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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 1:12:30 PM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
So much for needing a brain  .
 Hey Kittin do you want every soldier to question orders before acting?  Do you actually want each one to question inside themselves, then go up the chain of command still questioning orders? That is not how a soldier NEEDS to be. If they question every act and every order then the entire system breaks down.Now you give the strong impression you would love for that very system to be broken down but it simply must not happen right now.


The world would be a better place for it.

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(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 1:19:08 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Sandra, I was beginning to think I was the only idealist left on these forum boards  .

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(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 1:31:52 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Kittin, do you think you could hit a Ko-ran at 100 yards?
That there's some purdy fancy shootin'!

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 1:39:07 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I'd rather hit you with a feather  .

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 2:29:34 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

So what, I don't care if it was the Quran, Talmud, Bible, Protocols or the original Silent Weapons, it is but a piece of paper.


Unfortunately to many it is a collection of ideals, and words from those that are so esteemed, people will die for it. You may not like it, but it is a fact.

quote:


A flag is nothing but a piece of cloth.


Again a flag is more than that to many people, and that is a fact. A flag can show National Esteem, or embodiment of ideals, so to some if you attack it, you are attacking those ideals.

quote:


Humans are so into symbolism, and that goes for the shooting at the Quran as well. It was like he was flexing his muscle, not an appealing act, not in the least.


Yes humans are into symbolism, and is actually one of the main ways that the human mind processes information. It is no wonder though that it is taken too far by some, because moderation is something we often do not practice either.

quote:


While these symbols mean ABSOLUTELY nothing to me, to coexist in society I have to realize that they mean something to someone else. To be a member of an occupying force and shoot up a holy book of the occupied country is a show of hubris, and IMO ignorance.


I am sure this military person knew exactly what they were doing, and they were making a personal statement with it. We are into symbolism after all.

quote:


But then if the guy had a brain and could get a good job I doubt he would be in the military. So go ahead and add to the hurt that we put on them for no good reason. The hunt is on. But let me give y'all one piece of advice :


Kind of unjust to lump all persons in the military, into one pile now isn't it? I would imagine that it is misdirected anger, which is the root problem that got us there.

quote:


Kill them all, they are never going to stop being pissed off at us, ever. If Iraqis came here and did to this country what we did to theirs, how would you feel ?


Would fight them with my last breath or until I was psychologically broken and no longer cared.

quote:


And if they did come I would buy, beg, borrow and steal them all the Bibles I possibly could for their target practice, because that mutherfucker is what got us into this fucking mess.

T


By doing this you validate what is being done. It is a horrible trap, but we need to recognize the human flaw that has gotten us into this situation, and stop blaming something external. If you removed all religion, eventually something else would cause a division, and it would be due to manipulation of the masses by an ideal that has gone past moderation.

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(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 2:29:44 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
So much for needing a brain  .
 Hey Kittin do you want every soldier to question orders before acting?  Do you actually want each one to question inside themselves, then go up the chain of command still questioning orders? That is not how a soldier NEEDS to be. If they question every act and every order then the entire system breaks down.Now you give the strong impression you would love for that very system to be broken down but it simply must not happen right now.


The world would be a better place for it.


No the world would not be a better place. There would be a lot of dead soldiers. Popeye, I undertsand you were USCG. Care to enlighten the genteel crowd on what would have happened to your life expectancy, and that of your shipmates, if you decided to start questioning orders, developed your own boarding procedures, figured eh - maybe taking weapons with us might offend someone etc??? LOL Or maybe if you started to look out the window and say "FUCK THAT! They want us to go out there? In this weather? Not me!" That would have kind of defeated the whole purpose wouldnt it? LOL

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 2:48:28 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Feeling worked up much  ?

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 4:25:34 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I'd rather hit you with a feather  .


Popeye, sounds like kitt wants to tickle your ass with a feather, you lucky dog, you.


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 5:22:34 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
So much for needing a brain  .
 Hey Kittin do you want every soldier to question orders before acting?  Do you actually want each one to question inside themselves, then go up the chain of command still questioning orders? That is not how a soldier NEEDS to be. If they question every act and every order then the entire system breaks down.Now you give the strong impression you would love for that very system to be broken down but it simply must not happen right now.


The world would be a better place for it.


No the world would not be a better place. There would be a lot of dead soldiers. Popeye, I undertsand you were USCG. Care to enlighten the genteel crowd on what would have happened to your life expectancy, and that of your shipmates, if you decided to start questioning orders, developed your own boarding procedures, figured eh - maybe taking weapons with us might offend someone etc??? LOL Or maybe if you started to look out the window and say "FUCK THAT! They want us to go out there? In this weather? Not me!" That would have kind of defeated the whole purpose wouldnt it? LOL


Aviator, it wouldn't have ended in a good way most likely.

CJan, oh yeah, KittinSol is *HOT* for me!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 5:35:54 PM   
ClitCutter


Posts: 27
Joined: 12/6/2006
Status: offline 		I notice that soldier got his wrist slapped & then got sent out of the country! 
I predict a reduction in soldier suicides and an increase in Quran shootings (if anyone over there is paying attention).
Line 'em up!  How many Quran's will 1 bullet go thru?  Contests to hit the Quran swinging from a string. 
What the heck ... put the Ayatollah's picture up and shoot it too!
If that's the only way soldiers can get outta that corporate oil war that shrub started ... they should go for it!





(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 7:02:58 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClitCutter

I notice that soldier got his wrist slapped & then got sent out of the country! 
I predict a reduction in soldier suicides and an increase in Quran shootings (if anyone over there is paying attention).
Line 'em up!  How many Quran's will 1 bullet go thru?  Contests to hit the Quran swinging from a string. 
What the heck ... put the Ayatollah's picture up and shoot it too!
If that's the only way soldiers can get outta that corporate oil war that shrub started ... they should go for it!







I was think`n he should stay there for the duration doing latrine duty.

Nice nic,btw.

(in reply to ClitCutter)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/19/2008 7:04:49 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

ClitCutter

Nice nic,btw.


Are you kidding  ?!!!

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 12:51:17 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Sandra, I was beginning to think I was the only idealist left on these forum boards  .


That would be a sad thing indeed.
If hope for something better dies, what would be left?

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 2:11:12 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		I am an idealist, I am optimistic about the future. However I am not naive enough to think that if soldiers start to question every order it will improve anything.That would only leave us terribly vulnerable in a world with some terrible people that have terrible weapons. In combat there simply is not time for a soldier to question orders because that would break down the entire line and put far too many at risk. I don't think my opinion is cold or cruel at all but more of a sad reality that can't be changed at this point in time. Not when we have so many people there that depend on our ability to protect and yes, to fight. I detest fighting in any manner which I think even Kittin will acknowledge. But if we lay down arms today it would only end in slaughter and that surely is something I don't want for the people there. I think it was an horrific mistake to begin all this crap but the fact is that it has started. We are in the middle of the mess now and it's going to take time to end it. It's going to take something much more than questioning orders and causing chaos. IMO this is one of the uglier threads running at the moment.

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 2:23:29 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		A soldier surely should follow orders.

At your poitn of peopele beeing slaughtered over there. I think now there are more slaughtered then ever.
Dictatorship is ofcourse the worst that can happen, but Irakian peopel on tv said..they were happier then..because it was safe to go into the streets.
They could live then and feel a certain level of freedom.
Full freedom is not everything..when you have no food and your life is not safe.

One thing America also must understand is...that even when people have problems..they don't always want foreigners on their soil.
A long time America was safe (which is great) for attacks (pearl harbour and 911 are the ones I remember) from the outside. I think that safety made it eassy for them to put their nose into everything. Far away from home..safe and secure. That is propably true, but sometime you will get hit back when you are to nosy. 
I agree with most actions America does, but this one is complicated..because it was based on false information....and the UK and Europe followed this.
Our politicians made us look very bad in the world. And our enemy will just fight harder now.
You can't fight or occupy an unhappy nation for very long. They will rebel and will take any risk to get their freedom.



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(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 4:51:41 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

IMO this is one of the uglier threads running at the moment.



Goes to show how personal taste is.

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 5:02:23 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

IMO this is one of the uglier threads running at the moment.


Goes to show how personal taste is.
 You don't think people jabbing at others, seeking out certain posts to respond to in a deliberately inflammatory way it ugly?
That is a bit surprising but then I've always had the habit of seeing the best in people with occasional misjudgements and or disappointments.

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 5:13:43 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No, I don't see that this thread is particularly laddened with jabbing. A couple of other threads spring to mind, however, where you didn't seem to mind doing some jabbing yourself.

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 6:03:01 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080520/ts_nm/iraq_bush_apology_dc

Well Bush is apologizing for it now, so it's apparently caused quite a stir.  If you read the article, you'll see they're going to prosecute this poor guy.  I don't know what law he broke, but I imagine they'll will try to make an example out of him with whatever violation of the UCMJ they can pin on him. 

Admittedly, it was a boneheaded thing to do.  But I assume this guy is probably 19-23 years old, and I don't expect guys that age to make the wisest decisions with their idle time.  I especially don't expect them to be the most sensitive people considering the stresses they are under. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 5/20/2008 6:31:11 AM >

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 6:18:01 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		  There is obligation to follow an unlawful order.None.

One may catch flack for it,if his commanders are true assholes.But no soldier will get harmed by refusing an unlawful order.

Case in point; A new book about the Abu-ghraib prison scandal was being discussed on NPR recently,when a Viet-Nam vet called in to recount some of his experiences during that war.

He recalled some guard duty on an outward position of their camp and a Sergent telling him to shoot any kids who were going through the camps garbage dump(looking for food/stuff.

He told the Sargent right there, that he wouldn`t do it.He recalled the flack he and others received for disobeying the illegal order,but that didn`t sway them.

He ended the call,saying the soldiers at Abu-ghraib could have refused unlawful orders but unfortunately,didn`t.He didn`t have any sympathy for them.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 120
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