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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 5:53:21 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Perhaps hearing your parents do these things influenced your sexual development... I do not believe we are 'born kinky'.

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 6:01:27 AM   
hopelesslyInvo


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From: the future
Status: offline 		the only conclusion i can come to (and what i figure should be pretty obvious) is that no one is born gay anymore than they are born straight.  when i was born i didn't want to put my penis anywhere, i didn’t even know i had a penis or that not everyone did, and once i did figured that part out, for the longest time still the only place i wanted to put my dick was in my own pants and that’s where i wanted to leave it.  how the hell am i supposed to be born with a desire to put my dick in something i don’t even know exists?  it’s such horse shit.  being gay is a preference not a fucking condition, if it was maybe then you could diagnose it or it would be present before it’s had a chance to come to life, but you might as well be telling me my food is burnt before i pull it out of the fridge.

the concept of being born gay or anything else is just about as stupid as calling alcoholism a disease.  there's a reason puberty and life experiences affect the viewpoints we have of other people, other things, and certain activities with them, and it's because we were previously quite blissfully unaware of our sexual orientation due to fact our sexual orientation didn't fucking exist.  it doesn't matter if you were 17 before you started looking at one gender with different eyes, or if you started feeling a strange attraction to one gender at age 6, you weren’t born as homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual because we’re not born sexual.  i wasn’t born a rocker, an artist, a kind person, shy, argumentative, submissive, emotional, and definitely not born with a desire to hump anything or anyone.  are people born racist without confronting  other races or having the slightest understanding of discrimination?  yeah we’re all born a certain way, for me it was head first, what else is there to discuss?  as if the people that come out of the closet didn’t have to step in there in the first place...

if people are born with sexual orientations and desires, why then is sex with minors generally shall we say "heavily fucking frowned upon"?
if people are born good or bad why don't we slap on a pair of puffy sky blue or light pink cuffies on them before installing iron bars on their cribs?
if we're born with interests and preferences, why does it take so long for people to find what they want in life, and why does what we are interested in, and what we prefer, change so damn often?  why do so many people never figure out these things in life?

the concept that we are born gay was a foolish sentiment that originated from defending a characteristic of a person that never should have had to be defended in the first place; it was a dumb way of saying i can’t help what i’m attracted to, and i shouldn’t need to feel apologetic about it.  

saying “this is who, this is what i am, that i didn’t choose to be this way” is a lot different than alternatively saying “who i am today, and who i can or may be in the future, is completely limited to what i have always been since birth”.   

a different life, a different experience in what that life consists of will yield a different livelihood, every time, if you weren’t living the life you are now, you wouldn’t be you anymore.  to say i would be the same person that i am now if i was born 1000 years ago, or in someone else’s shoes is utter bullshit.  it’s not about denying who you are, it’s about not discrediting why you are who you are, respecting the importance of where you come from and what got you there.   
so much in life is a choice, but even the things we don’t decide or can’t control cannot be expected to have an answer before there is even anything to question.

we are born with a body, and a mind; we have potential, and we have possibilities.  every moment that our life continues our body and mind continues to develop, only as we develop do we ever mature, we cannot be until we become.  

saying we were born a certain way is spitting on the trials and tribulations of how we got where we are and what we ended up being.   

nothing, no items, no genes, no influences, no upbringing can change you into something you are not, but you can’t be anything until you’ve become defined.  

people are susceptible to conditioning, especially in youth when people are easily impressionable, but there are no absolutes in results.  

even if you didn’t have control over the choice, there are options and a checkmark is going to end up next to something, these can’t be checked at birth, and they can and often are changed throughout life, including sexual orientation and interests in activities.   even if a person ends up being something that they didn’t choose to be, people become these things.  

as far as being inherited is concerned, people can inherit carpenters hand from their carpenter father, but you don’t inherit their care for crafting, otherwise jr. would be a huge understatement.  it should be no wonder that so many people “take after” their parents because they’re around it, they’re aware of it; if you come from a family of musicians you’re going to either like it or hate it, and that’s a 50% chance of following some footsteps due to experience and influence not because of inheritance, and if they choose to not be a musician someone’s going to tell me they were born hating music?..  the reason people are likely to follow what they’re exposed to should seem clear, and the reason they are less likely to become other things is because there’s hell of a lower chance of becoming something that you’re completely unaware of or unfamiliar with.  people “get things from their parents” all the time, but aside from “their nose” i’m pretty sure our traits are because of an extremely significant experience with who we get them from, call me crazy if you want.  nobody wants to be a fireman till they see one, nobody wonders “what’s out there” until they get a grasp as to where they are, nobody including themseleves can say who they will want to have touching them until they want to be touched.  

seems pretty simple and obvious to me, but i’m used to people not agreeing.

< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 5/18/2008 6:17:10 AM >

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 6:09:33 AM   
Maya2001


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Status: offline 		I believe everyone has erotic fantasies  to some degree but some are just willing to act on them , while others don't due to societal conditioning saying that it is wrong to


< Message edited by Maya2001 -- 5/18/2008 6:10:59 AM >

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 6:18:14 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		I loved your post - spot on.

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 6:29:57 AM   
DominantJenny


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Status: offline 		Invo, there's one big problem with what you're saying...being "born with something" doesn't necessarily mean it's active from the moment of birth. For example, one could be born with a genetic heart condition that is not apparent until the heart reaches a certain level of development. In the same way, one could be born with a genetic sexual orientation that does not trigger until they reach puberty. Oh, an even better example! You are "born with", that is to say, you have a gene (or allelle or plurals of those or something...there's a lot we still don't know about precisely how all this works), to grow hair on your genitalia when you hit puberty. You WILL grow hair (unless you have some sort of rare genetic variation that alters this!) once you reach puberty; you have no control over that fact, but it is very much NOT apparent at birth.
From the moment I felt any sexual feelings at all, they were for both genders and they were sadistic. I tend to think this is a sign that they were somehow coded for in my base code. There was NO event, NO reason in my life; all the people around me were straight, I was never abused in any way, never exposed to violence as a sexual turn-on, etc., and the idea of these things was not introduced to me until long after I had these feelings totally unbidden.
I do think most everything is on a spectrum (just as people differ in how much pubic hair they end up with), and I think environment can influence where you ultimately fall on that spectrum, and I think that dominance and submission are temperament qualities which are more easily affected than sexual orientation and sadomasochism, which I think (from my experience and what I've learned from others) are more autonomic physical/biological qualities.
Unfortunately, I don't happen to be a scientist, or I'd be doing the research on this stuff. Eventually, we'll figure it out.

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 6:42:01 AM   
hopelesslyInvo


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From: the future
Status: offline 		being gay is a condition you call it, and people are born with a "genetic sexual orientation"?

...

orientations, preferences, attractions... these aren't conditions, and there's a huge difference between being dormant, inactive, or unapparent and simply not existing at the time, if they ever will.

the mind doesn't develop the same way the body does, it doesn't follow a timeline of changes and correct follow-through, and orientation is of the mind, not the body.

the main problem with my argument is people don't like it.


< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 5/18/2008 6:50:35 AM >

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 7:25:03 AM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelesslyInvo

being gay is a condition you call it, and people are born with a "genetic sexual orientation"?

...

orientations, preferences, attractions... these aren't conditions, and there's a huge difference between being dormant, inactive, or unapparent and simply not existing at the time, if they ever will.

the mind doesn't develop the same way the body does, it doesn't follow a timeline of changes and correct follow-through, and orientation is of the mind, not the body.

the main problem with my argument is people don't like it.



I referred to a heart condition, not to being gay as a condition. Let's not throw up strawmen here. Hair growth is not a condition, and that's the example I concentrated on.

I said it's possible, and, from my experience and knowledge, probable, that orientation (bi/gay/straight and/or sado-masochistic) is coded for in one's genetics, the same way that we are all coded to grow pubic hair at puberty, although to varying degrees (and colors).
The brain does develop just like the body, and that influences the development of the mind; there are things one simply is not capable of understanding or even thinking about until the brain is developed enough. (I think the very last maturation of the brain, as they have it now, is sometime around age 18. But we're learning all the time and we know very little, actually, about the brain.)
The mind is not the same as the brain, but they are inextricably linked, so it's important to be aware of that.

YOU say orientation is of the mind, not the body. I disagree with that statement. I am physically (of the body) aroused by sadism, whether I want to be or not. I am physically (of the body) attracted to both men and women whether I want to be or not. Most people I have known have been the same. My spouse is straight. He is not attracted to men, whether he wants to be or not. He is a masochist, he is aroused by pain whether he wants to be or not, it's a baseline physical reaction. This doesn't mean that we aren't affected by our life experiences or that other factors can't create confusing situations (regardless of attraction, stimulation of one's genitals can arouse one in many cases, for example), but it does set a baseline from which we start.

My MIND tells me that just because I'm physically attracted to John Doe, John Doe is, in fact, an ass, and I shouldn't date him. So I date Joe Smith instead, who I am both physically attracted to and who my mind approves of. The point I'm making here is that it is never completely an either/or situation, and that just because I am attracted to men doesn't mean my mind isn't capable of saying I need more than a base physical attraction to mate with someone. That's the part where we are more than simple animals who are ruled by instinct.

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 7:31:30 AM   
metalmiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Born oriented towards particular intimate personal relationship dynamics yes.

Hereditary?  I wouldn't be surprised if there were some element involved, but I don't think it's anywhere simple as eye color.


i am in complete agreement here, perfectly worded & couldn't have said it better *smiles*


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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 7:41:59 AM   
Maya2001


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Status: offline 		I disagree with your post as well  there are a lot of genetic types of conditions that do not present themselves immediately at birth  for example cancer, diabetes and a host of others.

As far as male homosexuality  it was in 1993 that scientists have discovered that it occurs in  the  X chromosome identified by Xq28 , they have not yet identified the location for females that I am aware of    

In dogs   hip dysplasia ,   leg perthes disease, von willebrand disease  bloat, hypothyroidism   inheritant spookiness, certain forms of blindness  etc are known to be inherited genetic disorders  but do  not occur till after puberty other may not show symptoms till they are around 8 years old which is the reason some genetic conditions get passed down generation after generation, only recently breeders are using DNA testing as a means to prevent breeding dogs that may be carrying genes that can resault in certain diseases, I have been a dog owner for years and i am all to familiar with the heart break of getting a puppy only to find out later that it does have a serious genetic problem, so now when I get a puppy  like my chinese crested that is know to have serious genetic health issues I  choose a breeder that does do dna clearances of the parents before breeding so that I am guaranteed not to have a young dog whose femur heads  won;t start rotting away at 2 years old or a host of other genetic disorders.   Even behaviour such as severe shyness can be inherited, my one greyhound is a spook  her fearfulness is very extreme, she has a strong family pedigree with well known spooks in her lines, the interesting thing  is these pups are born normal acting  and display the normal curiousity  then as they going through puberty and the hormones kick in  their behaviour starts changing drastically and they start developing severe coping problem around strangers or to change and develop severe paranoias in somes if they become too scared their body temperature will soar as a result of severe trembling to the point  where there body is no longer able to cool itself down which can result in brain damage, coma, seizures and death unless the dog is cool  down manually  ex immersing in cold water.

DNA research is still in its infancy but science has already proven that homosexuality is indeed genetic. 




< Message edited by Maya2001 -- 5/18/2008 7:43:20 AM >

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 7:47:17 AM   
hopelesslyInvo


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Status: offline 		how do you figure the mind and the body are even similar?  they're so different there's no reason to get into it, the mind develops directly due to any and all experiences and there is no right and wrong and such words are only subjective, the body develops regardless of surroundings unless something causes a problem, and there's a huge assortment of correct and deformations to go along with regarding physical aspects. 

anything else worth saying is that regarding the bodies response to arousal is simply that the body is controlled by the mind, it reacts only as the mind wills it.  your attraction is in the mind, your bodies response and physical sensation is the brain having the body function accordingly.  

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 8:00:16 AM   
hopelesslyInvo


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Status: offline 		and in 1999 it was discovered there is no statistically significant linkage at all; nothing in sexual attraction has been genetically proven either way, only speculated both ways.  don't throw beliefs and suspicions around as proof, science comes to the wrong conclusions often enough in the first place.

and come on, attraction is not a condition, it's not a disorder, it's not a deviation of normal health, or normal state of mind.  it can't be cured, it can't be diagnosed, it can't be treated, there's nothing wrong or right about being attracted to something or not, it's silly to compare it to such a thing.


< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 5/18/2008 8:03:31 AM >

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 9:56:21 AM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelesslyInvo

how do you figure the mind and the body are even similar?  they're so different there's no reason to get into it, the mind develops directly due to any and all experiences and there is no right and wrong and such words are only subjective, the body develops regardless of surroundings unless something causes a problem, and there's a huge assortment of correct and deformations to go along with regarding physical aspects. 

anything else worth saying is that regarding the bodies response to arousal is simply that the body is controlled by the mind, it reacts only as the mind wills it.  your attraction is in the mind, your bodies response and physical sensation is the brain having the body function accordingly.  


Your statement that "the mind develops directly due to any and all experiences" is not supported in any way as far as I am aware. Again, we know very little about the brain and the mind and how they work; it is one of many things the scientific community is actively working on.

Considering the number of things the body has done that people have very adamantly NOT willed, your second statement borders on ludicrous. I never willed an attraction to anyone or any activity; the attraction was simply there. In fact, when one TRIES to will attraction, it generally fails. ("I just don't feel that way about you, no matter how hard I try.") One can certainly resist or try to ignore an attraction, but the attraction itself exists regardless.

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 10:56:53 AM   
hopelesslyInvo


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Status: offline 		supported?  it's common knowledge, what does science need to waste time proving the obvious for?  anything you see or experience gets taken in, even if it's not understood, and that affects mentality, that causes the mind (not the physical brain) to develop, the mind is self learning and it never stops, and the speed and level is based on subjection, was there ever any question to that, how does that not register?  was there any doubt the brain also controls all voluntary and involuntary bodily functions?

people don't "very adamantly" do much of anything once a rudimentary level of articulation is accomplished.  you don't have to focus your willpower to get your fingers to type or write something down, you simply think of what you are going to write and do so.  you don't think about moving your legs, you think of where you're going and how to get there.  these are simple gestures that require no avid amount of concentration or adamant will to accomplish; holding your hand in front of you and moving your fingers is complex as hell in technicality and does so because of signals sent from your brain to that part of you body, but it is so simple for a person to do it is difficult to even begin to explain how you do it.  you don't have to focus your mind on chewing food, and you especially aren't voluntarily moving the organs inside of your body such as digesting the food.  you don't have to worry about neglecting to make your heart beat, the brain takes care of such things without need of your conscious mind, but it's because of the brain that your body functions at all.  that's basic grade school health class knowledge.  brain tells body, body does, body communicates with the brain, brain tells body how to react; the body is a puppet for your mind.  your brain is even what sends your body into puberty.  brain brain brain brain brain.  subconcious or not, willful or not.

what's ludicrous is saying a healthy body doesn't work in such a way because there are people that have failing organs or disorders that occur.   the best example to counter such a theory is like how a chicken may still move with its head removed, or how a body may spasm after death, or that starfish don't even have brains, feel free to make a point using such knowledge, but keeping humans the highlight of subject, our hearts and other organs don't keep beating when contact with the brain is severed.  common knowledge.

now you want to talk about willing attraction, that's subjective, that's the territory of the mind, not a physical domain. covered that before, you don't believe me, what can i tell you.  contrary to popular quips, penises and the like don't have brains of their own, my penis isn't attracted to anything, my mind is, that is to say "i am".  yes, yes, we're all aware physical reactions happen around such an attraction, but if you think this physical response occurs because of any other part of your body besides your brain... i'm very adamantly going to will myself to stop trying to convince you of it.

it's pretty apparent that despite what people are attracted to, some people still can't "get it up", but the brain is in fact what controls 'getting it up' and 'letting it down' and will do so unless there's a problem in the "hardware", but since when was that ever really a question either? 

maybe you should go back and re-read, i never said people could control or decide their attractions, i said i find the theory that we are born with these attractions and preferences, or that some defunct chromosone is going to force my mind to think the cock is suddenly just really awesome at a certain stage of my life to be utter bullshit.  maybe i have too much love for the concept of freewill than to believe i'm not in control of my own thoughts, and believe that my mind can think for itself, which would by all implications mean it is working correctly.

even if there was some abnormality gene that causes homosexuality, that would only support the theory that there is something truly wrong with being homosexual, which i find to a very unhuman way to think, and surely if it's inherited, it makes you wonder why the first man/woman ended up liking their own gender, because we're "hard wired" to work like nature intended.  i guess i just look at the fact people often change orientation or other preferences such as food, to simply be a process of individuality, development, change, and freewill within the mind.  even in a supported theory of people being born a certain way, the idea that people don't, won't, or can't change is simply absurd. 

surely anyone with a moderate experience of being alive can attest to such occurences within their own life.


< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 5/18/2008 11:15:42 AM >

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 12:53:39 PM   
SensibleSam


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Status: offline 		The simple truth is that no ones really knows very much about BDSM or kinkiness. Nor is this situation likely to change very soon. The NIH hasn't issued any RFPs for major studies on the kinky. OK, I'm guessing about that, but I used to track NIH RFPs when I was a contract research consultant and I don't remember seeing any then. If I'm wrong about more recent research funding trends - please correct me. 

That said I will now present my personal speculative opinions.

First of all the analogy for homosexuality to BDSM is tricky. Male homosexuality has clear neurological signs. There are a number of neural nuclei in the hypothalmus that are different in male gays from the pattern seen in male straights. As far as I know there has been no similar inspection work done on kinky brains. 

The male homosexual brain has a pattern of hypothalmic nuclei that is similar to the pattern seen in heterosexual females and different from that seem in heterosexual males. At first this finding was atributed to AIDS but recent work seems to indicate that it is inborn - that is present at birth.

Inborn phenomena can result from genetic effects or from pre-natal effects. It was also first thought that the female like pattern seen in male homosexual brains was genetic. Of course any kind of homosexuality bears a very large selective disadvantage so it wasn't likely that the genetic mechanism could be classically Mendelian. Certain novel mechanisms were proposed, one being that the hypothetical male homosexual gene conferred higher fecundity on the man's female relatives (mostly sisters). Lately however this hypothesis has fallen out of favor as has the whole notion that male gayness is genetic.

More recently the disease theory of homosexuality has gained favor. Greg Cochran and Harry Harpening have recently promulgated a number of novel theories to answer such questions as: Why are Jews so smart? Why do gays exist?

Cochran speculates that homosexuality is caused by a virus or bacterium. There had been no direct evidence for this view until it was discovered that exclusive homosexuality exists among domestic sheep where it is considered a disease that damages breeding. There is a major university research project underway to "cure" sheep homosexuality. PETA and Martina Navratolova want to stop the project for differing reasons.
 
So it may be that male homosexuality is a disease that results in the characteristic neural pattern seen in homosexual men and homosexual sheep. As far as I know no one believes that there is any such virus or bacteria at work in kinky brains.

Simple Darwinian mechanisms argue against there being a genetic component in male homosexuality. That is to say homosexuality decreases the number of offspring. However most heterosexual kinksters I know are more sexually active than the mainstream. Presumably BDSM produces more offspring rather than less. If this is true BDSM would tend to be reinforced by natural selection. That is to say it would be a behavior that would be maintained by genetics.  

According to Cocrhan male exclusive homosexuality is only seen in humans and sheep (this is disputed by gay activists). Dominance behavior however is widely seen in the animal kingdom. Sex and dominance/submission are close to universal among primates as well as infra-primate mammals and many birds.

This means that male homosexuality is less fundamental than BDSM. It is possible to conceive of a near term world where male homosexuality no longer exists. That situation might be brought about by something as simple as an interuterine test. No such test now exists but there have been laws introduced in state and national legislatures to outlaw any such test because it is feared that all male homosexual fetuses would be aborted.

It is hard to conceive of any such test for kinkiness. I believe this is because in the wider non-Gaussian sense BDSM is "normal".

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 12:57:45 PM   
StrangerThan


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Status: offline 		Born that way?  There yet may be some study that comes out linking a genetic trait to those who Dominate and those who submit, but as of yet, I don't think there's any evidence of it. (Probably no real studies either.) What there is plenty of evidence for however, is that your childhood, your environment are powerful shapers of who and what you eventually become, and if not become, what you struggle with day to day. Aggressive tendencies have been linked to heritability. So it makes sense that the lean towards kink could be, but up front, I think the link is much more than just a simple batch of genetic codes.

One of the most fascinating aspects of human behavior to me is how situations can be subtle in transposing a particular act or need without being obvious. Practicioners of subliminal advertising back when it was the big thing knew well enough that the brain often perceived things even though the conscious mind did not. How that relates into growing up kinky is more a question of how the brain processes information to me, how it in fact, was hard wired during those early years.

And we know that as well. How many times have you included something in a scene or in your play that you knew would get the other going regardless of whether you actually touched on it? I had a submissive once where simply the sight of a knife laid out among the other instruments worked amazing wonders. Shrug. It's a topic that has no real answer, but is fascinating enough on it's own.

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 1:16:21 PM   
Maya2001


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Status: offline 		Social conditioning  also prevents some people from acting on the cards they were dealt with,  this goes the same with behaviours  as some are genetically more aggressive or shy but condition can help to modify change ....... but consider it this way if a person is gay   but how happy or satisifies will they be in a  hetro relationship using conditioning  and they going to be as content and happy as one that was genetically born hetro   ....no

lets move on to 2007 research that also shows genetics is a factor  http://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html 

I have a dog that is a genetic spook her pedigree lines have been traced back to several dogs that were known spooks   ... I have spent 5 years conditioning her I have managed to temper the fears from a paranoia state to where she can function now  with in certain boundaries  and accept seeing and hearing people   from a safe distance  but she will never be a normal dog, she will always need her safe zones and boundaries inorder to be functional  inorder to be crippled from terrors, if something happened to me where I could not care for her and she had to be relocated she would revert right back to the dog she was when I got her...  she is the second dog that I have got that was like this the first had been in a prior home had her boundaries before coming to mine so I have experience with those that revert to the original state again .. and they share some common  lines in their pedigree ... my point being that with something that is genetic yes conditioning and we can override  but to a degree it may not be the 100%  for some it may be 60%  so  so can take it or leave it others may be 98% happy     and some   may only reach 20%   miserable  trying to be what they are not meant to be because they chose to try and fit under societal rules.

even if there was some abnormality gene that causes homosexuality, that would only support the theory that there is something truly wrong with being homosexual,
why does it have to be considered an abnormal gene?????Genes determines traits and behaviours---- it a person with black skin or one that has blue eyes,  or A+ blood type  a result of bad genes  or one that simply a chromosonal  trait??    Many  want to argue and reject the view simply because they say it would indicate a defect, homosexuality has been around for thousands of years , it is the church and social conditioning that has taught us it is bad or wrong   if that conditioning did not exist that maybe we could accept it as a normal genetic trait instead of going with an automatic assumption that it is a defect...   Some people view  agression/dominance in dogs   as a negative trait   ... I view it is simply  a trait, it helps to determine which one will be leaders, the ones best able to compete and those that will have to most self confidence  the one that will make the best police dog or agility dog or even the best dams .   A trait is only bad if you choose to label it as such. 

Genes that have missing or extra chromosones codes  are the ones the usually relate to disease/ defect,   that is different than  say a chromosone coded   for sexuality,  behaviour, skin color or  eye color  traits ...a variation does not have to equal defect

Your a lot younger so you have live in a world much more accepting of homosexuality, I have seen the other side  and know many homosexuals who struggled  with trying  to be hetro they wanted nothing to do with being homo and feared it themselves  they did not want to be outcasts that were ganged up and beaten so they forced themselves to try and be hetros incliding getting married  and were miserable,  often many finally accepted years  later   and finally found peace with themselves and well as happiness.    And I am sure  they  would be disagreeing with your theories adamantly  because they tried    it is more than just a matter of thinking




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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 1:25:06 PM   
DragonLadysFire


Posts: 167
Joined: 12/8/2007
Status: offline 		I was born this way, but getting it from my parents is debatable.

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 1:42:42 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		As for kinkiness there likely is not gene but there are genes for other certain behaviour traits that are genetic such as dominance, openess, agreeableness or  extraversion  that would make us more likely to be... depending where we fall on the scale ,  we are likely  more extraverted in particular Doms ( extraverts/extroverts are gregarious, assertive, and generally seek out excitement). we will be on different ends of the dominance/submissive scale,   we will be high on the openess/agreeableness  scale which would allow us to act on our kinks and fantasies

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 2:47:20 PM   
hopelesslyInvo


Posts: 522
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: the future
Status: offline 		quoted right from the link you provided containing inconclusive results.

quote:

For virtually none of them is heredity ever close to predictive.

quote:

heritability is not to be confused as inevitability.

quote:

environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present.

quote:

whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations.

quote:

environment, particularly childhood experiences as well as the role of free will choices affect all of us in profound ways.

quote:

it's critical that such data be used to illuminate, not provide support to idealogues.

quote:

the "evidence"... "grabbed headlines," but was "wildly overstated."

quote:

Unfortunately, much of the research in areas such as homosexuality, has been not only misrepresented in the media but by the scientists themselves through the tendency to overestimate the quantitative contribution of their findings.

quote:

depending on how loosely you define homosexuality.
(lol)
quote:

he recruited in venues where "participants considered the sexual orientation of their co-twins before agreeing to participate."

quote:

both the data from the heritability index and the proportion support the conclusion that homosexuality is not hardwired (or simply biologically fated).

quote:

However, the conclusion is the same: current data provides little evidence to support the conclusion that homosexuality is hardwired.


right so, what else is there to say?  even the scientists that believe in there being a chance of hereditary homosexuality agree no one is born gay, and that experience and free will trump it still, that unpredictability will never cease.

quote:

if a person is gay   but how happy or satisifies will they be in a  hetro relationship

was it ever my point that people should lie to or deny themselves?  why would such a notion come up then?

quote:

why does it have to be considered an abnormal gene?????Genes determines traits and behaviours---- it a person with black skin or one that has blue eyes,  or A+ blood type  a result of bad genes  or one that simply a chromosonal  trait??


i'm pretty sure that staying far away from religion, and even putting aside politics, morals, and ethics... the very common sense logic of "penis goes in vagina" as nature intended, which is important to reproduce and not become extict is pretty undeniable as to what consititutes "abnormal".  the only way nature would intend humanity to be gay is if nature wanted humans extict, homosexuality isn't an evolution to further humanity, nor any slight benefit to humanity's continued existence, so i'm pretty sure it's safe to say it's uhhh "abnormal".  skin color, eye color, blood type, these are things of no consequence to nature, variances of no literal importance, and these don't really have any sensibility as to which is the natural and logical way of being.

abnormal or not, i've grown to not shun it; whether people are born gay or become gay, i don't see it as a choice they make, i don't see one or the other as right or wrong, but i definitely see it, just as i see so many other things as being unnatural, i don't feel i'm being harsh or judgemental in such a plain and simple fact.  labeling something as bad is hard to justify, labeling it as abnormal is quite easy.  enjoying pain is pretty fucking abnormal too wouldn't you agree?  to call masochism a bad thing though, that's just being naive and inhuman.

i'm sure as everyone loves to point out, i haven't seen the world and experienced things that others have due to my age, but i've been around plenty, and i see such things still exist.  my pity goes out to people who are victims of self righteous prejudice, but my point stands the same as it started.  people don't choose their orientations or attractions, but neither did their conception.  people change unpredictably and often, but no absolutes are given that they will or won't "be", or "change" anything, it's very apparent that this is the case.  i definitely consider this fortunate, for if we couldn't change, we'd be very sad indeed, for all efforts in compassion and understanding would be wasted.


< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 5/18/2008 2:54:36 PM >

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RE: Kinkiness an Inherited Trait?! - 5/18/2008 6:06:16 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Or as I like to say- orientation is innate.  Expression of orientation is learned.

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