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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 6:18:16 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

No, I don't see that this thread is particularly laddened with jabbing. A couple of other threads spring to mind, however, where you didn't seem to mind doing some jabbing yourself.
 Kittin you really seem to be taking stuff way too personally of late. I am sorry if you feel like I'm jabbing you in particular. I do my best to make my replies unemotional (unless I'm whining about something lol) and clearly of my own opinion. I try not to make things personal or make nasty comments.
If you and obviously you do feel that I've been jabbing at you then I'm sorry. The thread in 'Humor' as example, I was honestly trying to show you that yup some people thought that joke was funny and not about religion. The threads on here you and I are not seeing eye-to-eye agreed, but I never intentionally directed a post at you or followed you around to poke at you. Simply posts trying to either understand your opposing view or to clarify why I hold a particular view. Oddly you don't see that on this thread you have directed comments at me with pretty negative tones. So again I apologise for whatever it is I've done. I intensely dislike sqabbling and hostility and I really do strive to stay out of it all but sometimes I have an opinion that is contrast to another. 

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 6:26:05 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       I'm trying to figure out which article of the UCMJ they might hit him with, Slaveboy.  And if he already signed off on non-judicial punishment (the earlier mentioned 'slap on the wrist'), they can't touch him. 

     

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 6:39:35 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I'm sure its an offence in the British Army to discharge your weapon without authorisation

E

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 6:43:08 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Yeah, I can't figure out what they would do either.  All that's been said is that he was a Staff Seargent and a sniper.  He was expelled from Iraq and punished.  They haven't said what that punishment is, and now Bush is insisting there will be a prosecution.  He may just be paying lip service to the Iraqis, but I would think he wouldn't just say that without something in mind. 

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 6:45:24 AM   
calamitysandra


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Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Admittedly, it was a boneheaded thing to do.  But I assume this guy is probably 19-23 years old, and I don't expect guys that age to make the wisest decisions with their idle time.  I especially don't expect them to be the most sensitive people considering the stresses they are under. 


And there lies the problem.

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:03:47 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		He will wind up being charged with article 134 - the "General Article" which is essentially "anything not otherwise mentioned that brings discredit on the military" which is kind of the enlisted mans equivelant of "133 "Conduct Unbecoming an Officer and Gentleman". He will wind up with forfeiture of half a months pay and a punitive letter. UNLESS, the members show some guts and acquit him. Personally, I wish I could be seated as a member on that one. I wouldnt convict him of shit - as I said im my squadron, AS A SQUADRON ie from the fresh meat ringknocker Ensign to the XO and old man (CO), wiped our asses with the Quaran. There was a copy in the head, and we tore pages out. It was boys having fun... For chists sake - its war.... You think what he did was offensive, you should read some of the messages we had chalked on the bombs. (Anyone who served on a carrier in wartime pre Clinton knows EXACTLY what I mean about that one) 

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/20/2008 7:06:26 AM >

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:04:30 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		This seemingly benign incident opens up a whole can of worms about the behaviour of US troops on Iraqi soil.

quote:



In the counter-insurgency campaign, Coalition commanders have established permissive “rules of engagement” to insure a swift and unhesitating use of force and to minimize their own casualties. At checkpoints and roadblocks, during house-searches and other operations, these rules allow troops to open fire with little hesitation or restraint. Increasing use of air power, notoriously indiscriminate, has further escalated the casualties. Commanders have seen the killing of Iraqi non-combatants in military operations as regrettable but unavoidable “collateral damage.” This environment of extreme violence has produced a rising number of killings, murders and even atrocities, committed by Coalition forces against Iraqi civilians.



Global Policy Forum (warning: this makes for disturbing reading).

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/20/2008 7:05:03 AM >

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:12:44 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

And there lies the problem.


How is that a problem?  He didn't rape anyone, he didn't murder anyone.  He didn't seize the book from some Iraqi than play keep away with it before shooting it.  He shot a copy of the Quran.  Like I said, not too bright and he deserved an ass chewing over it.  But a court martial?  Give me a fucking break. 

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:14:44 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		There is nothing indiscriminate about the use of air power. If you watch the video below you will see that the pilots made sure they didnt hit the dog in the upper right . Watch, the dog made it away completely fine.... Attack pilots have hearts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wbRbjkLAsU


On a serious note if you listen to the radio communications on for example this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYxpkhpsTT0

You will see that air power is NOT used indiscriminately and the are not trigger happy cowboys shooting everything that moves...

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/20/2008 7:22:45 AM >

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:15:07 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Who knows the intricacies of the case? Maybe there's more to it than what was let out. It won't be the first time the Army will have done some obfuscating.

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:18:07 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

He told the Sargent right there, that he wouldn`t do it.He recalled the flack he and others received for disobeying the illegal order,but that didn`t sway them.

He ended the call,saying the soldiers at Abu-ghraib could have refused unlawful orders but unfortunately,didn`t.He didn`t have any sympathy for them.


Not to offend some one, but every organisation needs some basic level of intelligence.
People at a certain intelligence level tend to follow orders blindly (not saying they are stupid). They don't think. In the old wars..this was great. But in this time..we want people to think besides obeying.
Propably when this war takes longer...more untrained and less intelligent people ( i heard already about criminals) will be sent to Iraq. And we get more problems.



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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:24:27 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		The only thing that's preventing Iraq from turning into a bigger abomination than Vietnam is that during the latter, the soldiers were drafted.

This time, they're all voluntary, so there is NO excuse. I don't give a toss whether they're angry young men. If that's all they are, and they have an impulse control issue, they should be made to stay at home and get some therapy.




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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:27:36 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Well lets be fair then.  Why was there not outrage from the Muslim community when Palestinian guerillas used a bible for toilet paper during the seige of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem?  Which by the way is one of the most holy sites in Christianity. 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48147




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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:28:00 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

And there lies the problem.


How is that a problem?  He didn't rape anyone, he didn't murder anyone.  He didn't seize the book from some Iraqi than play keep away with it before shooting it.  He shot a copy of the Quran.  Like I said, not too bright and he deserved an ass chewing over it.  But a court martial?  Give me a fucking break. 


Court martial,doubt it.That is for Iraqi consumption and edification.

He`ll probably be patted on the back and treated like a celeb by his mates,friends and neighbors.

Unfortunately,this will get some GI`s killed or injured and will increase recruitment in the terrorists ranks.

Weird,how the guy who killed the puppy and YouTubed it, got death threats over his conduct and it didn`t put his mates in danger there.

I doubt that`ll happen with this clown,and he actually did put his mates in more danger.Weird.

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:34:14 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Well lets be fair then.  Why was there not outrage from the Muslim community when Palestinian guerillas used a bible for toilet paper during the seige of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem?  Which by the way is one of the most holy sites in Christianity. 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48147






That is an outrage,let the invasions start.

Let`s toss the Geneva Convention,Constitution,our good judgment out,while we torture guys into saying what we want,while we`re at it.


C`mon slaveboy.You know this looks bad and why.It`s not you(or me) that matters though.It`s how they (our hosts)view this,that matters.

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:52:55 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		The Congress hasn't declared "war."
Does the Geneva Conventions even apply here?
I know Clinton once said that "we'll follow the Geneva Conventions" but he's been out of office for quite some time now.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 7:58:02 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Depends which treaty you're talking about. The fourth Geneva Convention states:

quote:



Part I. General Provisions
This sets out the overall parameters for GCIV:
  • Article 2 states that signatories are bound by the convention both in war, armed conflicts where war has not been declared and in an occupation of another country's territory.



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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:00:14 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Well lets be fair then.  Why was there not outrage from the Muslim community when Palestinian guerillas used a bible for toilet paper during the seige of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem?  Which by the way is one of the most holy sites in Christianity. 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48147


the problem is propably the ? behind the remark in the text.
It seems that no one is sure if it happened or not. At least the terrorist is saying no...and not many others were saying yes.
Or they were just smarter...and let it rest

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:02:09 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		action against terrorism is not war..that is why they had Guantanamo Bay detention camp could gather endlessly information from all, have secret prissons in Europe. So no rules apply  ;) 

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/20/2008 8:03:16 AM >

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:06:04 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Quoi ?

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