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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 1:07:32 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		<chuckles> Oh I see the slippery slope, but I am seeing it on both sides. Do nothing and let Israel nuke em?


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Hello Orion,

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I personally think further military action on our part, if it involved ground troops, would destroy us. This said I do not believe we can sustain our presense in the Middle, but should we? I am all for letting people and countries figure things out for themselves but I also must weigh what the consequences would be for my nation.



Whether or not Iran is any sort of threat to the United States, could never be proven, nor could you provide for reasonable assurance; it follows thus, once you justify military action on the grounds of preventing "consequences to my nation", when the burden of proof has not been satisfied, you've crossed a line. You've become the judge and jury on whom needs putting in their place without provision for any reasonable assurance or agreement from an international body, i.e. it's tyrannical. You can bet your life that every despot from here to Outer Mongolia argued, "I'm doing it for the nation" - think Pol Pot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

nothing has to be decided today ;).



You're absolutely right; there's always tomorrow.


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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 1:24:52 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

<chuckles> Oh I see the slippery slope, but I am seeing it on both sides.



You'll need to shed a bit more light on this one, Orion, because the above is lost on me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Do nothing and let Israel nuke em?



Orion, it's not your place to intervene with military action. Nobody has elected the United States to be the world's enforcer.

If you're intent on doing something, then the wise move is to come up with a means of getting them 'round the table and into a mindset of compromise. I would add, however, that I don't see why they'd listen to you, I or the next man; in fact, your involvement in the region is escalating the problem, because you're considered to be Israel's enforcer. A good argument could be put together to suggest that the peace process will stand a far better chance without the United States, fully equipped with suspect motives, sticking its unwanted beak into affairs.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 1:32:32 PM   
BrigandDoom


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From: Nottingham
Status: offline 		It's been a very interesting thread so far, but I think the oil issue has been passed over. If the US was truly interested in ensuring democracy for all as Geedubya and Tony Blair whilst he our Prime Minster kept banging on about then they'sd of invaded Zimbabwe! Mugabe has decimated the bread basket of Africa with his corupt policies but where are the valiant knights in shining armour to liberate the national now Maguabe is trying to rig the election he lost? Nowhere to be seen, strange that, but I'd bet a $1 million that they'd be in there like a shot if black gold erupted out of the terra firma.
Had George Bush senior instructed the troops to carry on after the Iraqi's were pushed out of Kuwait no-one would've objected, it a pity that sonny jim decided to correct his fathers mistake and whether I'm being cynical or not, there's all that lovely black stuff under the sand.
 

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 1:34:46 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Should these posters be flattered or offended  ?


Errr... If I'm totally honest, they should be neither.  It was just a description of what I saw and actually not aimed at invoking any emotional response at all. 

I'm possibly less inclined to deconstruct today's right-wing eschatology than I'd thought.


Maybe youre just starting to like Boris 

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 1:41:50 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

This is one of the things that concerns me as well. At some point Israel is going to have to be pre-emptive. Some of the other governments that are not radical, are afraid of Iran getting a nuke as well.  If Israel attacks Iran, how do you think that will effect the region?


Israel has attacked a lot of countries in that region.  They destroyed Saddam's nuclear reactor in the 80's.  The Arabs and the Iranians were not happy about it, but there isn't much they can do.  They have tried attacking Israel before, and they got their asses handed to them.  Israel can take care of itself. 

One of the reasons that Iran has failed to liberalize in the last 20 years is our meddling.  The Iranian mullahs use us as propaganda to scare their people into voting for the most hardline conservatives in the country.  I think most of the people in Iran want social reform.  But they put that on the back burner when they think their under threat from foreigners.  We only add fuel to the fire with our meddling.  They have a long memory, and they remember us staging a coup to oust their first democratically elected leader just so we could gain control over the oil there.  You can't blame the people there for being suspicious of our intentions.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 1:56:27 PM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Thanks. I had read one similar, but not this exact one.

So if you were in charge, what would you do to guarantee American prosperity? To prevent American poverty skyrocketing?
Mm I am not American so it is a bit hard. I think America should act a little more passive in certain cases. That would have solved the problems.
On the other side..I find Europe to passive. There must be a "middle"way. But we can't invade countries...because they are different...or try to get as powerfull as we are.

Also, economics is the greatest weapon that nations can throw at each other, so how do you see the Iranian idea of hitting the US with a huge economic nuke?
Iran treated Europe to stop oil delivery...that worked. Peopel worry more about that then the nukes. I guess that is proof of the double agenda's.

So what do you think the Iranian idea is in control of that region?
I think the president of Iran is causing tention because of his random remarks. They don't seem to be a real strategy. Just remarks he makes during visits to universities and soldiers..to look cool and strong. But it has a great effect. It is a real nut case. I read he was first one of the "" soft core"politicians untill he noticed that beeing harsh made people cheer harder.

The US pretty much established dominance for a while because they had nukes, and only one other did, and they were an economic powerhouse. Give Iran nukes and what the hell does anyone really do then? If Iran were not a theocracy, I would not worry as much, about as much as I worry that North Korea has them. North Korea will not benefit and go to heaven, if the apocolypse occurs, but Muslims and Christians do.


Is there any arrangements between Iran and North Korea? Iran and China? Iran and Russia? Iran and many of the Arab/Middle Eastern countries? I believe there are significant ones ranging from outright sale of the technology they need, black marketing it through third parties, to training personal and such. America did the same to establish and maintain it's super power, why shouldn't Iran?
Yes they sure have arrangements. Iran got nuclear info from North Korea. Rockets are developt together...etc...etc.


Not so much paranoid about it, concerned would be a better description.
Concerned, I am too



< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/10/2008 2:07:23 PM >

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 2:00:39 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Thanks. I had read one similar, but not this exact one.

So if you were in charge, what would you do to guarantee American prosperity? To prevent American poverty skyrocketing?



Why would the power junkies in charge want to do that? An impoverished citizenry is more easily led.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 2:00:42 PM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Israel can take care of itself. 


Israel is not capable of defending itself to multiple attacks at the same time. Not alone. They can do long range air attacks. But they have also problems with hesbollah en the palestines. In Libanon they proved they have problems.
And the citizins of Israel are getting tired of war.
Situation has changed a little since the 60's

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/10/2008 2:02:54 PM >

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 2:04:02 PM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Why would the power junkies in charge want to do that? An impoverished citizenry is more easily led.


Good point. Bad economical situation gave Hitler his power.
But in time you have to give your followers something. Else they rebel.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 2:28:34 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

But in time you have to give your followers something. Else they rebel.



Feed them enough junk food and give them enough televised sports, arm them so they believe they are 'in charge of their own destinies', and they're likely to remain ensconced in their couches and let the revolution not be televised.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 2:29:46 PM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

But in time you have to give your followers something. Else they rebel.



Feed them enough junk food and give them enough televised sports, arm them so they believe they are 'in charge of their own destinies', and they're likely to remain ensconced in their couches and let the revolution not be televised.


mmm  perhaps that is true.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 2:33:36 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

But in time you have to give your followers something. Else they rebel.



Feed them enough junk food and give them enough televised sports, arm them so they believe they are 'in charge of their own destinies', and they're likely to remain ensconced in their couches and let the revolution not be televised.


And raise prices to where they start missing their former standard of living, and see how quickly they can be whipped into an 'anti-them' frenzy, accompanied by a 'won't somebody do something' carte blanche for totalitarianism.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 2:41:10 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Et la boucle est bouclée.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 2:44:59 PM   
Raechard


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From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
And raise prices to where they start missing their former standard of living, and see how quickly they can be whipped into an 'anti-them' frenzy, accompanied by a 'won't somebody do something' carte blanche for totalitarianism.


People will sometimes be amazed by what other humans grow to tolerate. I often hear people on the train comment oh I couldn't do this journey to work standing everyday. It didn't really ever occur to me that I had got used to standing up rather than getting a seat. I pay the same as a person with a seat but I don't get one and yet I don't see this as a big injustice because it has always been like that and I have always stood up for 40 minutes on the way to work.

Yet there are people that had to ride the roof of the train in some parts of the world, yes always have and no one there seems to question the injustice of that either. I suppose it goes back to that 'there is always someone worse off than you' belief.

(Edit: their = there)

< Message edited by Raechard -- 5/10/2008 2:51:55 PM >

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 3:48:10 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		You said random remarks made by the President of Iran, but in fact he has said it numerous times, and the faction he is a part of has also said it. Why do you dismiss his remarks so easily?

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 3:49:10 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		It is also more unstable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Thanks. I had read one similar, but not this exact one.

So if you were in charge, what would you do to guarantee American prosperity? To prevent American poverty skyrocketing?



Why would the power junkies in charge want to do that? An impoverished citizenry is more easily led.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 3:58:16 PM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You said random remarks made by the President of Iran, but in fact he has said it numerous times, and the faction he is a part of has also said it. Why do you dismiss his remarks so easily?


the amount of stupid remarks are plenty. But as I said...they seem more propaganda...food for hungry people....then a strategy for the whole country.
They know also they need the world...to buy oil from them.

Why I dismiss his remarks? BEcause he hardly did anything yet, but scream.  O.K. he has his nuclear stuff, but so do other countries.
There are more dangerous situations in the world. But it seems the east is our main focus......for some reason.

I myself have a hard time believing anything about the middle east since they admitted they lied about Iraq. Lies can change the whole world.
America was the guard of our planet. Now they are seen so differently. It had great impact. And stupid Europe..couldn't think..but just followed..instead of talking.
Guess every one is to blame. The question  is how to stop a ragin bull




< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/10/2008 4:08:01 PM >

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 5:03:10 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

This is one of the things that concerns me as well. At some point Israel is going to have to be pre-emptive. Some of the other governments that are not radical, are afraid of Iran getting a nuke as well.  If Israel attacks Iran, how do you think that will effect the region?


Israel has attacked a lot of countries in that region.  They destroyed Saddam's nuclear reactor in the 80's.  The Arabs and the Iranians were not happy about it, but there isn't much they can do.  They have tried attacking Israel before, and they got their asses handed to them.  Israel can take care of itself. 


The US takes care of Israel. Without American money Israel couldn't expand and wage war the way it does and it would have to come to terms with living with its neighbours and consider a peaceful solution rather than its historic aggressive one that doesn't work. All the US backed Israeli tactics have done, is create ever more and ever more determined opposition groups. Whether people care to call them terrorists of freedom fighters is a mute point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
One of the reasons that Iran has failed to liberalize in the last 20 years is our meddling.  The Iranian mullahs use us as propaganda to scare their people into voting for the most hardline conservatives in the country.  I think most of the people in Iran want social reform.  But they put that on the back burner when they think their under threat from foreigners.  We only add fuel to the fire with our meddling.  They have a long memory, and they remember us staging a coup to oust their first democratically elected leader just so we could gain control over the oil there.  You can't blame the people there for being suspicious of our intentions.


So true. Iran wouldn't have needed to liberalize if the west didn't interfer in the first place. The reason Iran is full of religious fanatics is because the US backed Shah culled all opposition so people sort opposition through religion. All the US policy in the region does is make everyone more extreme and bloody minded.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 5:09:37 PM   
stella41b


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From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You said random remarks made by the President of Iran, but in fact he has said it numerous times, and the faction he is a part of has also said it. Why do you dismiss his remarks so easily?


I'll come in here if I may. I fail to see how Iran in any way is a threat to the US or anyone else. The Iranian President is a despot, a nutcase, as are those in power, but let us not forget there is very strong opposition within Iran, an underground activist movement working against the Iranian government. Iran is the only official Shiite Muslim state in the world. Common sense suggests not perceiving Iran as any sort of threat and hoping that this current regime can be overthrown by the Iranians themselves.

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RE: Pre-World War 3 - 5/10/2008 5:15:36 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		The history of Iran after the Shah, proves otherwise. This despot as you call him, was voted in and the current radical faction has a pretty firm control on things. Next elections are 2009, and hopefully moderates will prove to be the victor, but we will see.

Let us not forget there has been an underground movement against the Cubans, Chinese, North Koreans and others, but they have not been very successful.

Have you even read anything about the radical group that is currently in power? Have you seen the control Iran has over other radical organizations, such as Hezbelouh?



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