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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:02:37 AM   
Justme696


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Looking at my previous post. Interfering might be the leading to a WW3 situation. Many Arab countries actually said they didn't like foreigners on their soil.
And neither do we, so we can't argue about their point.


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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:04:41 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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I mentioned a general statement and you draw conclusions that I supported the invasion of Iraq? Wow, that is a huge leap.

Things can seem however you wish . What currency is oil traded in? This is one of the reason why when oil goes up, it effects the dollar. The higher oil goes the less the dollar will be worth.

Now back to the OP:

So do you have any of the answers to the questions I asked?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

We do pay for the oil, actually you need to look into what is backing the US currency. OPEC could shit all over us in a heartbeat. Pakistan is another country I feel that could be a problem for the region, and possibly the world.

Leave them be? Sorry but global resources are a global concern. We are just not approaching it in a way that is productive.




Before you stopped "letting them be" you had your oil at a much lower price.
Look what is costs now...in dollars and human sacrefice. What did interfering bring you? Nothing at all.
BEfore the invasion...and I am beware there are more reasons....America's financial position was better 

LEt them fight their internal wars...aslong as we get oil.

quote:

  actually you need to look into what is backing the US currency

not oil anymore it seems to me


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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:05:57 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I mentioned a general statement and you draw conclusions that I supported the invasion of Iraq? Wow, that is a huge leap.



sorry...you is not you as person.
Should have been "they"

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/10/2008 10:06:20 AM >


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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:06:28 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Sure we can. There is no universal rule book on what is just and fair. That is a false ideal. The problems were going on long before infidels were in their country though. The elected Iraqi government has not said for us to get out. The invasion is over and a dead issue. The newly elected government of Iraq wants us there for the time being.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Looking at my previous post. Interfering might be the leading to a WW3 situation. Many Arab countries actually said they didn't like foreigners on their soil.
And neither do we, so we can't argue about their point.



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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:13:44 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Things can seem however you wish . What currency is oil traded in? This is one of the reason why when oil goes up, it effects the dollar. The higher oil goes the less the dollar will be worth.


The attachment dollar/oil should make the USA think even more then. The dollar situation even makes China already trade often in euro's.

I did respond to your OP. I answered every single question. PErhaps, as others stated..you should make it more claer what you try to get from us.

Iran 2008...is not Germany 1938 (if you mean that..actually that process started earlier then '38). Because if we would say so...it would also mean..everything the USA would do towards them will be justified. It is a bit to early for that.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:14:24 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Can anyone name the countries in the Middle East that have democratically elected officials?

Israel, and possibly the Palestinan Authority.  Iraq, sort of, but that government has yet to fully stand on its own legs, so the authenticity of those elections is still in the future.

quote:

Can anyone name the countries of the Middle East that are run by those that believe in a fanatical ideology?

Iran definitely.  Sudan.  Some might say Saudi Arabia, but I'm not sure the royal family qualifies as "fanatical".  Arguably Israel, although their psychology is more defensive/paranoid than fanatical in my view (they certainly have a political bias towards maintaining a Jewish electorate).

quote:

What type of military and economic power do these countries have?

Iran is a major oil exporter, and has a growing technological base, with the native intellectual resources to back it up.  Militarily, they are not a major force, but they can focus attention economically with their oil reserves.

quote:

Can anyone name the countries that wish the Jews removed from the Middle East or dead?

Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, with Jordan Libya, Lebanon, and Egypt not objecting to the idea.

quote:

Are the Israeli people being blamed more today than they were 30 years ago?

That's debateable.  Certainly they are getting a lot of negative press these days, but the Palestinian apologists weren't exactly kind to them 30 years ago either.  Are they blamed for a lot, and for more than they deserve?  Yes.  Moreso than 30 years ago?  that's a toss up.

quote:

Are there any other countries meddling in the Middle East, besides the United States?

Russia most definitely.  Iran's nuclear programs are based on Russian technology.

quote:

If so, how are they meddling?

See above.

quote:

Now the last one, how strongly do you believe in democracy and that everyone should live under that process to establish a government?
I would not live under a king or a dictator or a military strongman.  However, other nations may find such forms of government acceptable to them, and that choice should not be tampered with.



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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:18:28 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Sure we can. There is no universal rule book on what is just and fair. That is a false ideal. The problems were going on long before infidels were in their country though. The elected Iraqi government has not said for us to get out. The invasion is over and a dead issue. The newly elected government of Iraq wants us there for the time being.



When I heard the last talk about withdrawing US soldiers from, Iraq..I hear an US genral talk, not the president of Iraq.

--Sure we can. There is no universal rule book on what is just and fair.--
I can't say "you"..but you use "we" . Anyway..that attitude is why a big part hates the USA.
If you act like that..you have to accept all the costs. Financial troubles..soldiers killed..
Harvest what you seed.

Yes they had problems....but why would you invade for that? And what did it bring you?
The reason was for their weapons of mass distruction..and that was a lie. So what was the reason if the reason was not a reason?

The invasion is not over..because it was never finished. It didn't succeed. The Allies forces..just landed ....but didn't solve the problem.
(which problem actually?)

quote:

  



Can anyone name the countries of the Middle East that are run by those that believe in a fanatical ideology?


Iran definitely.  Sudan.


Sudan is africa I think

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/10/2008 10:25:09 AM >


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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:30:31 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html


Ii found this while readin a little on the subject we discuss.
Not sure how "real"the writer is. But anyway..interesting view.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:39:27 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Now the last one, how strongly do you believe in democracy and that everyone should live under that process to establish a government?


Democracy only works when it does; I don't have that much faith in it, because I don't have that much faith in much of the human race.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:46:28 AM   
Raechard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Uh, that is not an ideology, it is a single belief.

King David Hotel bombing
Deir Yassin massacre

These were the actions of fanatics no?
quote:


Many countries were formed by what some would call terrorism. So I take it you feel that Israel is to blame? Good illustration of what I have been reading so far.

I just reiterate the point that it is hard to see them as totally innocent when they have caused a great deal of resentment by their actions in the past through similar atrocities, what are we arguing about here the difference between planting a bomb or acting as one?

I’m under no illusion that the British government has done even more questionable and horrific things in the recent past but who is trying the paint a different image of that other than the British? We all see things from a point of view convenient to ourselves and our goals in life.
quote:


There has actually been progress in the last 30 years, the civil rights movement in the US is still going on. It is difficult to sympathize when there are suicide bombings occuring.

Unless you find their cause just as I mentioned above. Depends on the targets and how much I’m aligned with the cause.
quote:


Could you narrow that down a little more? or do you not see anyone else but the Western countries meddling in other countries affairs. remember now, the Mid East is the region and there are many seperate nations there.

We've all had a hand in it, thus it's a messy history with a lot of blood and blame to share around. We may as well stop trying to do this blame game or we will forever be at this starting point.

When I say we I mean humanity not just the west.


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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:49:03 AM   
Termyn8or


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Jumpthrough, sorry.

Democracy was despised by the Founding Fathers, they did their damndest to form a republic.

And precursors to war are always the same, create an emeny.

T

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 10:50:26 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Rather than go that direction, I thought a discussion about democracy in the middle east may be more relevant.



Let's not forget that democracy is no more than an idea; it may have its merits, but it's not without its pitfalls. In the event the Middle Eastern nations do not embrace democracy, it doesn't render them less or more vested in war and fanaticism than any other part of the world. We had a brief exchange a while ago, Orion, regarding society's values and beliefs and the view that sometimes these beliefs are a touch hard to shake off and think it through as an individual - seeing is believing - perhaps the bias weighted against the Islamic part of the world is not a fair reflection and is driven by vested interests who constantly regurgitate the same, old, tired propaganda from every orifice imaginable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Can anyone name the countries in the Middle East that have democratically elected officials?

Can anyone name the countries of the Middle East that are run by those that believe in a fanatical ideology?

What type of military and economic power do these countries have?

Can anyone name the countries that wish the Jews removed from the Middle East or dead?

Are the Israeli people being blamed more today than they were 30 years ago?



It's emotive stuff and heavily weighted.

a) Democracy does not prevent fanaticism, power grabbing and killing people.

b) Nations such as Pakistan and Afghanistan adopt a more fundamental line; whether or not this equates to fanaticism is open to debate. I've had the benefit of spending time with Jordanians, Palestinians, Moroccans, Egyptians, Libyans, UAE nationals and a few more; from what I've seen with my own eyes, I would say your average Arab is actually quite placid and hospitable, and the average Arab is far more concerned about fundamentalism than you or I, because in the event it spreads they are the ones who will have to live under restrictive conditions. The poorer nations tend to breed extreme ideas; these ideas need widespread sub-standard education in order to breed (for example, the Afghans, Saudis and Pakistanis).

c) You link "fanatical ideology" to the question of Israel: why? Surely the struggle for self-determination and independence is far more appropriate here than ideology or Islam. In the event a group of people set up shop in your country, what will you do? Will your actions be driven by Christianity? The Israelis are entitled to self-determination, too, but this in no way detracts from the aforementioned Palestinian situation

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Now the last one, how strongly do you believe in democracy and that everyone should live under that process to establish a government?



I'm a fan. Democracy is, however, a cog in the evolution of ideas; it will be superceded at some point in the near future. The important point is that people have to find their own way - experience is the best teacher.

P.S. Research, whether or not undertaken around primary or secondary sources, remains open to bias.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 11:11:27 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Thanks. I had read one similar, but not this exact one.

So if you were in charge, what would you do to guarantee American prosperity? To prevent American poverty skyrocketing?

Also, economics is the greatest weapon that nations can throw at each other, so how do you see the Iranian idea of hitting the US with a huge economic nuke?

So what do you think the Iranian idea is in control of that region?

The US pretty much established dominance for a while because they had nukes, and only one other did, and they were an economic powerhouse. Give Iran nukes and what the hell does anyone really do then? If Iran were not a theocracy, I would not worry as much, about as much as I worry that North Korea has them. North Korea will not benefit and go to heaven, if the apocolypse occurs, but Muslims and Christians do.

Some say the mistake of WW2 was trying to take over the world, and then gain nuclear weapons. Reverse that mistake and is it similar to what Iran is doing? I think it is.

Is there any arrangements between Iran and North Korea? Iran and China? Iran and Russia? Iran and many of the Arab/Middle Eastern countries? I believe there are significant ones ranging from outright sale of the technology they need, black marketing it through third parties, to training personal and such. America did the same to establish and maintain it's super power, why shouldn't Iran?

Is Iran a threat in any shape or form, to the US or global community? If they have nukes will they be? Many believe yes and I am starting to believe that way, just looking at all this if it were a board game, and I played Iran, then much of what they are doing, I would do as well, if I wanted to be a super power, the top power, or just in charge of everything. If I control the oil (which all countries currently need), and I control nuclear weapons, then I will eventually win. Kind of like owning Park Place and Board Walk with a small amount of a couple of others, and then you get all the yellow and green. mmmmmmmm.

Not so much paranoid about it, concerned would be a better description.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html


Ii found this while readin a little on the subject we discuss.
Not sure how "real"the writer is. But anyway..interesting view.


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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 11:45:28 AM   
Owner59


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"I watched a segment of Glenn Beck last night"

There`s your problem,right there.

And who was the opening minded,un-biased guest that Beck had on,making up stories about Iran and trying to sell/trick us into invading them?Funny, how you left that out.


Will the noe-cons ever be happy, without war mongering?

The neo-cons just got us into one needless disaster in Iraq,now they want another one.

You guys must have orgasmed when Newty Gingrich and the other ditto-heads used the term "WW III" over and over and over again,during Israel`s last devastating bombing of Lebanon.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To Orion and the ironically named Sanity,it`s not "that serious discussion on these boards is dead".

It`s more like folks aren`t going to let you get away with scare tactics and lying us into yet another war.

You know that saying,"fool me once,shame on you.Fool me twice,shame on me"

We`re going to keep it at "shame on you", for now.

It`s up to you to convince us that you`re not bullshitting us,like before with Iraq.

It`s up to you to show the burden of proof and not rely on subterfuge and misrepresentations,when it comes to committing our men to fight.

The discussion is there,it`s just not going to be a "slam dunk" or "cake walk",for ya.

You`re gonna have to actually make an intelligent,reasonable,cogent argument,before committing us to WW III. Sorry `bout that.

OrionTheWolf:

"Rather than go that direction, I thought a discussion about democracy in the middle east may be more relevant."

It`s democracy through a gun barrel that`s the bad idea.Imposing ourselves,our ideas and values by force,torture and coup d`etet ,isn`t going to work as a foreign policy.

Iraq and Iraq ,are good examples of that.

It used to be that only countries like China and the Soviets would use force to impose their will, invading nations  and "helping" them, by impossing their values and beliefs on them.

WW III,no thanks.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/10/2008 12:33:10 PM >

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 12:36:53 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Is Iran a threat in any shape or form, to the US or global community? If they have nukes will they be? Many believe yes and I am starting to believe that way, just looking at all this if it were a board game, and I played Iran, then much of what they are doing, I would do as well, if I wanted to be a super power, the top power, or just in charge of everything. If I control the oil (which all countries currently need), and I control nuclear weapons, then I will eventually win. Kind of like owning Park Place and Board Walk with a small amount of a couple of others, and then you get all the yellow and green. mmmmmmmm.


Iran is a limited threat.  The only country in the Middle East that has nuclear weapons is Israel.  Iran knows they have them, and so does every Arab country.  Iran may manage to build a small nuclear weapon in the next 10-20 years.  We monitor their activity constantly now, and it's not difficult to detect nuclear weapons testing which they would have to do.  So when they do get it, everyone will know about it.  Considering what the Israelis did to Saddam's nuclear reactor, what do you think they will do?

For the sake of argument, lets say they are crazy enough to want to use one.  They have no significant air force or rocketry, so how will they deliver it?  Well, they'd have to deliver it clandestinely.  So that would mean doing it by boat, automobile, or by a person.  Since the entire world knows they have it, that's going to be a tad difficult.  Delivering a nuclear weapon this way is dangerous for the delivery person.  I don't imagine a bomb from Iran would be high tech, so chances are the delivery person would kill himself with radiation before he ever made it to the target.  But again for the sake of argument, Iran overcomes these difficulties and manages to detonate a nuke somewhere.  What happens next?  Well, Iran would be finished.  Like I said, the Israelis have nukes already.  They also have the delivery capabilities. 

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 12:38:23 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Greetings NG,

You should already know my personal opinion on how I would handle things, but me being in charge is unrealistic. So I am left with trying to see how the powers that be would do it, and then ask my fellow man what he thinks.

I personally think further military action on our part, if it involved ground troops, would destroy us. This said I do not believe we can sustain our presense in the Middle, but should we? I am all for letting people and countries figure things out for themselves but I also must weigh what the consequences would be for my nation.

This is why I have been trying to research and ask other people what they thought. I have already been given some good things to think about further, and nothing has to be decided today ;).

Live well,
Orion

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 12:52:50 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Is Iran a threat in any shape or form, to the US or global community? If they have nukes will they be? Many believe yes and I am starting to believe that way, just looking at all this if it were a board game, and I played Iran, then much of what they are doing, I would do as well, if I wanted to be a super power, the top power, or just in charge of everything. If I control the oil (which all countries currently need), and I control nuclear weapons, then I will eventually win. Kind of like owning Park Place and Board Walk with a small amount of a couple of others, and then you get all the yellow and green. mmmmmmmm.


Iran is a limited threat.  The only country in the Middle East that has nuclear weapons is Israel.  Iran knows they have them, and so does every Arab country.  Iran may manage to build a small nuclear weapon in the next 10-20 years.  We monitor their activity constantly now, and it's not difficult to detect nuclear weapons testing which they would have to do.  So when they do get it, everyone will know about it.  Considering what the Israelis did to Saddam's nuclear reactor, what do you think they will do?

For the sake of argument, lets say they are crazy enough to want to use one.  They have no significant air force or rocketry, so how will they deliver it?  Well, they'd have to deliver it clandestinely.  So that would mean doing it by boat, automobile, or by a person.  Since the entire world knows they have it, that's going to be a tad difficult.  Delivering a nuclear weapon this way is dangerous for the delivery person.  I don't imagine a bomb from Iran would be high tech, so chances are the delivery person would kill himself with radiation before he ever made it to the target.  But again for the sake of argument, Iran overcomes these difficulties and manages to detonate a nuke somewhere.  What happens next?  Well, Iran would be finished.  Like I said, the Israelis have nukes already.  They also have the delivery capabilities. 



In 1998 there was a report that said Iran could have a two stage ICBM similar to North Korea's in 5 years of a decision by that government to go ahead.

In 2005 there was a major shift in the Iranian Government to a more radical faction taking control.

The only time that the radical factions have been detered from whatever they were doing at the time, was due to huge international pressure, which occured in 1996 and 2002. Which means they only respect a form of force to deter them.

Hopefully there may be a different Leader in Iran after the 2009 elections.

The radical factions being in control of even a medium range nuclear weapon is kind of scary. In the interview I watched, think of David Koresh from the Waco incident and give hima nuclear weapon. Both have followers and both base their decisions upon radical ideology, in this case theology that states they will be rewarded after death.

The Iraq thing is detracting from this in my opinion, and the United States has very little influence in the global areas they need it, and who would believe it if the US really did have proof anyway?

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 1:01:38 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

The Iraq thing is detracting from this in my opinion, and the United States has very little influence in the global areas they need it, and who would believe it if the US really did have proof anyway?


Like I said, Iran would have to test it.  We are not the only country with seismic and radiation detection.  Everyone would know about it.  The nuke that North Korea tested was smaller than a kiloton, and everyone knew about it.  Israel has some of the best intelligence in the world.  They are not going to just sit around on their duffs if Iran manages to get one.  I'm not worried about it.  I find other problems in the world to more alarming. 

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 1:05:25 PM   
NorthernGent


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Hello Orion,

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I personally think further military action on our part, if it involved ground troops, would destroy us. This said I do not believe we can sustain our presense in the Middle, but should we? I am all for letting people and countries figure things out for themselves but I also must weigh what the consequences would be for my nation.



Whether or not Iran is any sort of threat to the United States, could never be proven, nor could you provide for reasonable assurance; it follows thus, once you justify military action on the grounds of preventing "consequences to my nation", when the burden of proof has not been satisfied, you've crossed a line. You've become the judge and jury on whom needs putting in their place without provision for any reasonable assurance or agreement from an international body, i.e. it's tyrannical. You can bet your life that every despot from here to Outer Mongolia argued, "I'm doing it for the nation" - think Pol Pot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

nothing has to be decided today ;).



You're absolutely right; there's always tomorrow.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 1:05:57 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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This is one of the things that concerns me as well. At some point Israel is going to have to be pre-emptive. Some of the other governments that are not radical, are afraid of Iran getting a nuke as well.  If Israel attacks Iran, how do you think that will effect the region?


quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

The Iraq thing is detracting from this in my opinion, and the United States has very little influence in the global areas they need it, and who would believe it if the US really did have proof anyway?


Like I said, Iran would have to test it.  We are not the only country with seismic and radiation detection.  Everyone would know about it.  The nuke that North Korea tested was smaller than a kiloton, and everyone knew about it.  Israel has some of the best intelligence in the world.  They are not going to just sit around on their duffs if Iran manages to get one.  I'm not worried about it.  I find other problems in the world to more alarming. 


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