RE: Not into the local scene. (Full Version)

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ownedgirlie -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/11/2008 10:28:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: batshalom

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Considering you have called me "destructive" girlie I would still be very welcoming if I saw you at any of the many munches in our shared community.  I figure people are often different on the net than they are in real life and perhaps you are not so judgemental.


For the life of me, I can imagine why she wouldn't accept your gracious invitation.

Seriously, Michael, not to start a snark-fest, but if someone who seemed to take pleasure in battling, belittling, and insulting you, invited you to go somewhere in order for to prove your "realness" to them, would you do it?

If so ... you have my condolences.


Oh I accepted his offer.  Not to prove my realness but because I still think there must be some semblance of a nice person buried beneath all that apparent anger and I was hoping to meet him.  But he has shown his invitations are bullshit, and if that's any indication of the people involved in my local scene, I'm not interested in meeting them.



BitaTruble -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/11/2008 10:42:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny
So, what do you do when your local scene isn't available or appealing? How do you deal with the pressure to be "active in the scene" when that's not very feasible or when it's simply not to your taste?


I suppose it would depend on your motivation. If you are wanting to watch demo's or learn about certain activities or techniques, then you may want to save your pennies and do some sort of annual trek to a national event where you can attend a wide variety of workshops, classes or demo's in a short time frame. If you're looking for flavor, then I can't say enough about Folsom Street fair (held at the end of every September) for a large dose of yummy if you can make the trip out to CA. Leather Leadership conferences are almost always very worthwhile, Burning Man is a creature event unto it's own and unlike anything else around. There's also KinkyKollege and, hell, just google and you'll probably find something that suits your taste and budget.

As far as pressure, I'm sorry that you're feeling that way. Himself and I had been very active for a good number of years in our respective local areas and started a group or two together but have gone back to a more private life now with just a few good friends with whom we visit and I haven't, personally, experienced any pressure to ever do more than I want to do within any BDSM community. I'm happy for the opportunities that being out in the local scene have afforded me, but I'm also quite content to let the next generation take over now and just enjoy the time Himself and I have together. We are more likely to do that occasional annual trek than drive 2 or 3 hours to attend a munch these days when it's just more homey for us to visit those to whom we have actually connected and formed relationships with than to sit in a smoke filled venue with 100 people who we don't know all that well. I'm curious, since you don't attend your local community events, who, exactly, is putting pressure on you to do so? Some screennames in the V/T world?

Little red X up in the corner for those who you bug ya always works wonders. ::grins::

Celeste



Wickad -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/11/2008 11:56:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Or create one sans the control freaks and drama queens in power in the other.


LOL!!

Wouldn't that just be creating another sub-group within the geographic area that is run by an alternate drama queen or control freak?  LOL

In all seriousness, this is basically what I meant.  I appologize for any ambiguity.

Recently, there was a group putting on a munch and they had started charging to attend.  Orignally the fee was to cover the cost of renting a hall for the munch as the number of folks attending had gotten a bit big to hold in a restaurant.  The problem was it had progressed into renting a bigger hall, and paying the fees of people to put on demos, etc.  Some folks didn't like the heavy handed way things were going so ... they just decided to put on an alternate munch at a restaurant and not charge. 

The community in this instance is shifting and evolving.  Maybe one day the original group might decide to just put on a fetish event and the second group might decide to just organize a coffee.  Who knows but that is how communities grow and evolve from my experience.

I hope one day to be out of a job because someone has decided they can do it better - lol.  It would be a sign to me that things were growing and ... it would also mean I could work on other projects and just 'attend' a munch. 

I don't suppose any civic minded soul is planning on moving to Saskatoon anytime soon??  LOL

Wickad



Leatherist -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/11/2008 11:58:49 PM)

At least alternates give more choices. People get to be the worst when they feel they have a state monopoly  ;)



lronitulstahp -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 3:20:26 AM)

quote:

  
quote:


Participation in the scene can also be a way for predators to narrow the prey.  There are dangerous people, posers, scammers and fakes that may be active in the BDSM scene, and genuine, committed, experienced people outside the scene.



Maybe, but if this is your reason for not participating, I can't say I find it an issue that is heavily grounded in reality and warranting not coming out to meet people. 

Is this your in the collective sense?  i am active in my local community, although admittedly not on a large scale...i don't play publicly or with strangers,but i do attend a few events, and clubs, and have a few kinky friends.
post 37 on this thread
quote:

  my local scene is pretty typical i suppose.  There are people there who are really earnest and care about leather issues.  There are petty subs and dumbassed doms, wonderful couples that give you hope, and lovely miscreants and ne'er-do-wells that make it interesing.  A bunch of different types trying to take advantage of limited recources.  i try to support and participate on a small level.  But i wouldn't say i'm very active.

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement...it wasn't a blanket statement on either side.  Most people would see it as intended...there are good and bad people in and out of the local scenes...simply put.



RavenMuse -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 4:01:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Although I can't understand the logic in it, it's your call if you want to make the blanket judgement that people whom you don't know, are 'suspect' - it's neither here nor there, as far as I'm concerned. In the event you're not prepared to budge from that stance, we'll simply have to agree to differ.


On the point that you can't grasp rather basic realitys about the direct consequences of your actions making you 'suspect' in comparison to someone who is far more easily checked out through a whole network of possibly hundreds of people (Archer puts it far more elegantly than I) then We do 'differ'... I actualy don't care that it isn't a point you seem to be able to grasp, it is only you it effects after all. Just as I say, don't start posting about how 'unfair' it is that people won't give you a chance or that they view you with suspicion... those are direct consequences of your choise.

As I pointed out 'suspect' isn't 'guilty' I have met people who hadn't been on the scene, I have viewed them with far more suspicion when doing so simply because they are far less check-outable. As Archer states it is far easier to 'hide' unsavory elements in private.... sure a small group may have a clique effect but the bigger the scene in that area the less likely such negative elements are going to stay hidden..... and London has a HUGE scene, hence My stance.

Refferences are pointless, you are not going to get an unbiased opinion from a refference... a large body of people who know the person is another matter, there will be a range of opinions for good or ill that are easily accessable... and if it is one on scene person checking out another on scene person then chances are there will be at least one or two they know in common... so information can be got from a known source.

Given the choise between person A who is on the scene and person B who isn't.... All other things being roughly equal, I will prioritise the scene person first... they ARE less 'suspect'



SimplyMichael -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 5:20:19 AM)

The vitriol in this thread is a bit surprising!

I have yet to hear anyone say "if you are not in the scene you wicked/bad/evil/a predator" and yet that is exactly how people seem to be taking it.

People hear me saying someone is suspect for not being involved in the scene and imagine me saying they are guilty of something and nothing could be farther from the truth.  I simply want to know WHY they have avoided being involved in it.  There are valid reasons for it and invalid reasons and I want to know which it is.  Same in fact goes for people for whom the scene is the entirety of their existence, they are just as "suspect" to me and again I want to know why they are so involved.

When I said someone is "suspect" for not being in the scene  I want to know WHY they have chosen not to participate.  In my last relationship I spent almost four years OUT of the scene and only played in private.  Currently I attend a munch every other month or so and a party about as often.  The only thing I attempt to attend regularly is a MaST meeting. 

I certainly don't base whether or not someone is "real" on whether or not they have been in the scene but in a place like Sacramento that has upwards of three or four groups hosting events and with San Francisco a short drive away with events nearly every day YES I do wonder why someone involved in BDSM has stayed far away from the scene.

People in smaller towns with smaller groups are a bit more fucked.  If your local group is run by dipshits and the scene isn't big enough to support an alternative, avoiding the scene IS a good sign.  Small groups can be very dysfunctional, back in the days when I first started, our local group was exactly like that. 

The scene has its share of nutjobs to be sure.  I once bottomed (I fell for the "real doms need to bottom to learn what it was like bs) to an officer in The Society of Janus, one of the oldest BDSM groups around, and her reaction was frigging bizarre afterwards and I had to give HER aftercare and I lost a lot of respect for SOJ after that.  However, what happened to me was minor in the real scheme of things and if she was actually dangerous I could have run her out of the scene.

MadRabbit makes a good point that he has a framework of vanilla friends who "vet" him to potential partners.  Nothing wrong with that at all and that is what you normally do in vanilla life.  You meet people through friends and a wide social network and while imperfect, it does provide a good bit of feedback on a partner.  And just like the scene, plenty of people meet and fall in love outside it but it does seem to work for a lot of people.





Archer -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 5:28:41 AM)

Actually MadRabbit the references you hypotheticly mentioned would likely be very good sources of information and would hold quite a bit of weight. They might even get me to a 70 lbs of the 96 lbs of data I need. Past threads I have mentioned that references didn't have to be lifestyle, if handled discretely vanilla references might even prove more usefull depending on the goal.

Leatherist another strawman with the Bundy thing. Set up the worse case scenareo you can and infer that it wouldn't have helped, problem is with or without a community the result can be the same. I count at least 3 times where people have stipulated that it's not the be all end all. But community means they have to fool more people than just their victims. Which means harder to do than just having to fool the actual victim. Something about Abe Lincoln I believe and fooling the some of the people etc... would definately apply.







SimplyMichael -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 5:37:25 AM)

Another thought...

Just like the more extreme nuttery such as "one true way" and "ancient european houses" and the more wacky interpretations of "old guard" tend to get blasted out of the water on the forums, groups serve the same function of moderating the extremes.

There are idiots and assholes here (and who they are tends to depend on your taste and style) however there are plenty of alternative voices as this thread has so amply shown.

This online "community" has less bullshit than the chatrooms here although the forums aren't immune to it.  I look at real life groups the same way, imperfect but they have their good points.  Exposure to multiple viewpoints is a good thing, experiencing how others do things broadens your horizons. 

Think about this, everyone here railing against being involved in real life bdsm communities sure seem to enjoy being involved in this online bdsm community. 



kittinSol -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 5:50:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I simply want to know WHY they have avoided being involved in it.  There are valid reasons for it and invalid reasons and I want to know which it is. 



I am a very suspect individual then. I have never participated in any of this 'local scene' stuff I keep on hearing about (never, ever). My personal dynamics are my own and so far I haven't been enclined to share them with others. I am also reluctant to meet other people purely on the basis of our 'shared interest' in BDSM: it strikes me as contrived and forced. 'Local scenes' probably differ from region to region. Perhaps you enjoy your local scene, but perhaps you'd avoid it like the plague if you happened to live elsewhere?

quote:



When I said someone is "suspect" for not being in the scene  I want to know WHY they have chosen not to participate. 



There you go again... you know, to me it's more suspicious to be a member of a local dungeon than not. My reason for this is that I have always been highly suspicious of membership only clubs: I tend to not like them. Why would I describe you as suspicious for belonging to such an organisation though? I don't know you after all.

quote:



YES I do wonder why someone involved in BDSM has stayed far away from the scene.



Perhaps you have a cautious nature and are  naturally enclined to distrust strangers who are different from you? Perhaps it's a cultural quirk with you? Have you wondered why you feel that way?

quote:



People in smaller towns with smaller groups are a bit more fucked.  If your local group is run by dipshits and the scene isn't big enough to support an alternative, avoiding the scene IS a good sign.  Small groups can be very dysfunctional, back in the days when I first started, our local group was exactly like that. 



I'm sure the small group members in question are delighted to read your opinion of them, but perhaps you have answered your own query as to why some of us avoid participating in a local scene at all. You obviously seem to enjoy yourself... and I'm sure most of us do, in our own way. The beauty with BDSM is that it is not defined by any universal truth.





RedMagic1 -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 5:51:19 AM)

As someone who's not particularly active in my local scene, I have to say that what RavenMuse, Archer and SimplyMichael are saying is perfectly sensible.  In fact, anyone who gets a burr up their ass about it is, well, suspect.

Respect is earned.  If you want someone to take your word for it that you're an expert at something, you're either a con-artist, or you have no idea what being an expert means.  I know what it takes to be an expert at something, and I'll tell everyone straight up that I'm not an expert at anything related to BDSM.  People should be judged based on their observed behavior, especially when the well-being (or life) of another is at stake.  Hell yeah, it's correct to consider me suspect until shown otherwise.

If someone gets all pissed off because others want to stay grounded in reality... well, that says a lot.



batshalom -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 6:00:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Think about this, everyone here railing against being involved in real life bdsm communities sure seem to enjoy being involved in this online bdsm community. 


Actually, Michael, that's a very good point.

For me, someone who fairly well despises the utter clownish drama in my local scene, this place is a good resting / meetling-similar-others place. When I get tired / irritated / whatever I can simply shut 'er down without making an ass of myself, and this place (meaning my contributions to it) is entirely on my own schedule and not tied to my blackberry reminder thingie (which I can't operate anyway).

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
YES I do wonder why someone involved in BDSM has stayed far away from the scene.


Some of us simply aren't as social as others. After I'm done with school and schlumpin' around the neighborhood with the kids, I don't want to socialize any more. It's not just bdsm groups - I don't join any groups at all except the ones I can't avoid, like school. I don't like to be constricted by schedules and once I'm at home, I don't like having to go back out again, especially if I have to drive to get there. (It's ok if I can walk out my front door and be at the neighbor's barbeque in two minutes.) I'm getting lazy in my old age.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 6:04:44 AM)

I fucking give up.

Anyone who avoids being around others is wonderful, any of us who have any participation in the scene are all involved in a conspiracy to fuck everyone else over.

Since no matter what we say, that is all some of you want to hear, I am curious now that I say exactly what you misread me as saying if you now misread that as the complete opposite or some other stupid fucking thing.

I swear to god some of you are going to drive me BACK into the scene!



SimplyMichael -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 6:07:25 AM)

batshalom,

Thanks for the thoughtful response but I am out of this thread. 



Archer -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 6:11:39 AM)

kittensol,

I think your missing some of Micheal's points. (not surprizing Micheal can be tough to listen to, no offense Micheal, I'm tough to take sometimes myself) Micheal says he's suspicious either way joiner or not it brings to mind certain questions. Why or why not join a group, the answer tells you something about the person either way. Have a good reason to join great, have a good reason not to join great. Have a bull reason to join, tells me something about you, have a bull reason not to join also tells me something.


batshalom, I hope you realize I thought I had answered your question within my responses to other folks. If not please forgive that I seemed to ignore them.




kittinSol -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 6:14:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I fucking give up.



What a bizarre reaction...

quote:



Anyone who avoids being around others is wonderful, any of us who have any participation in the scene are all involved in a conspiracy to fuck everyone else over.



Hmmmm, nobody said such a thing. I think many of us reacted strongly to your assertion that our reluctance to participate in anything public was suspicious. If you're going to bandy adjectives like that around, it's only natural that there will be a reaction. I feel it's necessary to remind you and a few others that there are fuckups in all walks of life... and that membership to a club is not a reference of good character.

quote:



I swear to god some of you are going to drive me BACK into the scene!



If you do what you enjoy, if you are happy with your life, I see little reason to get angry or riled up over any of this.



Madame4a -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 6:41:00 AM)

Hmmm... I read the whole thread and still don't get two things...

1) perform?  who performs?  I was out Saturday night at our local dungeon -- while I suppose there are some folks out to show off -- most were much like me, having a wonderful time doing various nasty and lacivious things to people... I saw some amazing scenes this Saturday night... what fun!

2) do any of you who never ever do anything with the public/local/national scene leave any room for the fact that you really don't know what its about until you do experience it?  I find it amazing the amount of people who will say that, but clearly, you have no idea, do you?

I agree with everything Archer said (and others) although I need less than 250 lbs of info on most people.. *grin*

I also think, if you've just stepped out once or twice, you're not giving anything a chance... I don't go to everything every time.. and I think most are like that.. not every meeting, workshop or munch.. or even play party is going to be for everyone, but the next one might be and the crowd might be friendlier



DominantJenny -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 6:41:07 AM)

Obviously, this issue is a hot button with a lot of people. Why? Because there ARE a lot of judgements being made. The question is how much, if any, judgement is reasonable...and it's the sort of issue where intelligent people can end up in total disagreement about what is reasonable. Not knowing someone at all is not the same as knowing someone on-line which may or may not be the same as knowing someone in person (depending on the level of communication and openness, etc, of the people involved) and neither of those is the same as knowing not just the person, but many people in that person's life, whether those people are from the BDSM community or the larger general community. I think there's a good argument to be made that someone who has no personal connections can and maybe should be viewed as (the dread word) suspect until a reasonable reason is discovered otherwise. I, personally, do not think that there is much that can be truly learned from one who's social circle is or involves the local BDSM community that cannot be learned from a similar level of involvement in the general community. Some people think that the little (as others have observed...IF a person's been observed wielding a BDSM implement, one can say they did it well or poorly...assuming that person has good judgement about what equals well or poorly...and one MAY be more able to find people that person has been involved with intimately than in the general community...those seem the main things one can discover as they've been talked about here) that may or may not be learned from the specifically BDSM group is more valuable than I, personally, consider it to be. We both have valid points...and when two sides both have valid points, the best approach is to seek to meet in the middle...for each side to acknowledge that the other point of view is as valid and deserving of respect as their own, even though it's different.
To say, "I find people not active in the local BDSM community to be suspect" is NOT the same as to say, "I see ALL people as suspect until I know X, Y, and Z about them, and I often find the local scene a good way to discover those things, but acknowledge that there are other ways that can be equally successful." One is antagonistic and disrespectful of other valid points of view...the other is not...in my opinion, of course, for whatever you think that's worth.
I started this thread with a complaint (being judged for not being involved in the local scene when I had what I considered (and still consider) to be reasonable reasons not to be) and question (how do you deal with that judgement and what are your alternatives for when the local scene is problematic). Some people defended doing that judging, others seconded my complaint. Many people suggested not letting those judgements get to you, which, while I feel compelled to point out is something easier said than done, is probably ultimately the only truly successful answer to my "how do you deal" question. Few alternatives were suggested, in part because one of the main ones is the one we are all engaging in right here...being active in the online community. I know that I'm glad when looking at someone I'm interested in to see that they've posted in the forums...I can see how they've interacted with others and learn more in depth about their BDSM related thoughts and opinions...which is why I can appreciate that some people get the same sort of knowledge from spending time in their local scene. Both approaches seek the same thing and acheive the same goal. There is an argument about whether it is easier to be "fake" online or in person, and it's not the sort of thing that's going to get resolved anytime soon. Some people, like myself, have a very good eye for people online, and can usually tell when someone isn't all they seem to be, but can be confused by in-person interactions more easily. Some people have the opposite experience. In the end, as some have said here, it's ultimately about what works best for you...and about respecting that what works best for one person is not necessarily what works best for another. The ultimate good behavior, I think, is being willing to meet someone who is out of your comfort zone halfway...whether one is in or out of the scene shouldn't be a dealbreaker or even heavy deal-denter right off the bat...look for the whys and wherefores before you make ANY judgement, no matter which side of the issue you are on.



camille65 -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 7:00:25 AM)

What an odd thread.The OP begins with the thought that there is pressure to join local groups yet that is shot down.Then it really does come out, that pressure that is being said to not exist which obviously does exist and quite strongly from several people. DJ I do agree that there is pressure to prove ones (actually I'm not sure what needs to be proven lol) genuineness or whatever by being out in the scene. I'm one that is wholly uninterested in munches. I don't like parties, I don't do things that are held in the evenings and sure as crap I don't have an interest in watching other people play.Maybe because my relationship with my owner doesn't involve technical play but in reality the reasons only matter to me. Going to events can be fun but my world doesn't revolve around them. I sincerely believe there are two camps here which are being a bit ignored.Those that don't do edge play have no reason to build up a reputation in 'the local scene'.Those that do edge play are much more likely to seek out knowledge of a potential interest simply because it IS edge play. If I were to become unowned I still wouldn't go to munches in my area. I've been, and I didn't enjoy so why would I continue to go back?As someone(s) said earlier they tend to be incestous which is a total turn off to me. Being sub number X to dom number Z makes me cringe. Odd thread, and really I found it to be somewhat revealing (interesting in a not-so-good-way of people) on why I shrink away from bars/dungeons/munches etc.



GreedyTop -> RE: Not into the local scene. (5/12/2008 7:34:36 AM)

~FR~

I haven't waded through all the posts. I did catch a few comments that I will address.

Tampa has a 'scene'. NOt as active as SoFla, from what I know, but it's here, nonetheless.  When I first moved here, I attended a couple of munches and several organized, regular parties. Enough to get 'known'? nah.. you ask most of those people if they know me, their response is likely to be a blank look.
Why don't I participate? Mainly because of my job.  I work evenings. by the time I get done, even though it's technically early enough to still go out, the last thing I feel like doing is going home, changing clothes and then driving across town to the club or whatever. Does that make me any less real? last time I checked, I was still flesh and blood (although I could be a product of my own imagination..LOL)
I occasionally go to events/parties/clubs.  If my schedule would allow, would I go more often? I'm not sure.  I know who and what I am.  I don't need the validation of others to know these things. But there is nothing nefarious in my choice to remain mostly private.

ok, not sure if that made sense, or even had any bearing on anything.. just needed to say it after reading a few comments..LOL



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