RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice

RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 6:54:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator A soldier (sailor, airman, marine or coastguardsman) does not make policy - they are an instrument of policy. They are a tool used to further America's politcical goals via the projection of leathal force on whoever, wherever, and however they are directed by the commander in chief and the officers appointed above them. I didnt need a reason, an explanation, a justification, some moral explanation, or any of that other mamby pamby bullshit. All I needed was a target and a lawful order to attack and destroy that target. (...) where there may or may not be civilians, including women and children. I didn't pick the targets I prosecuted them. (...) They taught me how, they told me when and where, and I didnt need to know why. It didn't matter. That was decided above my paygrade. The only thing a soldier needs is an unqualified, unwavering, unconditional belief in the unified chain of command. So much for needing a brain [8\|] .

DomAviator -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 7:23:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol So much for needing a brain [8\|] . Yeah and I was also 23 years old with responsibility for a $22,000,000 jet aircraft that had a take off weight of 58,600 pounds that was being flown from a billion dollar plus nuclear powered warship that I also had to stand watches on as I was "unrestricted line". Thats probably why I needed to have an engineering degree from an outstanding college (Ranked fourth in the USA) with a 3.87 GPA, make it through OCS, make it through API, then make it through over a year of flight training - a process where more than 3/4 fell by the wayside... Thousands of soldiers and marines lived because of the close air support it was my job to provide, and the isrealis didnt get gassed because of the SCUDs and chemical munitions depots we took out saving tens of thousands of lives by flying 500kts plus, sometimes as low as 50 feet above the ground alone in the dark... No brains required at all. If only miltary people were as smart as you... LOL Never mind actually fly one, I'd like to see you figure out how to actually sit in a military aircraft and fasten your harness in a way that wont rip your limbs off in flight or break your neck on landing...

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 7:30:19 AM)
You're such a hero! You must be so proud. So, what happened?

Owner59 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 10:36:48 AM)
He got bounced,like George Jr.

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 10:38:20 AM)
Or it's an elaborate fantasy.

Owner59 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 10:41:32 AM)
Probably the latter..

DomAviator -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 10:59:38 AM)
Did my time on active duty, then went reserve. Got called back to active duty, went back, came back out again and remain on nondrilling reserve status (IRR) probably to never be recalled again due to age, changes in aircraft types, and not having flying billets available at my rank... (If I were to be recalled again, it would mean I would have to be an XO of a squadron, and they have plenty of those to draw from the active duty ranks). Essentially, I did exactly what all of them do... Put in my time, and then took the six million dollars worth of free turbine time entered in my log book and put it to use earning a comfy civilian living. Thats the way flying works - there are two career pathways. 1) Go military, get the best training in the world for free and come out with a logbook full of great time that will get you hired anywhere. or 2) Spend $40,000 of your own money picking up ratings until you have a commercial and flight instructor certificate and 250 hours. Then instruct in little Cessnas earning about $10 an hour till you have 1000 hours and an insurance company will actually let you fly something other than a trainer, then pick up every little shit job from towing banners to crop dusting to flying tours and charters and being a freight dog at night until you can get a shit first officer job in a corporate jet or commuter airline until you have that magic 1000 hours of turbine time and become marketable... I took the military pathway.

Politesub53 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 10:59:53 AM)
Much of what has been written here really matters. The big concern is how its viewed in the Muslim world, and the effect that has on any efforts for peace.

nameonhold -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 11:37:10 AM)
Don't know if this thought has already been mentioned because I haven't read every post on this tread, so please bear with me if someone else has already mentioned it. I am in full agreement that using a copy of Quran for target practice does NOT serve a constructive diplomatic end. That said, I will note that none of folks who have commented on this thread can be found on the tread denouncing the most recent .... or any .... US flag burning in some "swill-water" town someplace in the middle-east. There's a reason your names can't be found, there isn't even a thread on the topic ! My thought is that everyone, Americans and Muslims would be better served if Americans had a back-bone, adhered to a standard of conduct, and insisted that those who wish to be apart of the civilize universe, adhere to it as well. I can't remember the last time anyone got their knickerbockers in a knot over the burning of an American flag. Of course not, we're too busy kissing the ass of the flag burners, refusing to insist the same standard of conduct from them that we should be expecting of ourselves. Of course we have people taking target practice on the Quran ! We don't give a crap when someone burns our flag .... why should others get in a snit when we shoot the Quran ? Twisted logical I'll agree. But it's the way it is folks. Without a doubt, our standards have devolved into the toilet.

nameonhold -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 11:42:16 AM)
I wonder how the folks at Anhauser Busch feel about their beer cans being used for target practice ?

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 11:43:17 AM)
The US Army themselves admitted that it was an unfortunate episode that reflected badly on its image. The forces of occupation keep on clamouring their legitimate presence on Iraqi soil; the least they can do is not act like thugs - higher standards, remember?

FullCircle -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 11:48:54 AM)
I have no problem with people shooting at nonsense books; it's the shooting at people I don't like.

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 11:50:20 AM)
Good point, although one could argue that were people not shot at in the first place, the sniping of a book wouldn't have mattered so much.

FullCircle -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 11:52:50 AM)
Indeed, one could argue that. What I would worry about is the person doing it obviously sees all Muslims as the enemy much like people put the object of their hatred up for target practice in my case it's the boss on my dartboard. I question if that is the ideal person to be policing that environment.

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 11:53:34 AM)
And we just did... next! [8D]

SteelofUtah -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 12:29:09 PM)
Hold up were we in a War action at the time of this shooting Practice or were we trying to again instill peace and order? If we were at a standstill would this action not be considered an act of hostility toward the other side? This guy should be court martialed if I remember correctly and he should also recieve a dishonorable discharge for his actions should he not? I was never in the Military so I am looking to those who were to answer this for me. Steel

camille65 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 12:36:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol So much for needing a brain [8\|] . Hey Kittin do you want every soldier to question orders before acting? Do you actually want each one to question inside themselves, then go up the chain of command still questioning orders? That is not how a soldier NEEDS to be. If they question every act and every order then the entire system breaks down.Now you give the strong impression you would love for that very system to be broken down but it simply must not happen right now.

Termyn8or -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 12:37:29 PM)
I think that's getting a little out of hand. DA makes a good point, but he also makes mine, so don't pick on him. Fourth in the country with a 3.87 DA ? Now that's tough school. Sounds like it makes UWM look like a basket weaving school. There are different kinds of intelligence. But I would say that respecting a chain of command is not a sign of it that I can detect. There is technical knowledge, something I have in spades, yet I can't read or write. I mean it, you wirte me a letter in cursive handwriting I can't hardly read a word of it. And when I write, even printing, it is hard to read. I mean I will write a part number in a job ticket and people will come and ask WTF is this ? But give me something with ICs and transistors and I am right at home. Give me the schematic of a complex elecronic device and I will know how it works before you could read the theory of operation text. But I have almost no idea how to make a loaf of bread. A soldier's training is designed a certain way. There is of course the physical aspect of it, but it is also a form of mental engineering. Specific in purpose, it seems to be successful. Actually DA and I do not agree on alot of things, but I know just flying a plane is not fucking easy. Actually one thing I got from my formal education was how to fly a plane, and a helicopter. I have never done it, but should a pilot have a heart attack or keel over for some other reason, I would be a damn good choice to sit there and get "talked down", because I know the concepts. And knowing these concepts, I would not want to have to do it. But I would do it if necessary. I also understand the mass involved, the difficulties seeing where you are, all that. You are waiting for that hopefully little thud when the wheels hit the ground (hopefully you lowered the landing gear) and if it happens too late you throttle back up and pull. Abort the landing or you are dead. But put me on an oil tanker and I am totally fucking clueless. Exxon Valdez get out of the way ! There are so many specific kinds of knowledge. Of being a soldier all I ever learned was out on the mean streets. When in an adversarial situation I cared not for the well being or beliefs of my enemy, not at all. That is a natural reaction. But I did not fuck with their families. That was limited to possibly, once or twice somebody might see their Dad get their ass kicked. Can't help that. But you have to understand that we ask soldiers to have like a dual mentality. They must see someone as an enemy who has done nothing to them. You are damnear asking them to be an automaton, to not feel any hate, yet KILL KILL KILL. It's really not fair. But it can be done because hate is optional. Do you hate your sparring partner or an opponent in a test of strength, whether a boxing match or who knows ? If on a football team, do you hate the other team ? Hell no. And these people are trying to beat you to a pulp. But you get this attitude that "All's fair in love and war". Well all is NOT fair in love and war and I think this is the issue at hand. But look at us. We forced the English language on the Native Americans, but found out that might cause problems later because they could then read the treaties and the laws we broke in our dealings with them. Then they brought the Black slaves and made it illegal to teach them to read or write. Yes we have learned a few things over the years. But then we have a civil war and it is no joke that it was brother against brother. Yet the victor punished their own countrymen, which by the way, the whole fight was about forcing them to remain their countrymen. Reconstruction was one of the worst things to date, back then. But we have risen to new heights. But the guy who shot the book should not have done it. As a representative of a country that preaches religious, as well as other tolerance his act was plain wrong. This was not in the spirit of the ideals of this nation. We must embrace and be guided by these ideals in every thing we do, or we are the worst hypocrites in the world, literally. (notice I used two words instead of 'everything') Is anyone up to that ? T

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 12:49:24 PM)
Hey Camille - have you heard of WWII? "I was just obeying orders". Not good, not good at all [8\|] . Should professional, enlisted soldiers be respected a priori, purely on the basis of their choice of profession? I certainly don't. So yes, allow me some space for fantasy here on this board, and the space to argue in disfavour of a system that is abhorrent, criminal and inhumane (see: post 81).

MissIsis -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/19/2008 1:00:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or As a representative of a country that preaches religious, as well as other tolerance his act was plain wrong. This was not in the spirit of the ideals of this nation. We must embrace and be guided by these ideals in every thing we do, or we are the worst hypocrites in the world, literally. (notice I used two words instead of 'everything') Is anyone up to that ? T Seriously, I do not practice religious tolerance at all. Too many wars have been started, too much innocent blood has been shed in the name of religions. The names just change. I think most of them are without innocence. The catholic church.... How many died between Ireland & England. What about the natives of Ireland being killed & driven out of their own lands by the church of the hour? Or the churches before then going back probably before Moses & his people were enslaved. Religions mired in violence & extremeism....... There are very few so called religions that are exempt. So as for religious tolerance..... Let's not forget the religious zealots in the states that voted for Bush twice, I will not be practicing religious tolerance anytime soon, no matter who or what in my country is supposed to stand for. We'd all be better off without any of these religions.

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