quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
No, you need to look up the law.  A cop can't shoot you legally because you refuse to take your hands out of your pockets. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
If I refuse to obey the orders of a police officer, I AM NOT GUILTY OF A CRIME. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Like I said about the story, you are reading what the police said in their report.  You have no idea if they are telling the truth. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I am not backpedaling.  I made it perfectly clear what I meant.  I didn't infer anything.  I wasn't vague at all.  You are trying to read into what I said based upon your own biases.  I get it, you buy into the "heroic police" mythology.

quote:

Again, you're wrong. If you refuse to remove your hands from your pockets and a cop feels threatened by you and feels his life in danger, you better expect a bullet, or a taser at the very least. Cops have shot people holding cell phones and wallets while it was dark because they felt threatened. Want to challenge that? Be my guest.

quote:

Wrong again. (Notice a theme here?)
Here's an excerpt from just ONE law that proves you wrong:
1547.13 Failure to comply with order of law enforcement - fleeing and eluding. (A) No person shall fail to comply with any lawful order or direction of any law enforcement officer having authority to direct, control, or regulate the operation or use of vessels. (B) No person shall operate any vessel so as to purposely elude or flee from a law enforcement officer after receiving a visible or audible signal from a law enforcement officer to bring the vessel to a stop.
Here's another:
SEC. 97-35-7. Disorderly conduct; failure to comply with requests or commands of law enforcement officers; penalties. (1) Whoever, with intent to provoke a breach of the peace, or under such circumstances as may lead to a breach of the peace, or which may cause or occasion a breach of the peace, fails or REFUSES TO PROMPTLY COMPLY with or OBEY a REQUEST, COMMAND, OR ORDER OF A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, having the authority to then and there arrest any person for a violation of the law.

Need more?   

quote:

And you have no idea if they are not telling the truth. 

quote:

Let me ask you this.....you see someone you love murdered. Do you let the killer just freely walk away? After all, you ARE human, you're supposed to excercise restraint and not go overboard in this civilized society, right? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

Actually, The traffic ticket contains an actual notice to you of a pending court date at which you must appear. By signing the ticket, you are providing an acknowledgment of receipt of the "notice to appear." Since the officer is charging you with a violation of law, he could take you into custody. By signing the traffic ticket, you avoid being taken into custody at that time, and are "released on your own recognizance" pending the court date. It is better to sign the traffic ticket and go about your business pending the court date. By signing the traffic ticket, you remain free and retain the right to show up at the hearing to contest the issuance of the citation or summons.

A person is free to refuse to sign the traffic ticket; however, the police officer is free to place him/her under arrest and take him/her into custody.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I don't have to challenge it.  You're flat out wrong.  A police officer only has the right to use a weapon is he has reasonable belief that a person poses a threat.  Refusing to take your hands out of your pockets isn't reasonable.  We had a state trooper up here go to prison for it.  They were looking for a murder suspect, and they found a mentally retarded guy that fit the description.  He didn't show his hands, because he didn't understand.  The trooper killed him with a shotgun blast.  Guess what?  The motherfucker went to prison. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Do you understand the difference between being charged with something and being convicted?  I know the law on this from both an academic standpoint and from experience.  I minored in criminal justice in college.  I took classes with police officers, and I know how they operate.  Disorderly conduct is a favorite charge that cops like to use when they have nothing else or when they are stacking charges.  I have been charged with disorderly conduct before when i argued with a police officer, and the charge was thrown out when I showed up with my attorney.   It's a bullshit charge most of the time.  It's one of those charges that police like to use when they have nothing on you.  Have you ever had any experience with the criminal justice system?  It sounds like you haven't. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Read the law.  The burden of proof falls on the accuser, not the accused.  I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Ah a logical fallacy; an appeal to emotion.  Your little scenario has nothing to do with this argument.  Of course I wouldn't just let a murderer "walk away".  I have a legal right to make a citizens arrest in such a case, and I have a legal right to use force to prevent such an act.  You didn't watch the video here apparently.  The men in this video were not resisting.  The police had them on the ground and were continually beating them after they had already been subdued.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
In some states tickets havestatements on there saying specifically that signature is not required.  It just means that the judge will look at your case and say "Why, if you were innocent, were you being so uncooperative?"  Your own post shows later that the words "To cause a breach of the peace" are in the law.    A calm denial is in no way a breach of the peace.  You are correct about the pending court date.  There are also pending court dates on many parking tickets which you don't sign. 
I refused to sign a ticket at a speed trap where I was caught.  I was calm and polite while the officer baited me and cussed at me like an idiot. He gave me my ticket and I went on.  I contacted the Iowa state Ombudsmans office and dealt with the officer's lack of civility and his little speed trap.  The state came out and took care of his little speed trap and he recieved his first step toward losing his police license for his lack of verbal control.  It did help that I had a witness to his reaction.
Had I lost my temper as he was hoping, I would have been arrested and I knew it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Here's where you're wrong. If a cop tells you to do something, and you don't do it. You are now guilty of a crime. If a cop tells you to sign a traffic ticket and refuse, guess what. You're going to jail. If a cop is pointing a gun at you and you have your hands in your pockets and refuse his commands to remove them. He can and will shoot you because he thinks you have a gun.

Look up some laws, dude. In this country you are required to obey an officer of the law when he gives you a lawful command. Sure you don't "have to" but then you DO have to deal with the consequences of your disobedience.

No, you need to look up the law.  A cop can't shoot you legally because you refuse to take your hands out of your pockets.  I don't know where you got that morsel of knowledge at, but it's not true.  If I refuse to obey the orders of a police officer, I AM NOT GUILTY OF A CRIME.  No one is, it's called the presumption of innocence.  Only courts decide guilt, not the cops.  Signing a traffic ticket is not an act of obedience.  It's a contract saying that I agree to either pay the fine or show up to court for the preliminary hearing.  Refusing to sign it does not make you guilty of a crime; it makes you uncooperative and the police can hold you for the hearing.  Pretrial detention is not the same thing as a conviction. 

Like I said about the story, you are reading what the police said in their report.  You have no idea if they are telling the truth.  We have a system of laws in place for a reason.  The police and all authorities are extremely restrained by our constitution to prevent them from abusing their powers.  I think you believe all of this because you are naive.  I have been pulled over and had cops try to coerce me into giving up my constitutional rights.  I won't ever let a police officer search my car or my home without a warrant.  Legally I am in the right, but you watch the reaction of a police officer when you do that.  They immediately become assholes.  I am aware they are human, so they are perfectly capable of restraining themselves just like the rest of decent society.  Murderers and rapists are only human too, but we don't allow them to use that as an excuse for their actions. 

quote:

Back pedal all you like. You said what you said. The inference is entirely up to the one reading your statement. No one ever said the cops have the right to violate the law. But to say they can't have emotion when one of their own has just been murdered for no reason is absolutely ridiculous.

Tell you what. When one of yours gets murdered, let's see you remain stoic and emotionless.

 

I am not backpedaling.  I made it perfectly clear what I meant.  I didn't infer anything.  I wasn't vague at all.  You are trying to read into what I said based upon your own biases.  I get it, you buy into the "heroic police" mythology.   

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

You are completely wrong in your legal advice above, and it needs to be pointed out that by repeating such nonense, you are responsible for anyone who acts on it and gets themselves hurt or killled.
There is no 'look it up' law of when the police can or cannot legally shoot, there is a well known legal concept called 'totality of the cirumstances', and a standard of reasonableness.


The notion cops that should expect to die because of their jobs is also wrong... putting on a badge doesn't strip anyone of the right to self defense, and refusing to comply with orders to not move, or to move a certain way, is well established as reasonable grounds for anyone in the same circumstances to fear for their safety or the safety of others.

Why don't you go over to policeabuse.org and volunteer to ride along with them if bad policing bothers you so much, instead of playing bogus lawyer on the internet?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

Actually, The traffic ticket contains an actual notice to you of a pending court date at which you must appear. By signing the ticket, you are providing an acknowledgment of receipt of the "notice to appear." Since the officer is charging you with a violation of law, he could take you into custody. By signing the traffic ticket, you avoid being taken into custody at that time, and are "released on your own recognizance" pending the court date. It is better to sign the traffic ticket and go about your business pending the court date. By signing the traffic ticket, you remain free and retain the right to show up at the hearing to contest the issuance of the citation or summons.

A person is free to refuse to sign the traffic ticket; however, the police officer is free to place him/her under arrest and take him/her into custody.

In some states tickets havestatements on there saying specifically that signature is not required.  It just means that the judge will look at your case and say "Why, if you were innocent, were you being so uncooperative?"  Your own post shows later that the words "To cause a breach of the peace" are in the law.    A calm denial is in no way a breach of the peace.  You are correct about the pending court date.  There are also pending court dates on many parking tickets which you don't sign. 
I refused to sign a ticket at a speed trap where I was caught.  I was calm and polite while the officer baited me and cussed at me like an idiot. He gave me my ticket and I went on.  I contacted the Iowa state Ombudsmans office and dealt with the officer's lack of civility and his little speed trap.  The state came out and took care of his little speed trap and he recieved his first step toward losing his police license for his lack of verbal control.  It did help that I had a witness to his reaction.
Had I lost my temper as he was hoping, I would have been arrested and I knew it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

The three men in the car were not suspects in the police officer shooting, and this is just another example of police officers acting like thugs.  There is absolutely no justification for incidents like this.  I get tired of hearing how hard it is to be a police officer.  It's a voluntary job, and they know the risks going in.  Hell, convenience store clerks  and cabbies get killed more often than cops.  So if their job sucks so bad, they can quit.  Cops that pull this kind of crap should be fired and put on trial. 

Agreed.

It's not really that dangerous a job, not compared to miners, loggers, pilots, fishermen, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Here's where you're wrong. If a cop tells you to do something, and you don't do it. You are now guilty of a crime. If a cop tells you to sign a traffic ticket and refuse, guess what. You're going to jail. If a cop is pointing a gun at you and you have your hands in your pockets and refuse his commands to remove them. He can and will shoot you because he thinks you have a gun.

Look up some laws, dude. In this country you are required to obey an officer of the law when he gives you a lawful command. Sure you don't "have to" but then you DO have to deal with the consequences of your disobedience.

No, you need to look up the law.  A cop can't shoot you legally because you refuse to take your hands out of your pockets.  I don't know where you got that morsel of knowledge at, but it's not true.  If I refuse to obey the orders of a police officer, I AM NOT GUILTY OF A CRIME.  No one is, it's called the presumption of innocence.  Only courts decide guilt, not the cops.  Signing a traffic ticket is not an act of obedience.  It's a contract saying that I agree to either pay the fine or show up to court for the preliminary hearing.  Refusing to sign it does not make you guilty of a crime; it makes you uncooperative and the police can hold you for the hearing.  Pretrial detention is not the same thing as a conviction. 

Like I said about the story, you are reading what the police said in their report.  You have no idea if they are telling the truth.  We have a system of laws in place for a reason.  The police and all authorities are extremely restrained by our constitution to prevent them from abusing their powers.  I think you believe all of this because you are naive.  I have been pulled over and had cops try to coerce me into giving up my constitutional rights.  I won't ever let a police officer search my car or my home without a warrant.  Legally I am in the right, but you watch the reaction of a police officer when you do that.  They immediately become assholes.  I am aware they are human, so they are perfectly capable of restraining themselves just like the rest of decent society.  Murderers and rapists are only human too, but we don't allow them to use that as an excuse for their actions. 

quote:

Back pedal all you like. You said what you said. The inference is entirely up to the one reading your statement. No one ever said the cops have the right to violate the law. But to say they can't have emotion when one of their own has just been murdered for no reason is absolutely ridiculous.

Tell you what. When one of yours gets murdered, let's see you remain stoic and emotionless.

 

I am not backpedaling.  I made it perfectly clear what I meant.  I didn't infer anything.  I wasn't vague at all.  You are trying to read into what I said based upon your own biases.  I get it, you buy into the "heroic police" mythology.   

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

The three men in the car were not suspects in the police officer shooting, and this is just another example of police officers acting like thugs.  There is absolutely no justification for incidents like this.  I get tired of hearing how hard it is to be a police officer.  It's a voluntary job, and they know the risks going in.  Hell, convenience store clerks  and cabbies get killed more often than cops.  So if their job sucks so bad, they can quit.  Cops that pull this kind of crap should be fired and put on trial. 

What if all the cops took your "just quit" advice? Then what would you do?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
You know there are some people who make police officers jobs harder.. thier days longer.. and just make them want to be a prick.

I think I found one.

Good Gods.

I couldnt even read all of it.

Word to the wise.. yeah that means the rest of you.

If a police officer tells you to do something... just do it. Do not argue, do not bitch. Just do it. It is usualy for safty reasons and it is a standard procedure.

If you are sitting there like a jackass with your hands in your pocket and acting like a nervous crack head we are going to think you have a gun. In the end it doesnt matter if you do or not. If you do not comply it is very likly things will escilate due to the fact when some one refuses they 90% of the time do have a gun. the other 10% are nutters.. and still dangerous.

The reason why the ask you to do things is for thier, and there by your safety. If a police officer feels unsafe in a situation they tend to be a bit jumpy.

Dont complicate it by being an asshole.

Hard for some I know... *smiles*

Gwyn

quote:

And I can show you several stories where the cop shot or tazed someone who made them feel threatened and the cop wasn't charged because it was a good shoot. What's your point?

quote:

As a matter of fact, I have had a lot of experience. Just because you and your lawyer get it thrown out, doesn't mean it's bullshit. It means your lawyer is good. I've had 9 speeding/traffic tickets since '03 and nearly all have been thrown out because I show up with a lawyer. It doesn't mean the law for which the ticket was issued was bullshit. It just means I beat it. Your disorderly conduct charge might have been thrown out, but many are not.

quote:

Read the news. People are shot and/or tazed daily because they made the cop feel threatened. In "some" cases, the cop is reprimanded for his actions, in some cases he is not. Proof is irrelevant when you make the cop fear for his or her life when they have a gun pointed at you. Every time you show me a case of a reprimanded or fired cop who shot someone, I can show you one that was called a clean shoot

quote:

Well, in debates I try to appeal to intelligence, or emotion. In this one, judging by the first post I replied to, I could already see those options were severely limited.

quote:

You know there are some people who make police officers jobs harder.. thier days longer.. and just make them want to be a prick.

I think I found one.

Good Gods.

I couldnt even read all of it.

Word to the wise.. yeah that means the rest of you.

If a police officer tells you to do something... just do it. Do not argue, do not bitch. Just do it. It is usualy for safty reasons and it is a standard procedure.

If you are sitting there like a jackass with your hands in your pocket and acting like a nervous crack head we are going to think you have a gun. In the end it doesnt matter if you do or not. If you do not comply it is very likly things will escilate due to the fact when some one refuses they 90% of the time do have a gun. the other 10% are nutters.. and still dangerous.

The reason why the ask you to do things is for thier, and there by your safety. If a police officer feels unsafe in a situation they tend to be a bit jumpy.

Dont complicate it by being an asshole.

Hard for some I know... *smiles*

Gwyn

quote:

I love it when people who have never done the job a day in thier life profess how safe it is.  

quote:

I never advised anyone here to not comply with a order to take your hands out of your pocket. 

quote:

  I simply said that it would be illegal for a police officer to shoot you or beat the hell out of you over it.  You have every right to complain or assert yourself if you believe a police officer is overstepping their authority.  It's not about making it difficult for the police, it's about asserting my rights as an American citizen.  I am not a vassel of the state.  If a police officer tells me to do something, they better have a good reason for it. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

~FR~

I didn't see that the guy onthe ground had been handcuffed.. maybe I missed something?

not justifying their actions.. but my thought is if some fuckwad is going to shoot a cop, why would they hesitate shooting you? your parents? your child?