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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/15/2008 6:44:05 PM   
cloudboy


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No, I unequivocally oppose a 55 mph speed limit. Its a too slow speed for a car on the HWY. My 125 motor scooter goes 60 mph.

My unresearched opinion is also that a lower speed limit would lead to more congested HWY driving which might undermine any gasoline savings.

In my fantasy world, the US would have a well networked system of high speed trains connecting all heavily populated areas --- and all major cities would have some kind of advanced subway system --- obviating the need for automobile commuting altogether.


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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/15/2008 6:57:45 PM   
cantilena


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I own a sports car and hate polar bears.

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/15/2008 7:06:20 PM   
kyraofMists


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These days it is very rare for me to get above 40 MPH, so not much of a hardship for me.  I drive about 2.5 miles to work through mostly residential area.  However, I no longer live in the US.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/15/2008 7:11:58 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: snappykappy

isnt that a song cant drive 55



Oh yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko5woHdtS-o

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/15/2008 7:23:36 PM   
Bethnai


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Shoot, I would drive 55 if I actually got to see it. As it stands now, I have a road that goes up to 65 and its rural.  I'm thinking......I live in Bumfuck, Egypt now. THAT road is obviously going to take me further into Bumfuck, Egypt. Further into that territory is a hard limit.  Although, to each their own.
I could drive 55 into Chicago, but depending on the time of day what that really means is 55 minutes of gridlock. So, if I boil it all down what it means is that I can't drive 55, even though I want to.

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/15/2008 7:46:22 PM   
Termyn8or


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I don't like to do jumpthroughs, but cloud has a very valid point.

Math proves un---anythingably that if each car goes down the road at a slower speed, they will be on the road for a longer time. There is no refuting that.

When highways are designed, the scientific model that pervades that skill is that of fluid dynamics. An elbow in plumbing is pretty much a hairpin turn. Look at the design of the onramps and offramps. It is easy to see.

Now if we could all move along at the same speed, say 90MPH, problems would be few. That is if we agree to be good little molecules in the "stream" But the problem is we got idiots that need to get ahead of you no matter what, wait until the last minute to get into the lane they need to be in, and I don't want to even start about the ditzy bitches on the phone.

My Grampa told me "On the highway, try to maintain a constant speed". Here's one about that. They had a station wagon with a really tall rear end, like a 2.21 or something like that. But being my family they put a torquey engine in it and drove it. And of course there was a tach on the steering column. Well a couple of the brothers and dad were driving out west and it was Grampa's turn to drive. Oh and drive he did. Too bad he didn't know it.

He wasn't really familiar with this car, and the dash lights were out, but the light for the tach worked fine. It was dark. They had told him "Pa just keep it at sixty". He did. Unable to see the spedometer and looking at the tach, he did what he was told. It wasn't his car after all, so he kept it at SIX THOUSAND RPM !

Remember I said this thing had a really tall rearend in it. Now we are a family who knows math, and knowing what the tach said at like sixty miles an hour, well, we have never figured out exactly how fast he was going, because we just don't want to know how close death was.

When the brother woke up Grampa was bitching, I mean "What is it with all these slowpoke.........." and somebody had to tell him. I mean they had slept across two state lines !

Now understand this, we do not even want to know the actual speed, but it is surely in excess of 100 MPH. Of that there is no doubt. Just for the hell of it I will press the olman for those details. I don't want to know what the car's RPMs were at 60 MPH, none of that shit. I want to know where they went and how long it took.

When you got a car geared like that it is possible that there is some slippage in the clutch. But then he might not have been in the last gear, I do not know. In fact it may have been an automatic, which would explain alot.

The fact still remains that the engine did six thousand RPM for quite a few hours. If the fuzzy calc in my mind works, in a lossless drive train the speed would be to high for the chassis to maintain. From the figures I heard, it would be in excess of 200 MPH, and there is no way that car could handle going that fast. It was either an automatic or the wind load made the clutch slip.One or the other.

But six thousand RPM in a V8 for hours and hours ? Yep they knew how to build an engine.

Trying to meander back to the point of the thread, I wonder what the gasoline consumption was. I know it was cheap, but how many gallons ?

Wait though, it might not apply today. They could get a big engine, and knew how to optimize it for low end torque. But six grand is not low end torque.

So there are, as usual more questions than answers. I'll find out.

T

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/16/2008 2:29:44 PM   
proudsub


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We did it in the late 70's and would do it again if it wouldn't piss off everyone behind us.  I would be happy to see it madated.  What i don't want to see is a repeat of the gas lines that we had back then, that really sucked.

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/17/2008 12:55:49 AM   
shallowdeep


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Interesting topic, but discussing the supposed benefits without critically examining the assumptions makes little sense. My take:

1. Fuel savings
Aerodynamic drag does begin to reduce fuel economy beyond around 55-60 mph, and the reduction can be around 20% for an increase from 55 mph to 70 mph (see Oak Ridge National Laboratories Transportation Energy Data Book, p. 4-26 - or here for a non-technical graph and explanation). If all driving occurred at steady highway speeds, 20% savings might be possible, but that's not the case. The International Energy Agency's 2005 report Saving Oil in a Hurry examined the potential savings of a 55 MPH speed limit, among many other ideas, and concluded the United States and Canada together would save 363,000 barrels of fuel per day, equivalent to 3.2% of the transport fuel they consume, or 2.4% of all oil fuels consumed by them (see pp. 96-106). A separate 1996 German government study cited in the report estimated a 100 km/h speed limit could reduce Germany's consumption by 4.8%.

I ran my own sanity check on the numbers by looking at the drag forces. I used Wikipedia's claim for an average full-size car's drag area to calculate the difference in drag force between 50 and 70 mph. I then multiplied that by the vehicle miles traveled on interstates in 2006, adjusting for 31.6% congestion, to estimate the decreased energy requirements of reduced speed. Assuming a 20% engine efficiency, I calculated daily savings of 385 thousand barrels of gasoline, which matches reasonably well.

Assessments of the effect of the National Maximum Speed Limit indicate savings were around 1-2% of oil consumption, but that was limited by poor compliance and was higher initially when compliance was greater. Still, even with perfect enforcement, the savings are likely to be less than 5%.

2. National security issues
Using recent refinery figures, a 42 gallon barrel of crude results in around 26.8 gallons of gasoline and diesel. So the reduction in imported crude oil might be greater than the transport fuel savings alone imply. 363,000 barrels of vehicle fuel translates into 569,000 barrels of crude. While quite a bit of fuel, it only amounts to 4.25% of the 13.4 million barrels of daily US imports, so the country would still be heavily dependent on foreign supplies. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of others eager to buy what we don't, so a relatively small cutback in demand isn't going to keep exporting nations from selling their oil, although there might be a modest reduction in price.

3. Reduced fuel prices
Pretty much like the above. There might be a modest slowing in price increases.

4. Safety
There probably is some effect, but it's difficult to quantify - it's not the sort of thing for which you can ethically set up a controlled experiment.

The Transportation Research Board's Managing Speed report examines the issue in some depth in Section 2, Effects of Speed.
quote:

Although the evidence is not conclusive, speed appears to contribute to crash occurrence. Theory, empirical data drawn from correlational studies, and causal analyses of crashes provide evidence that both speed and speed dispersion are associated with crash involvement.

Basically, there is evidence that faster speeds lead to more accidents, especially single vehicle ones, but there is considerable uncertainty about the exact effect. There is also evidence that speed dispersion, i.e. cars traveling significantly faster or slower than the flow of traffic, leads to accidents, so concerns about slowing down to 55 while others continue to go faster are justified.

While the relationship between speed and accident frequency isn't strongly established, the relationship between speed and accident severity is. From the same report:
quote:

Fitting curves to crash data ... the probability of a fatality is related to Delta-V to the fourth power.
...
In summary, all of the studies that have investigated the link between vehicle speed and injury severity have found a consistent relationship. As driving speed increases, so does the impact speed of a vehicle in a collision. Increased impact speed, in turn, results in a sharp increase in injury severity because of the power relationship between impact speed and the energy released in a crash.

So, hitting something solid at twice the speed increases the chances of dying roughly by a factor of 16.

With that said, the effect on safety from lower speed limits in practice is debatable. When the National Maximum Speed Limit was implemented in 1974 highway fatalities fell by 15%, but at least some of that was attributable to less driving and some, like the rather anti-Federal Cato Institute, argue that the decrease can be explained entirely by a combination of other factors and chance - see Speed Doesn't Kill: Repeal of the 55-MPH Speed Limit.

The Transportation Research Board's 1984 report, 55: A Decade of Experience, concluded otherwise.
quote:

The review concluded that the unprecedented decrease in highway fatalities, over 9000 lives, immediately following the enactment of the NMSL resulted from many factors including reduced exposure and reduced discretionary driving. However, taking into account other variables that may have contributed to the safety benefits, the report concluded that the NMSL continued to save lives. They estimated that, in the early years of the 55 mph NMSL the lower speeds saved about 3000 to 5000 lives annually.

Since the rollback of the national limit was gradual, especially when factoring in increasing noncompliance, studies on the effect of raising the limit are rather equivocal. Improvements in car safety, emergency response time, and medical care during the period in question also complicate time series analysis, as injuries and fatalities were decreasing independent of speed limits, as shown in Bureau of Transportation Statistics.

I tend to find the TRB's conclusion more persuasive than the Cato Institute's, but quantifying what the improvement to safety would be now is difficult, to say the least. The Institute of Transportation Engineers's Desktop Reference for Crash Reduction Factors indicates that if the mean speed of vehicles can be lowered, safety improves. However, they make a point of distinguishing between merely posting lower limit signs (something that has, ironically, empirically increased accident rates in certain situations) and actually getting cars to slow down.

I personally wouldn't mind lowered speed limits, but lowering speeds is not a panacea. Overstating the benefits doesn't benefit anyone. Another key point is that the merits of reduced limits could be substantially undermined by noncompliance. Considering the lack of adherence to existing limits, I'd be pretty happy if those were better observed.


The minutes / Some folks / Save through speed / They never even / Live to need / Burma Shave

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/17/2008 5:37:10 AM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If it meant we saved 20-30% in fuel costs?

If it meant not funding world-wide terrorism w/ our petro-dollars?

If it meant an almost total reduction/elimination of foreign oil imports?

If it meant we didn`t have to go to war for oil?

If it meant that the price would fall, due to lessened demand.

If it meant a reduction is the number deaths and/or the severity of crash injuries?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Would you sacrifice the few extra minutes of drive time ,if it meant that all or most of those items could be achieved?

Would you make simple sacrifices like this, for America`s benefit?


I would drive 55 mph if they could somehow figure out how to make the pavement move underneath me in the opposing direction at least 35 mph.

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/17/2008 7:24:32 AM   
corsetgirl


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As a subsitute teacher, I commute on the interstate highway to neighboring schools in the next county and I would drive 55 miles per hour by saving on gas and energy.  Unfortunately, my community is flooded with SUV's and pickup trucks with drivers who think they are competing on the NASCAR race in Daytona Beach and that is on speed limits posted at 75 miles per hour!!  I would suspect these people would just rebel against this reduction of the speed limit on the interstate highways. 

During Nixon's administration, this started out as a practical idea in not only conserving energy but also reducing the number of accidents on the highway; however, looking at today, this is a society of the "gotta go and get there fast" behavior.

Just my  opinion.


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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/17/2008 11:57:34 AM   
petdave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
In my fantasy world, the US would have a well networked system of high speed trains connecting all heavily populated areas --- and all major cities would have some kind of advanced subway system --- obviating the need for automobile commuting altogether.



Feh. In MY fantasy world people can teleport, so all driving is recreational

i'm just curious... people who would prefer a 55 MPH speed limit- have you ever driven across the Southwestern U.S.? Like, taken I-20/I-10 all the way from California to Mississippi, for example? I mean, westbound out of Deming, NM, i saw a sign saying "Speed patrolled by aircraft", and i just wondered WHY??? Flat, smooth pavement from horizon to horizon, visibility for miles, maybe a half-dozen vehicles in sight, nothing around aside from a set of railroad tracks and power lines running parallel to the Interstate... and they're gonna have three cops, a plane, and a radio car all working to keep somebody from covering a mile in 36 seconds instead of 42? What sense can that possibly make???

If you want to save fuel, pester automakers for better aerodynamics. Pester your local politicians to roll back all the safety regulations that have added 10-20% or more to the weight of the average automobile in the past 50 years. Just don't waste the time of other citizens who have places they want to be other than sitting in a car behind you.

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/17/2008 6:40:25 PM   
corsetgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: snappykappy

isnt that a song cant drive 55


Yes, that is a Sammy Hagar song BVH (Before Van Halen)!

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/17/2008 8:03:33 PM   
Wildfleurs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

 If it meant we saved 20-30% in fuel costs?

If it meant not funding world-wide terrorism w/ our petro-dollars?

If it meant an almost total reduction/elimination of foreign oil imports?

If it meant we didn`t have to go to war for oil?

If it meant that the price would fall, due to lessened demand.

If it meant a reduction is the number deaths and/or the severity of crash injuries?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Would you sacrifice the few extra minutes of drive time ,if it meant that all or most of those items could be achieved?

Would you make simple sacrifices like this, for America`s benefit?


No - because I'd rather increased investment in commuter options (trains, bus systems, etc) that create a different lifestyle among Americans of less dependency on cars to get around and more of a use of bicycles and public transportation systems. Driving slower doesn't change the overall lifestyle choices that have led us here where Americans seem to believe that we are entitled to several large gas guzzling cars and more and more stuff that just gets us further into debt.

C~

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/17/2008 10:04:14 PM   
subrob1967


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Not even a no, but a Hell No!

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RE: Would you drive 55 MPH if ? - 5/17/2008 10:19:10 PM   
Termyn8or


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Actually why was it 55 not 60 ? Anyone ever think of that ? A mile a minute.

Why ?

T

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