty Sylvester Stallone movie to make your argument. Since you're trying to dumb down the argument, why not quote Chuck Norris or Steven Seagal when you talk about our foreign policy?

I responded in a manner appropriate to the level of idiocy I read in the post I replied to. If you don't like it, too bad. I'm not going to break myself to reply "intellectually" to a post as ridiculous as the one I replied to.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:40:45 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I never argued such a thing. I said that criminal behavior shouldn't be excused because of job stress. I don't care how you feel about the people these guys pulled over. The police don't have the right to beat the shit out of them when they are laying on the ground in cuffs. A lot of people piss me off during the course of my day. But I live in a civilized society. I hold my temper and resist the urge to beat the shit out of them. Otherwise, I'd be sitting in prison. Cops don't get a free pass because of their jobs.

Actually, this is what you said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I get tired of hearing how hard it is to be a police officer. It's a voluntary job, and they know the risks going in.

That implies that it's OK to kill the cops or in some way is NOT OK for them to be upset at losing a fellow officer because they "knew the risks going in."

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:43:08 PM

Irishknight

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And I said the same thing that many others have said. No free pass. Never have I said that they get any excuse. But to call their job safe is a disservice to all cops, not just bad ones. Cops don't wear bullet proof vests for nothing. Don't insult those doing the right thing because the thugs are out there in similar uniforms. That was my point.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:46:35 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

And I said the same thing that many others have said. No free pass. Never have I said that they get any excuse. But to call their job safe is a disservice to all cops, not just bad ones. Cops don't wear bullet proof vests for nothing. Don't insult those doing the right thing because the thugs are out there in similar uniforms. That was my point.

Well said.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 8:53:12 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

And in many states, protecting yourself in this fashion will land YOU in jail. Good luck with that.

In what fashion? Self defense is clearly protected under common law in all jurisdictions of the United States.

quote:

The difference is, I wouldn't be running from the cops and shooting up a neighborhood. When and if the day comes where I am ordered to stop and get out and lay down, I shall jump on the ground with un-natural speed so that they know I am NOT a threat and NOT resisting in anyway.

The concept of presumption of innocence must be a foreign one to you. Cops aren't judges. I know it must seem that way in the Sly Stallone movies you love so much, but they aren't. You don't know if these guys did this. You only know what the police are claiming. Of course, police never lie on reports do they?

quote:

Can cops be pricks? Sure, some can. So why would you give a prickish cop more of an excuse to say you were resisting? Common sense would seem to dictate that if you think the cop is acting like a prick, and that same cop has a gun pointed at you, regardless of your opinion of the situation or the cop, you OBEY WHAT HE TELLS YOU TO DO, or you GET SHOT.

Where did you see anyone shooting at the cops in this video? By your argument, you should just let the cops do whatever they want to you. Do you remember that little incident at Ruby Ridge in the early 90's? Hell, why not just let the authorities completely abuse their power and kill your whole family? You can always argue your point in court later. I am not a sheep. I don't have to OBEY anyone in this country. It's sad that so many people are willing to give up their liberties for the illusion of safety.

quote:

That implies that it's OK to kill the cops or in some way is NOT OK for them to be upset at losing a fellow officer because they "knew the risks going in."

No it doesn't imply that. It implies that they don't have a right to violate the law because they are upset or pissed off.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 5/8/2008 8:54:42 PM >

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 9:11:53 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
The concept of presumption of innocence must be a foreign one to you. Cops aren't judges. I know it must seem that way in the Sly Stallone movies you love so much, but they aren't. You don't know if these guys did this. You only know what the police are claiming. Of course, police never lie on reports do they?

Where did you see anyone shooting at the cops in this video? By your argument, you should just let the cops do whatever they want to you. Do you remember that little incident at Ruby Ridge in the early 90's? Hell, why not just let the authorities completely abuse their power and kill your whole family? You can always argue your point in court later.

Well, let's see. When a cop sees a guy shooting up the place, they are then allowed to kill him. They don't need to prove that he is the one holding the gun that is firing at them, they just pull their gun and open fire.

Here's an excerpt from the news story:
"Police watched as four men got out of a gold Mercury Grand Marquis and walked to the corner. One of them then fired upon three other men standing on the corner. The man who fired took off running and his three companions got back in the Grand Marquis and drove off, with police in pursuit, Ramsey said."

That means that witnesses saw them get out of their car, fired at a group of men on a corner, get back into the car and speed away with the cops in pursuit. Seems to me they have then become a danger not only to the public, but to the cops as well. This wasn't a simple traffic stop where they were beaten for no reason. This was a situation where the cops witnessed a violent act, tension ran high and they caught the guys and then over did it during the arrest.

Guess what. News flash. Cops are human. Deal with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I am not a sheep. I don't have to OBEY anyone in this country. It's sad that so many people are willing to give up their liberties for the illusion of safety.

Here's where you're wrong. If a cop tells you to do something, and you don't do it. You are now guilty of a crime. If a cop tells you to sign a traffic ticket and refuse, guess what. You're going to jail. If a cop is pointing a gun at you and you have your hands in your pockets and refuse his commands to remove them. He can and will shoot you because he thinks you have a gun.

Look up some laws, dude. In this country you are required to obey an officer of the law when he gives you a lawful command. Sure you don't "have to" but then you DO have to deal with the consequences of your disobedience.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 9:13:28 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
No it doesn't imply that. It implies that they don't have a right to violate the law because they are upset or pissed off.

Back pedal all you like. You said what you said. The inference is entirely up to the one reading your statement. No one ever said the cops have the right to violate the law. But to say they can't have emotion when one of their own has just been murdered for no reason is absolutely ridiculous.

Tell you what. When one of yours gets murdered, let's see you remain stoic and emotionless.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 9:23:29 PM

Irishknight

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Actually, refusing to sign a traffic ticket just means that you have no chance to fight it in court in most states. Most cops will just tear it off and hand it to you unsigned and you are still just as bound by it as if you signed it. Its no different than leaving a parking ticket on your windshield. Your actions when refusing to sign it may land you in jail. If you so much as poke him with your finger, that becomes assaulting an officer if he wishes to push it. Spitting on them is also assault.
Just like you don't have to allow them to search your car. It is not "probable cause" to say no. If they tell you to stay and wait for a drug dog, refusing that is considered probable cause. My policy is that if the officer is cool with me, he can search all he wants. If not, I'll wait for the drug dog. There is nothing in my vehicle for the dog to hit on so it will be a waste of his time for being a prick.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 10:06:38 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
Actually, refusing to sign a traffic ticket just means that you have no chance to fight it in court in most states. Most cops will just tear it off and hand it to you unsigned and you are still just as bound by it as if you signed it.

Actually, The traffic ticket contains an actual notice to you of a pending court date at which you must appear. By signing the ticket, you are providing an acknowledgment of receipt of the "notice to appear." Since the officer is charging you with a violation of law, he could take you into custody. By signing the traffic ticket, you avoid being taken into custody at that time, and are "released on your own recognizance" pending the court date. It is better to sign the traffic ticket and go about your business pending the court date. By signing the traffic ticket, you remain free and retain the right to show up at the hearing to contest the issuance of the citation or summons.

A person is free to refuse to sign the traffic ticket; however, the police officer is free to place him/her under arrest and take him/her into custody.

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RE: Philadelphia Cops Bend it Like Beckham - 5/8/2008 10:48:30 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Here's where you're wrong. If a cop tells you to do something, and you don't do it. You are now guilty of a crime. If a cop tells you to sign a traffic ticket and refuse, guess what. You're going to jail. If a cop is pointing a gun at you and you have your hands in your pockets and refuse his commands to remove them. He can and will shoot you because he thinks you have a gun.

Look up some laws, dude. In this country you are required to obey an officer of the law when he gives you a lawful command. Sure you don't "have to" but then you DO have to deal with the consequences of your disobedience.

No, you need to look up the law. A cop can't shoot you legally because you refuse to take your hands out of your pockets. I don't know where you got that morsel of knowledge at, but it's not true. If I refuse to obey the orders of a police officer, I AM NOT GUILTY OF A CRIME. No one is, it's called the presumption of innocence. Only courts decide guilt, not the cops. Signing a traffic ticket is not an act of obedience. It's a contract saying that I agree to either pay the fine or show up to court for the preliminary hearing. Refusing to sign it does not make you guilty of a crime; it makes you uncooperative and the police can hold you for the hearing. Pretrial detention is not the same thing as a conviction.

Like I said about the story, you are reading what the police said in their report. You have no idea if they are telling the truth. We have a system of laws in place for a reason. The police and all authorities are extremely restrained by our constitution to prevent them from abusing their powers. I think you believe all of this because you are naive. I have been pulled over and had cops try to coerce me into giving up my constitutional rights. I won't ever let a police officer search my car or my home without a warrant. Legally I am in the right, but you watch the reaction of a police officer when you do that. They immediately become assholes. I am aware they are human, so they are perfectly capable of restraining themselves just like the rest of decent society. Murderers and rapists are only human too, but we don't allow them to use that as an excuse for their actions.

quote:

Back pedal all you like. You said what you said. The inference is entirely up to the one reading your statement. No one ever said the cops have the right to violate the law. But to say they can't have emotion when one of their own has just been murdered for no reason is absolutely ridiculous.

Tell you what. When one of yours gets murdered, let's see you remain stoic and emotionless.

I am not backpedaling. I made it perfectly clear what I meant. I didn't infer anything. I wasn't vague at all. You are trying to read into what I said based upon your own biases. I get it, you buy into the "heroic police" mythology.

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