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RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 8:52:52 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Using fast reply.........

Very interesting thread and, quite interesting to watch people get their drawers wadded so easily........

I don't belong to any local, or even nearly local group. There is one here in Iowa City that has been kind enough to invite me and keeps me on their mail list. After reading their gathering minutes and topics of discussion I am quite certain that I have very little in common with them.

I can live quite happily without scening with anyone.

I don't feel a burning neeeeeeeeeed to practice any BDSM actions, on just anyone, on any regular basis.

I actually live, what is right now an hour's drive, away from where they usually meet on the weekends. I spend Monday through Friday making that drive back and forth. The very LAST thing I want to do on the weekend is spend 1/4 of my waking hours driving back to the town I work in.......play nice nice.........and drive back.

I have a very full, busy, wonderful life. Only one small facet of it has anything to do with BDSM at all. For me, it is about a relationship structure with a woman. I do not need to meet with a group to tell me how to have a sucessful relationship. Trust me, I've got that covered very well.

On the whole, I really do not like people all that much. I am a picky bitch. I have very little free time and am very choosy as to who I share that free time with. In my 46 years I have found that my animals are better company than the greater percentage of human beings I have met. Some of the people, in my life, are very aware of my relationship style and others are not. Most all of them have nothing at all to do with BDSM. I am cool with that. I have alot of other interests in common with them, that are much more important in the big picture of life........to ME. I have this thing about having a well rounded diverse life. I don't like defining myself or the people I spend time with, by one small facet of interest.

If all of this makes me suspect, well.......I guess I am quite comfortable with that. I lost interest in caring what most people think of me, quite a few years ago and I am not feeling inclined to get back to that insecure place again.

Perhaps my lack of "give a damn" in this regard has alot to do with my lack of "give a damn" about specific activities. I am not really fetish oriented. I could live the rest of my life without ever picking up an implement of ouch, quite happily. I don't ever have to drag out my little bag of clothespins and heavy string to be satisfied. If I never use those cuffs and chains with those eyebolts in the downstairs beams, I am good. If the mice eat my blindfold and my blades rust, my feelings will not be hurt. For me it is completely about the TYPE of relationship I have.....the power exchange.......the trust........having someone submit themself to me. Those are the things I need and crave. To me, that is a relationship dynamic built on great communication and establishing trust. I already know I do that well. I doubt I will learn anything new, from a group of people, who's averaged relationship time frame is far less than my shortest relationship has been.


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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 8:59:32 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordOfTheMad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Leatherist, wake up, nobody here has in any way said or even infered it did, that's your weak strawman argument.
I've even mentioned repeatedly that the community can be fooled as well.
(Repeat that last line as often as you need to to get it through the skull)


I mentioned the flaws even in the post you quoted, stipulated to the idea that it's not a be all end all multiple times but you have chosen the low road of ignoring those. I've been as fair and open minded about people being able to choose whatever way they want to get the information as anyone could be.

Find the place I said being in the scene somehow instantly makes you "safe", or incapable of being a  "predator". , you can't because it isn't there.



quote:

Faced with a choice between "person A" a memeber of the community known by some folks and "person B" private person with no references telling me they are in fact a decent person. [Person A starts off with a significant head start because the information I need to be comfortable with them is easily and quickly available. This isn't to say that I would ignore person B at all but rather that because they chose to remain private it's going to take longer. Up to each of us how we want to restrict information about ourselves. But to do so without thought that the natural consequences may be that someone passes us by (cutting both ways)or that someone else reaches that level of intimacy first and thus we are left behind is short sighted


The point that I believe Leatherist is trying to make is that the information you speak of is completely meaningless and he is citing those rapes as an example to why.



Replace that is with a can be and I would agree with that.

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:00:12 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Loved your post, LaTigress.  Thank you for writing it.

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:00:26 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		#64
Sure there have been serial abusers who have formed their little groups and held sway over a community for awhile but it doesn't take long to find out that is their game....
Please make special note that in no way does this claim there are more predators in either camp, it mearly points out that it's easier to conceal a bad history when you are private, and more difficult to conceal it when you are active in a community.
#94
People with references have a head start (Not a free pass)
I'm not saying to substitute a reference or even 300 of them for sitting down and talking with the person, I'm saying do it IN ADDITION TO the other things we have to do.
A good reference provides a small amount of data, and it certainly isnt the only information I will take into account.
You're tossing up roadblocks that can apply equally to any way of getting to know someone. Nobody is saying a reference settles all questions.
#107
problem is with or without a community the result can be the same.
#114
Why or why not join a group, the answer tells you something about the person either way. Have a good reason to join great, have a good reason not to join great. Have a bull reason to join, tells me something about you, have a bull reason not to join also tells me something.
#126
Yes there are flaws in the reference idea
#131
The person can be inthe scene and a mask wearing jackass or the person CAN be private and a mask wearing jackass.

I count 10 instances where i recognize and stipulate to the idea that in or out of the scene the person could be a predator etc.How much stipulation is required before you recognize it????



(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:02:45 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse


Really? I guess you do seem to have a vested interest in thinking that way but who out of those with extensive experience of the scene has given the impression it is about 'edge play'.... sure if you are looking for someone safe to do edgeplay with then the scene IS a good place to be able to see who is respected for their skill in various play areas.



Huh, I believe that's probably what Camille was trying to say, yes. And I agreed with her. Now you seem to be agreeing with us too. Good.

I have absolutely no vested interest in anything and wonder why you felt the need to add that little tidbit of personal commentary - simply, I'd rather not be called 'suspect' because I'm not into group meetings.


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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:06:10 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		What I always find funny is that the concept of using references to validate people is a concept that I guarentee every person in this thread implicates on a daily basis in their vanilla life, but just probably aren't aware of it or associate what they are doing with "referencing".

We use social proof to develop rapport in all human interaction. The BDSM and Leather communities, with the huge emphasis on safety and "not being outed", just decided to give it a name and bring the concept into a defined institution.

Then all of a sudden everyone has a huge problem with it.

I will gladly point out flaws in a discussion, but I don't kid myself into thinking that I am not collecting references to verify other people.

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:06:35 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		LordofTheMad,

And again I fallback to the basic idea that more information is better than less information.
The odds of being fooled by a predator are directly related to the information you gather.
NOTE NOTE NOTE they never reach a point of certainty in either case in either direction.
It's about stacking the odds in your favor. The more information you gather (again fromany source or method) the less likely you are to be fooled. Community reputation are a source of information, nothing more nothing less.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:12:32 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Any knowledge is good knowlege - agreed. It's actually on my profile page. What people have to realise is that the absence of knowledge about another individual doesn't have to mean that one has to expect the worst from him (or her... ).


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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:15:53 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Agreed it does not make them instantly bad anymore than being a partof one makes one instantly good.
It does make them Unknown or less known, and to many that status is closer to bad than to good, guess that goes to personal outlook about are people generally inherantly good or inherantly bad until proven otherwise. Both sides of that coin have their advantages and disadvantages.

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:16:49 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Huh, I believe that's probably what Camille was trying to say, yes. And I agreed with her. Now you seem to be agreeing with us too. Good.



Your whole attitude makes you far more 'suspect' than not being in the scene.... taking something out of context is so schoolyard level bullshit! I said if that is all you are looking for then sure it is there... but it is FAR more than that and most 'reputations' are not about that at all!


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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:19:03 AM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Wow. Everyone's gotten really worked up about all of this. I don't see why people make such a big deal about their community.

If you want to go to a munch or something, go. If you find that it doesn't work out for you, either stop going, or find a different one. Don't whine to everyone else about how horrible those other people are. If it does work for you, great! Now, don't be an ass and cry FAKE to everyone who stays at home.

Let's take it out of the BDSM context, since I'm pretty sure that's what everyone has their panties in a bunch about.
My grandma sews, knits and does all that other confusing stuff with string. She's pretty damn good at it. However, she doesn't feel the need to go to a sewing circle, or whatever sewing people do. She doesn't go to a group lunch where the only thing she has in common with everyone else is sewing. She's not a member of any kind of sewing website, where sewing experts give her their expert advice on edgeplay knitting.  She doesn't feel a need to, and no one gets all snotty about it.

Now I know at least one of you... I know exactly which one too... is going to say, 'Well, you need to be TAUGHT how to participate in edgeplay!'  Eh. Not so much. If everyone has to be taught, and we are incapable of making up stuff on our own, who the hell came up with it in the first place? If you manage to take yourself out with some flash cotton and a cigarette lighter, you probably shouldn't be contributing to the gene pool anyway. But that's just my opinion.

As far as references go... I've personally never asked for them. If someone comes up to me and offers them, I find it a little odd. I'd like to think that I'm a good enough judge of character to determine if someone is worth my time or not. Likewise, I'd never give a dominant a list of phone numbers he could call to check up on me. I'm not applying for a job here. I don't see the need for a background check. I suppose if it makes you feel more secure, you should go ahead and do it... but I see too many openings for drama and warped opinions to mess things up.

**Edited to say, RavenMuse, you're doing that thing where you patronize anyone that disagrees with you again.**


< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 5/12/2008 9:23:51 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 9:27:12 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Huh, I believe that's probably what Camille was trying to say, yes. And I agreed with her. Now you seem to be agreeing with us too. Good.



taking something out of context is so schoolyard level bullshit!



Nothing was taken out of context... if your cage is rattling, I am not responsible for it.

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 10:28:44 AM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		No offense, but that is a really silly statement. You can no more judge who's truely lifestyler or not by people they know and will  name drop. Plus I respect confidentiality rules, and I will not be telling any one who I've met at events. Which is mainly where I am known from. That breaks confidentiality rules and could possibly out someone who doesn't want to be outed. You are not allowed by the confidentiality clause one signs before joining to state who was at what event. So for instance * using my name*I can not tell you I saw chris moss AKA YHMA at Master's den last night, or yeah I know YHMA From Master's Den.

And really honestly who's qualified to judge what a true lifestyler is to every one. You can only judge for yourself. is a true lifestyler one who wears leather all the time an demands all subs be lower than them, or is a true lifestyler a Mistress who walks around and calls all men worms, or again is a true lifestyler someone who's a die hard an would never miss an event? Who can say.

Plus I don't go to many events and I dispise munches. So are you going to say I am not truely in this lifestyle cause I won't name drop names of those in the scene I have met? Or because I am not well known? Or because I am not protocal based and because I am not submissive but a switch  or because I am not die hard, or cause I never kowtow to my partner? How are you going to define "real lifestyler"

Recomendations are not the end all be all either. they will not always keep you any safer than common sense will. Do not ever hang your entire saftey on recomendations alone. There's a guy on alt who's very friendly has lots of testimonials to what a great man he was and on the first meet he tried to get me to cheat on my partner, and justified it because plenty of people do it and if I don't tell he won't. And it greatly offends me when people think I should basically shit all over my relationship cause we have some disagreements, and we're not doing the level of BDSM I would like.
quote:

ORIGINAL: sasback

As many have already said, local scenes have many positive aspects.  The one thing that has not been mentioned thus far is SAFETY!  Recommendations are key.  Many times it is easy to spot someone not truly in the lifestyle by asking who they know. 


< Message edited by YourhandMyAss -- 5/12/2008 10:32:48 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 10:38:14 AM   
MissJana


Posts: 112
Joined: 6/10/2007
Status: offline 		Being that I am involved with several groups in the local scene, any submissive male that I consider for a personal relationship would be expected to be active as well, if not already.  Have many men contact me wanting to be my sub but don't want to take it out of the bedroom, so they are not for me. If they only want to "play" in private they can pay for a pro-session.  Ms Jana


< Message edited by MissJana -- 5/12/2008 10:39:48 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 10:56:52 AM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		If you want to go to a munch or something, go. If you find that it doesn't work out for you, either stop going, or find a different one. Don't whine to everyone else about how horrible those other people are. If it does work for you, great! Now, don't be an ass and cry FAKE to everyone who stays at home. ~Lynnxz

Exactly right....all the drama and especially from the men....its shocking, really, or would be if i didnt know that this is what happens when you gather more than 3 strong personalities in a room.
i feel better about the partnerships i have made through my local groups. i trust their judgement on future partners and have actually found a comfortable/uncomfortable niche to curl up in for a while.
Information about a person is key to being able to trust them and if you plan to play with someone you havent known for years, its vital that you know how they play and this is something that is more reliably discovered via word of mouth...if you trust the mouth. Anyone can SAY they can work you over safely with a giant stick of lucite....personally i want to see it happen successfully before i present my ass.
On the other hand, there are plenty of really talented sadists who have never seen the inside of a frickin TGIFridays and never will.(Munch reference).
One more word on the Ted Bundy issue...if it is in your destiny to meet and fall prey to the next Bundy then that is your destiny...and ill bet the clerk at Blockbuster thought he was all that and a bag of chips...(comment made for humorous impact...Blockbuster didnt exist and is therefore not responsible for the mass murders committed by said serial killer). One reason people get hurt by another person is that they want so badly to believe and trust that they discard the red flags that usually appear during dialogue. One reason that serial killers are successful and therefore not just singular killers is that they are smooth operators who know how to manipulate and can work a long con.
Trust your instincts and hopefully surround yourself with friends who would like you to remain alive...play safe and be well.
See you at the munch!

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 1:32:57 PM   
LadyKatTuchuk


Posts: 3
Joined: 5/4/2008
Status: offline 		Good is see another Iowan LaTigressee.

Iowa City has a scene? Wow I am truely impressed. Back when I got into the life I could not find anyone in Iowa period. So I relocated to Chicago and entered the 'official' scene there 13 years ago.

Since then I have been part of BDSM groups in Portland OR, Spokane WA, Seattle WA, Las Vegas NV. None of those groups were unique in any fashion. You have the polite people, rude people, new people, and idiot people. Gradually I outgrew my need to associate with any group at all. Plus my life changed to where I had to put more emphasis on my health than I did play. Now the nearest I come to a group of BDSMers en masse is via the internet. And most of them I want to keep right there.

If you want to join the 'group' scene go for it just don't expect to like all the people you go to numches with or watch play. I find 'groups' to be far too into inner-group power struggles and polticial manuverings for my taste.

Be well and Stay Safe
Kat

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 2:44:21 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

On the point that you can't grasp rather basic realitys about the direct consequences of your actions making you 'suspect' in comparison to someone who is far more easily checked out through a whole network of possibly hundreds of people



quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Given the choise between person A who is on the scene and person B who isn't.... All other things being roughly equal, I will prioritise the scene person first... they ARE less 'suspect'



It makes me 'suspect' in your mind, Raven, as opposed to reality.

Being labelled 'suspect', is the consequence of your thought process, and is of zero association with my actions.  

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 3:22:48 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It makes me 'suspect' in your mind, Raven, as opposed to reality.

Being labelled 'suspect', is the consequence of your thought process, and is of zero association with my actions.  


Well said.


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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 4:57:43 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Perform?  Why do you choose this word for those who enjoy meeting others face to face and talking about what we like to do in our intimate relationships?  Most things that we discuss are of a no more intimate nature than what is discussed here on the boards.  We just enjoy doing this face to face with people as well as in text format

OK.  That's interesting that that's what you meet to do.  That is not what ALL meetings consist of, of course.  I'm referring more specifically to public play events, not munches.  No malice was inherent in the "perform" word.  But, frankly, when you get in front of an audience, take your clothes off and do something, in my opinion that's "performing."  I said it in reference to such activities.  And I also made it very clear that if that's your bag, go for it.  I'm just insisting that if it's not mine, I'm not "suspect."
quote:

We also enjoy learning new things to incorporate in his play with us and watching others have fun.  What we don't enjoy is drama and politics

Again, great.  I don't enjoy drama either and that's what so often happens.  My dislike for that overwhelmingly outweighs my desire to go learn things from others at a munch or play party.  That's my right just as well as it's anyone else's right to attend them 7 days a week.  Again, that's my point.
quote:

From my experience, people not involved in BDSM do have a very large community in which to gather information about the people they meet.  Anything from asking another friend what they know about this person they just met, to introducing them to family and then listening to their opinions and perceptions about the person.  I don't think any person makes decisions in a vacuum and they get the advice and opinions of many people before making commitments to a partner.  I just haven't heard them put the same labels to it as people in BDSM, but the actions are still similar

You make my point.  Why can't BDSM'ers do those same things to get their information?  Ask others, introduce them to family and get their opinions, etc.  They can.  But yet, apparently that's not considered (by some here) to be effective enough.  There must be scening, discussion with past play partners, references, etc.  I say "nonsense."  If you want to do all that, great.  Just don't try to insist that it's necessary and that people into BDSM can't get feedback and responses about potential mates the same way "vanilla" folks do.  It's just not rational.
quote:

Are people who engage in BDSM more vulnerable than those that don't?  I don't see how the answer to that question can be anything other than 'yes'.  People who engage in BDSM, regularly engage in activities that could result in significant legal trouble (assualt, kidnapping, imprisonment, etc).  All it takes is a disgruntled partner or someone looking to cause trouble and the consequences could be significant.  I don't think this vulnerability is limited to casual play partners either

Possibly.  But a "disgruntled" vanilla partner can be hell too.  Anyone of any persuasion can lie, accuse, reveal very personal embarrassing details.  It's certainly not restricted to BDSM'ers and I really don't think it's any more common in that realm at all.  Ask any "vanilla" person who's gone through a vicious divorce or break-up.

I stick by what I said.  I'm glad you enjoy meetings, munches, and public events.  I'm glad lots of others seem to.  I do not.  I want no part of it and it sure as hell ain't 'cause I'm "suspect."  It's because what others do is less than irrelevant to what He wants from me.  I'll stay home with Him and learn exactly what He wants and not get all confused by what the masses are enjoying engaging in.  We're happy hermits and you know what?  That's just as OK as public play any day.  Hope life is treating you wonderfully in Canada, Kyra.  Best wishes.............luci

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/12/2008 5:00:15 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
I'd love to.  But you know you're not as "out there" as me until you cause someone's thoughts to violate TOS. 

Who says mine haven't, huh? 
luci

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Profile   Post #: 160
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