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Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 7:46:23 AM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline

I know, I can't change someone and will never set out to try to do that. I do read here that people do "mold and train" which is not my thing, but might be considered completely changing someone.

My question is on a different level -- how far is too far, how much is too much to ask?

For example, there are people here on CM that might interest me on some level, but I'd love them to cut their hair, maybe shave -- too much to ask? (I have never asked and won't ever I don't think).

Lose a few pounds? I know that's very controversial, me, I'd really get my knickers in a twist if someone asked me to do that, although I personally do feel I could stand to lose a few. No one is allowed to tell ME that though.. *wink*

Can you ask someone to spruce up? Brighten up or change the wardrobe a bit?

I know that in the midst of a meaningful relationship, these things are a bit easier to do --- carefully and slowly.. VERY carefully, there is an art to it.. and I've done it some with my boi ---

But what about seeing a photo on CM, thinking "I might enjoy that person BUT ... whatever (hair, clothing, surroundings... ) things that are minor but still stop you... and perhaps in the end I'm being shallow...

by the way, the thing that I don't care for most of the time is really long unkempt hair or anything/anyone unkempt... (long story I won't go into here) .. and sometimes, its the only thing that makes me NOT interested here on CM ... should I get over it? Maybe..

thoughts on changes? asking someone to change? making someone change?

< Message edited by Madame4a -- 5/20/2008 7:51:04 AM >

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

Post #: 1

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 7:54:19 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I'm not much help on this one. I think training someone is much different than changing them. Requiring them to be familiar with protocol for events or some such thing doesn't change who they are. Those are just behaviors.

Oh, but if that long hair thing is an issue for you, feel free to direct those long haired boys My way.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 2

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 7:57:38 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I have some stock phrases that I toss around, and one of them is "You can change your behaviour but you can't change your Self." I would have no trouble getting someone to spruce up, detail the facial hair, get a better haircut (though maybe not cut it OFF, even I would never want to cut fabulous Darch's hair!) and generally suit up as someone I would want to take out in public.

Can you make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? <G> (yes, it's Aphorism Day! ) I really don't like to play Pygmalion. If a person is content being scruffy~~ or what you and I would consider scruffy~~wellllll.........maybe that's a true reflection of who they are. Is it worth it? I think it CAN be, if the other party is willing and interested. If he or she has really never had any experience of another kind of style, or lifestyle, and wants to try something new, then progress can be made.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 3

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 7:59:39 AM

TwoNYCDommes

Posts: 237
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline

It all depends on how important the specific things you want to change are to the people involved.

The types of changes you mention seem fairly superficial to me--i.e. things many people would not mind terribly changing for someone important to them. We have certainly had submissives make changes involving hairstyles, clothing (at least the clothing they wear in our presence), and diet, in addition to other behavior modifications. Some submissives come to us wanting help in making changes.

On the other hand, there could be someone who is very attached to his long hair, for example, and changing it for you would be a major sacrifice. We've had issues with submissives who smoke, for example, as my darling is asthmatic/allergic to smoke, but it can be a difficult thing for someone to give up.

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 4

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 8:02:12 AM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

Yes you can ask them to change, now unless they really want to do it its doubtful that they will. I've read many "ads" where Dominants want to choose the clothing, the food etc etc that their subs/slaves are used to in favor of what the Dominant is used too. If your both happy with that arrangement great if not then it most likely will not work out.

I have asked my sub to shave, I don't like body hair and he does it for me. I have asked him to keep his appearance much neater than he did before me because I can't stand someone on my arm that looks like a hairy slob. I've told him no loud colognes they give me migraines and I limit his food intake because the man just doesn't know when to stop eating. I have him take vitamins and get regular checkups.

I see the things I have him doing things as healthy and good for him, with the added plus that they please me. So If its a safe thing and something that your both comfortable with, why not?

~Lashra

< Message edited by Lashra -- 5/20/2008 8:03:25 AM >

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 5

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 8:16:13 AM

MsIncontrol

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline

Dear Madame,

It is my opinion that you can ASK anyone to do anything, but it is up to them to decide if they want to do it...even in a D/s relationship. I once heard that people will only change when the pain of change is less than the pain of staying the same. So, if it is someone who has been longing for a dominant for a very long time and all he has to do to get you, a very fabulous one (if I may say so myself), is cut his hair...while by goodness why not?

My honey was scruffy, 20 lbs heavier and wore skin tight black jeans (a al rockers of 1984) ...now he is MY perfect specimen.

Even though I am heavy and could lose quite a bit of weight myself. He was very unhappy with the excess weight he was carrying. I never said "hey fatso, drop the extra 20 lbs. ) But instead I encouraged him to do things that made him happy like riding his bike, running and generally...being more active. I love to cook so I started to serve him healthy food. Now he is proud of his body and not ashamed to be naked or nearly naked at the dungeon.

I asked him to get a short haircut and shave cleanly just so I could see what he really looked like. When he did I kept telling him how sexy he was, how much younger he looked etc. Without me ever having to say..I totally hate your scruff he now he also likes himself like this..everyone wants to feel attractive and sexy to their partner. I never said...your hair is a turn off and totally out of style.

As for the clean house...when we moved in together it was a serious consideration. I wasn't only get my submissive who was messy...I was also moving in with his teen UM who was a total slob. We had a contract to keep things very clean and orderly in the main areas of the house. I can't live in clutter, it would be detrimental to my happiness. He was always clean...but messy with piles... we both love a clean house..he just didn't know how to keep it organized and I've really shown him how to throw things away, keep them in the right place and keep up the maintenance daily. (Like not letting mail pile up). Now our home is tranquil and a lovely place to relax.

From the outside, people may say...wow..she really changed him. But in reality I only encouraged him to be the best he could be and living a life he loves. He made and embraced the changes in himself.

< Message edited by MsIncontrol -- 5/20/2008 8:17:55 AM >

_____________________________

Happiness is only real when shared. - Christopher McCandless

(in reply to TwoNYCDommes)

Post #: 6

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 8:18:44 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Madame4a

I know, I can't change someone and will never set out to try to do that. I do read here that people do "mold and train" which is not my thing, but might be considered completely changing someone.

My question is on a different level -- how far is too far, how much is too much to ask?

For example, there are people here on CM that might interest me on some level, but I'd love them to cut their hair, maybe shave -- too much to ask? (I have never asked and won't ever I don't think).

Lose a few pounds? I know that's very controversial, me, I'd really get my knickers in a twist if someone asked me to do that, although I personally do feel I could stand to lose a few. No one is allowed to tell ME that though.. *wink*

Can you ask someone to spruce up? Brighten up or change the wardrobe a bit?

I know that in the midst of a meaningful relationship, these things are a bit easier to do --- carefully and slowly.. VERY carefully, there is an art to it.. and I've done it some with my boi ---

But what about seeing a photo on CM, thinking "I might enjoy that person BUT ... whatever (hair, clothing, surroundings... ) things that are minor but still stop you... and perhaps in the end I'm being shallow...

by the way, the thing that I don't care for most of the time is really long unkempt hair or anything/anyone unkempt... (long story I won't go into here) .. and sometimes, its the only thing that makes me NOT interested here on CM ... should I get over it? Maybe..

thoughts on changes? asking someone to change? making someone change?

There is never a problem with asking someone to do X to become more attractive for you if you accept some responsibilities and some possibilities.

If you ask someone to lose weight for example, are you willing to change how you eat when you are with them, what you have in your house, or even work on your own weight?

If you ask someone to get a better wardrobe, are you wiling to go shopping with them, make concrete suggestions, and perhaps do the same for yourself?

Are you able to do deal with a "no, I won't do that" and either accept them as they are or move on?

I've not offered training to someone who refused to wear a button down shirt to our first trial scene after we'd gone through a lot of hurdles. Why? The wearing of the shirt was both a test of obedience and a test of how much he cared about pleasing me. I'm picky enough to say "not following my specifications = no more scenes and certainly not training. I had to make my request and I had to accept the possible consequences for it.

I think this can go from sub to dom as well, especially early on. I had a potential that liked nylons on women, I went and got some and wore them for him. He was very happy and frankly as long as I wasn't in heels it didn't bother me to wear them. If he had requested nylons and I requested, I'd say he was well within his rights to walk away from that trial scene and not looked back. I sent him the message that his needs and desires had value by wearing them.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 7

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 9:22:13 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

I guess that Im the only one on here that will outright tell someone they should change something about themselves. People beat around the bush about things afraid of hurting someones feelings. If a woman ask me to change I wil ask then if I do will they go to bed with me. They all say no. I tell them to go bother someone else. You ask people to be upfront with so return the favor.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 8

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 9:52:33 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

I guess that Im the only one on here that will outright tell someone they should change something about themselves. People beat around the bush about things afraid of hurting someones feelings. If a woman ask me to change I wil ask then if I do will they go to bed with me. They all say no. I tell them to go bother someone else. You ask people to be upfront with so return the favor.

Huh?

I certainly didn't see my reply as doing as you say.

You can ask someone to change all you want but you need to be willing to except any outcome -- such as hearing "no" or being willing to do something in return or helping them change.

How is that not being upfront?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 9

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 9:55:25 AM

MissEnchanted

Posts: 510
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm not much help on this one. I think training someone is much different than changing them. Requiring them to be familiar with protocol for events or some such thing doesn't change who they are. Those are just behaviors.

Oh, but if that long hair thing is an issue for you, feel free to direct those long haired boys My way.

ME too!

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 10

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 10:00:19 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

It may just be the picture. Ask them if they normally look as laid back as they do in the photo? It isn't uncommon for someone to grab the first pic at hand to put up. Because if he says that picture was taken after a day of roller coastering, and his usual look is neater, then you may be judging him unsuitable for no reason.

Of course you could also put into your profile that you don't like men with unkempt long hair, and then after chatting receive one with it neat and trimmed. If you still receive one with your pet peeve, I'd assume it isn't something he's willing to change.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to MissEnchanted)

Post #: 11

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 10:11:59 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

Tammyjo I was'nt replying to your answer. They need to take that in reply to thing off of here.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 12

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 10:17:56 AM

SleepyDom

Posts: 118
Status: offline

I have ZERO problem telling my sub to change hairstyle, wear different clothes, shave "down there" get a tan, lose weight, yada yada yada, and if you won't obey, then goodbye. I don't know why any Dom would feel bad about any of this, it's not like you're harming your sub. As for "I would only effect change to improve them" oh give me a break! I'm a Dom, I'm in it to control, she's in it to BE controlled, of course I'll effect change in whatever way I damn well please within the limit of not harming her. And if she doesn't like it? She can leave.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 13

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 10:49:41 AM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline

Hopefully.. I'll answer everything....if I missed something ... tell me..

thanks for the response...

I am no opposed to long hair -- I think its that most of the time I see it in profile pictures.. it looks scruffy (GREAT word LH) ... I don't care for scruffy or unkempt long hair.. and long hair tends to look that way quicker than short...

I don't think its so easy to say.. "do this, this or this or hit the road".. at least that isn't me... and while I know most saw this in terms of someone who is submissive to me, that's not really what I meant... but I guess I'd have no room to say a thing unless they were...

thanks Ms Incontrol..for the compliment *wink*. I did not know your history with yours... who is, by the way... as cute as they come.. so you did good...

and yes, I would be more than willing to assist and support changes.. I think it would be very bad form not to, particularly if I had requested the change.. I'm willing to shop.. and willing to take someone to see my hair guy.. *grin*

and yes.. DesFIP .. I realize it could just be that picture.. but as a friend of mine says... when you put one up for millions to see.. take some time with it... I assume others do.. most of the time.. and yes, my profile says I don't like 'unkempt' ... but you know how well profiles are read around here

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 14

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 10:50:17 AM

ThundersCry

Posts: 892
Status: offline

I probably could use a haircut...

But...

I would have to be taken down to get...it <eg>

A great question...

People have to have a desire to *change* first...or be very willing to follow directions blindly and trust the outcome of the one directing...them.

I see many profiles of people saying if they only had one in their lives they could change this or that....what a cop out....

As far as personal hygiene? Thats a no brainer!

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 15

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 10:57:10 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Tammyjo I was'nt replying to your answer. They need to take that in reply to thing off of here.

Yes, it can aid in some much miscommunication. Sorry.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 16

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 11:11:21 AM

Boondoggle

Posts: 123
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncontrol

Dear Madame,

It is my opinion that you can ASK anyone to do anything, but it is up to them to decide if they want to do it...even in a D/s relationship. I once heard that people will only change when the pain of change is less than the pain of staying the same. So, if it is someone who has been longing for a dominant for a very long time and all he has to do to get you, a very fabulous one (if I may say so myself), is cut his hair...while by goodness why not?

My honey was scruffy, 20 lbs heavier and wore skin tight black jeans (a al rockers of 1984) ...now he is MY perfect specimen.

Even though I am heavy and could lose quite a bit of weight myself. He was very unhappy with the excess weight he was carrying. I never said "hey fatso, drop the extra 20 lbs. ) But instead I encouraged him to do things that made him happy like riding his bike, running and generally...being more active. I love to cook so I started to serve him healthy food. Now he is proud of his body and not ashamed to be naked or nearly naked at the dungeon.

I asked him to get a short haircut and shave cleanly just so I could see what he really looked like. When he did I kept telling him how sexy he was, how much younger he looked etc. Without me ever having to say..I totally hate your scruff he now he also likes himself like this..everyone wants to feel attractive and sexy to their partner. I never said...your hair is a turn off and totally out of style.

As for the clean house...when we moved in together it was a serious consideration. I wasn't only get my submissive who was messy...I was also moving in with his teen UM who was a total slob. We had a contract to keep things very clean and orderly in the main areas of the house. I can't live in clutter, it would be detrimental to my happiness. He was always clean...but messy with piles... we both love a clean house..he just didn't know how to keep it organized and I've really shown him how to throw things away, keep them in the right place and keep up the maintenance daily. (Like not letting mail pile up). Now our home is tranquil and a lovely place to relax.

From the outside, people may say...wow..she really changed him. But in reality I only encouraged him to be the best he could be and living a life he loves. He made and embraced the changes in himself.

Brilliant post. I think the way you handled thing was seemingly perfect for the both of you.

_____________________________

You see I'm not the kind of fella'
who can get off on vanilla.
No I need a little color in my sex.
--The Wet Spots

(in reply to MsIncontrol)

Post #: 17

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 11:15:51 AM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThundersCry

I would have to be taken down to get...it <eg>

mmmm.. now that has some appeal... I have at least two sets of clippers now that I think of it..and a straight razor...

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

(in reply to ThundersCry)

Post #: 18

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 12:03:33 PM

MladyHathor

Posts: 510
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

Grooming is huge for Me--most men are awful dressers and there are just certain things I prefer to see--I do the same with hair, beard etc oh and shave those testicles---smooth for Me---chest hair is fine--so its not shallow--to Me, its more, " you want to be hotter to Me, here is what I want". Weight loss--well I guess I'm there---I had to go back to hwp---had a slave who lied about his weight to the tune of 100 lb lie---he was here 6 months, ate Me out of house and home, broke the mattress and ome spring in the couch--nope nope nope, My home is filled with antiques and glassware----no thud thud thudding for Me ever again. Nope

I don't see that as changing as much as improving one's appearance to be more pleasing to Me.

_____________________________

The Mistress Hathor, always and forever, much to the disdain and discomfort of others.

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 19

RE: Changing someone ... (read inside) - 5/20/2008 12:20:28 PM

SephandElena

Posts: 52
Joined: 4/7/2008
Status: offline

Elena speaking.
It depends on the willingness of the one to be changed. i believe i need to lose a few pounds, and if Mistress said to me, "Right, you. Diet. Now." i'd kneel down and kiss Her feet, and then proceed to watch my intake a bit more. However if Mistress said to me, "Lose it or lose -you-," i'd be significantly less willing to try for Her sake. Alternatively, my hair is my source of pride. If Mistress told me to cut it....i'd tell her to get lost.
So i think it comes down to -consent-.
Respectfully,
Laney~

(in reply to MladyHathor)

Post #: 20

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