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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:38:10 AM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		My question is, what kind of group did she or he shoot, at what distance, and with what weapons?

If the book was stolen from the mosque, punish the soldier for theft. If the soldier owned the book and was shooting in a safe area then it is none of my business if it was a Koran, a Torah, a Bible or a Book of Mormon.

I expect that some people might have objected to the Saddam Hussein targets too. Or the pictures of your boss with a crosshair superimposed.

If any of this is fact ( I am not real trusting of the media), then perhaps it was good the trooper got some stress out of her or his system blowing paper away instead of blowing away non-combatants.

_____________________________

As always, your mileage may vary!

vield

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:38:23 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Quick aside: I suspect you don't feel as 'laissez faire' when it comes to respecting the law of the land.



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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:39:37 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm saying Justme, that we can puff and blow and stamp our feet all we want and it will be to no avail whatever.

All of these rules, laws and regulations, agreements and treaties, conventions and so on are regularly interpreted to be whatever those in power wish them to be for their ends. We've seen it time and again - and it will ever be the same.

"Might maketh Right"

E


have to agree with that. Those agreements are there to makes us smile and make out goverments look good.
We are used to them cheating on us.

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/20/2008 8:40:08 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:40:11 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It looks as though you believe in nothing, LadyE. Please tell me you're not that cynical? I stick to my guns (haha!) : human rights rock my boat more than war and the murder of civilians.


Deeply cynical when it comes to matters like this Kittin. Experience has told me that whatever I might think is right and wrong, even if my glorious leaders represent my thinking in their propaganda, strategy is wholly based on what suits and what can by manipulative interpretation be supported by some recourse to legal reference. And where this latter fails, outright lies and might maketh right.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:40:26 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You may not agree with International Treaties, and wish to live as a troglodyte in a cave, but alas! You share the planet with a lot of other nations. They're here, they've been signed, and ratified, and at times, used for the benefit of your own country.


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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:41:21 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		Hes was stupid to get caught doing so an e-6 or wearing oak leafs, it was a dumb mistake on his part,I am a retired major and will stand by a man even if hes in the wrong as long as
he learns by his mistakes,,My nephew is in for over 3 years now and has made e-7, rank is easy to make is a war zone if you have your stuff together..bounty

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:45:29 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Quick aside: I suspect you don't feel as 'laissez faire' when it comes to respecting the law of the land.




Oh its not laissez faire Kittin - its acknowledging that the realities and the aims are vastly different to the aspirations as they are publicly represented. Its recognising that there is little or nothing I can do to affect events which are based on motivations and means well above my pay grade as a citizen or subject. Its choosing one's battles and directing one's efforts at things one finds objectionable which one can affect.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:45:43 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You may not agree with International Treaties, and wish to live as a troglodyte in a cave, but alas! You share the planet with a lot of other nations. They're here, they've been signed, and ratified, and at times, used for the benefit of your own country.



Can we get a side order of,..."Cum-Bay-Yah" with that?

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:50:13 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

There was no Al Quaida in Iraq. What are you talking about? The treaty I mentioned is the IV GC - which concerns the rights of civilians under occupation by a foreign power. 

Couldn't be more fitting than this.


Of course there is al qeada in Iraq.
Also "foreigners" from Iran, Syria and other countries! Quite a few from Suadi-Arabia on a "ji-had holiday."
Bush said two years ago that we need to secure Iraq's borders! lol
Meanwhile in his ***OWN*** country.....


No Popeye,there were no al-queda in Saddam Hussein`s Iraq.None.They were on Saddam`s death/enemy list, also.

The few who did exist there, were in Kurdistan,the part of Iraq we (the US) controlled.

None of the guys who attacked us on 9/11 were  there and there was no connection(other than death squads killing them) with them and terrorists in Iraq.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The big problem here is making any/all Iraqis out to be terrorist,conflating citizens with al-queda like they`re all the same thing.It`s a form of bigotry.

It`s the same form of blind bigotry that lead us to believe Saddam Hussein was with al-queda,when the opposite was true.

He was just another brown person/terrorist/dictator/and so on etc.,so it was easy to imagine him helping the terrorist who attacked us on 9/11,ie. bin-laden`s group.

al-queda in Iraq are people who came after Saddam and as a result of our presence there,and wouldn`t be there if not for our presents.

We shouldn`t say,now that we`ve created them in Iraq,we now can`t leave.That`s ridiculous.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Can`t we be a bit more sophisticated and make distinctions between the folks who attacked us on 9/11 and all the other Arabs/brown people/middle easterners?

That kind of analysis and curiosity could have saved us from this disaster.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


We should just get out.There`s no WMD,no connection with bin-laden,Saddam`s head`s on Bush`s wall,mission accomplished.

We should GTF out`a there.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/20/2008 9:01:53 AM >

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:50:43 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Depends which treaty you're talking about. The fourth Geneva Convention states:

quote:



Part I. General Provisions
This sets out the overall parameters for GCIV:
  • Article 2 states that signatories are bound by the convention both in war, armed conflicts where war has not been declared and in an occupation of another country's territory.







Kittin, and there-in lies the problem, al qeada and the other terrorists are not "signatories" to it.
It's not a one way street.
You have to be a "signatory" to it to "benefit" from it.
That's the incentive.
The "carrot and the stick."


And were, please point it out to me, does it state that? It says that you have to abide by the rules if you are a signatory. It does not state anywhere, that the other party has to be a signtory too, for the convention to apply.
Signatorys are bound, not signatories are bound if.


And if it does in fact say that then don't you think that we should withdraw with all haste from the Geneva Conventions?
Why would we possably want to remain in the G.C's if it said that?
There'd be absolutely no benefit to us!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:54:10 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Can we get a side order of,..."Cum-Bay-Yah" with that?



No, you're on a diet, remember?

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:57:10 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And if it does in fact say that then don't you think that we should withdraw with all haste from the Geneva Conventions?
Why would we possably want to remain in the G.C's if it said that?
There'd be absolutely no benefit to us!


And as the world revolves around you...

I do see merrit in civilisation and setting limits to attrocities in war and armed conflict. If you can not, I pitty you for the dark world you must be living in.

But I am still waiting for you to show me proof for your statements.

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:58:22 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Here's a question; notwithstanding that its a PR nightmare - which international agreement forbids a soldier from shooting a Koran?

This is an important consideration, in that if we wish to see such international agreements applied unstintingly then it becomes difficult to add anything more to them than is already present, without also being permitted to waive or vary what is present.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 8:59:17 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And if it does in fact say that then don't you think that we should withdraw with all haste from the Geneva Conventions?
Why would we possably want to remain in the G.C's if it said that?
There'd be absolutely no benefit to us!


And as the world revolves around you...

I do see merrit in civilisation and setting limits to attrocities in war and armed conflict. If you can not, I pitty you for the dark world you must be living in.

But I am still waiting for you to show me proof for your statements.


You didn't answer my question.

"Michael row......the boat ashore,.....Hallelujah!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 9:28:56 AM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Good points, Lady Ellen.

Whatever may or may not be the "PC" view about this, point out any violation of a law or treaty the US has signed and ratified.

Thae INCLUDES the Geneva Conventions, which we had not signed or ratified in the recent past.

In Vietnam US troops each signed a card agreeing to abide by the Geneva Convention in hopes that if we got captured the enemy would follow the rules even though the US had not agreed to do so.

I still have my Geneva Convention card.

I know that on some US military operations going back at least to the mid 1950's a Geneva Convention card was the only ID carried.

_____________________________

As always, your mileage may vary!

vield

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 9:46:27 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vield

Good points, Lady Ellen.

Whatever may or may not be the "PC" view about this, point out any violation of a law or treaty the US has signed and ratified.

Thae INCLUDES the Geneva Conventions, which we had not signed or ratified in the recent past.

In Vietnam US troops each signed a card agreeing to abide by the Geneva Convention in hopes that if we got captured the enemy would follow the rules even though the US had not agreed to do so.

I still have my Geneva Convention card.

I know that on some US military operations going back at least to the mid 1950's a Geneva Convention card was the only ID carried.


1st ,thanks for your military service.

Can I ask you,as a vet;Do you agree with the army that the Geneva Conventions should be followed and respected?

Or do you agree with the administration on not following or adhering to the GCs?

(in reply to vield)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 9:50:05 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		As usual a certain feline is scraping in the wrong litterbox. Insurgents, al queda, etc are NOT "civilians" under the Geneva ACCORDS. (Please get the terminology right - the convention was the MEETING, the policies agreed to were the ACCORDS.) As a matter of law, as BountyHunter as a fellow O-4 can attest, a person taking up arms in conflict without being a member of a standing recognized military is SCREWED.

Hence the reason we don't ditch our uniforms and grab the first thing we see on a clotheline somewhere. OK, if I was shot down the LOGICAL thing to do would be to break into the first house I saw, grab me a burkah, and wander the streets with my eyes averted mumbling Durka Durka Mohammed Jihaad!!! Durka Durka Bak Allah.... Instead, I was supposed to evade and escape wearing that US Navy flightsuit, complete with the (subdued) American Flag patch... There is a reason for this!

ONCE OUT OF UNIFORM, AS A COMBATANT, I COULD BE SHOT ON SIGHT FOR ESPIONAGE AND/OR INSURGENCY. As a combatant, I was NOT entitled to any of the rights under the Geneva Accords, if I was not IN THE SERVICE and WEARING THE UNIFORM OF THAT SERVICE WHEN CAPTURED. A civilian is a NONCOMBATANT, and what we are addressing here are UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANTS who are not protected.  

Needless to say little miss know it all will argue this - but dont argue it with me. Take your little ass over to the SERE school in Coronado, CA and tell the instructors how they are wrong and you know better etc and wave a copy of the "Geneva Convention" at them and tell them all about how bad the US Military is and how terrorists have rights blah, blah, blah....

(in reply to vield)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 10:01:12 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Still pining for your Rambo days?

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 10:02:03 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Here's a question; notwithstanding that its a PR nightmare - which international agreement forbids a soldier from shooting a Koran?

E


Ellen,

Intelligent and well thought our question. The Geneva Accords has NO bearing on shooting a freaking book! To my knowledge there is no other rule / law / regulation etc prohibiting it. The ONLY thing I can think to charge this guy under is 134 of the UCMJ which is essentially "anything that brings discredit on the military". As I have said twice before "abuse of the Koran is hardly new... Im my squadron we wiped out asses with it, we drew pictures on the squadron ready room whiteboard of Mohammed with a JDAM sticking out of his ass, we actually had a cartoon of the prophet mohammed sucking a camels dick while we had him bracketed, the enlisted men chalked messages on the bombs that would make allah himself shit twice and die.... Thats not offensive, thats FUN. Its gallows humor to add a little levity to the job. You should see some of the patches on my jacket - from pre-clinton days when squadrons didnt have to be PC.   We had one that showed Mohammed with an A-6 refueliing probe in his ass with the caption "Now Is The Time To Come To Jesus".....

Edited to add:

Thanks to clinton the "offensive or dirty" squadron names had to be changed... Airplanes were retired or renamed with nicer user friendly non violent names, the recruits got please dont yell at me Im  a sensitive little pussy "stress cards" to give to the DI's, and even the "offensive cadences" became taboo... He turned the military into the fucking girlscouts. 

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/20/2008 10:08:07 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/20/2008 10:10:33 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Right, so therefore we should lock them up in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, deny them due process of law, and torture them until the fun runs out.

Makes sense to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

As usual a certain feline is scraping in the wrong litterbox. Insurgents, al queda, etc are NOT "civilians" under the Geneva ACCORDS. (Please get the terminology right - the convention was the MEETING, the policies agreed to were the ACCORDS.) As a matter of law, as BountyHunter as a fellow O-4 can attest, a person taking up arms in conflict without being a member of a standing recognized military is SCREWED.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 180
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