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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 6:25:59 PM   
christine1


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Joined: 12/15/2007
From: i'm headed to HIM...
Status: offline 		in regards to you post FC....i once worked with a woman who thought that everyone should be killed at retirement so that "old people" wouldn't become a drain on society.  she is currently in nursing school...be very afraid. 

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 6:30:13 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		          But laws that make me behave as a statistic, rather than as the at risk individual looking at the variables, need to be questioned.  Seat belts save lives.  I always wear it in the Camry, hardly ever in the old truck I crashed in.  It might save your life in a rollover or head on, but I always felt safer in that rig without it.  Experience proved me right when I spread the forces of a 55 mph corner impact across my entire right side instead of being folded in half.  A spectacular bruise instead of internal and/or spinal injuries.

      Now maybe you can run the cost/benefit analysis and decide that the savings on injuries from mandating seatbelts will be far more than the cost of caring for those who would have been better off without them.  In fact, I'm absolutely convinced the numbers would come up that way.  You are much safer with one.  But I'm not a number, and neither was that truck. 

     When the collective starts dictating my morning commute decisions, without regard for individual judgement, the balance has tipped too far.  And whatever organization is focused on banning octopus twirling, needs to meet half as often.

    

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/24/2008 6:36:46 PM >

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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 6:32:12 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Actually, the reason why these rules are made is usually because they protect each of us from each other's actions. Take the safety belt: if you don't have it on and you get crashed against the dashboard, you don't have the opportunity to stay in your seat and perhaps, do something about the direction your car is going. Then imagine (god forbid) that you run over someone. Take cigarettes: it's your freedom to smoke, but it's other people's freedom not to breathe in your poisoned atmosphere. These rules at least send out the message that personal freedom depends on the respect of another person's space.

Like I said earlier, you are free to not respect the rules.


Yes, take a hammer, for instance.  I might be repairing my deck, it's hot, I'm sweaty and the hammer slips from my hand and injures a 5 year old riding by on her bicycle.  So it's clear that these are dangerous instruments that require an immediate ban.  Wait, maybe it's the deck that's the problem.  If I weren't repairing it then I would haven't had need of the hammer.  Let's ban both hammers and using them to repair decks.  Then I would have to use a nail gun.  I think we better ban decks too!  Either that or pass legislation to prohibit the building of decks within 1500 feet of anyone under the age of 18.  Wait though, she was on a BICYCLE!  Maybe that's the real problem.  We all know how dangerous they can be, so at least we can pass a helmet law for the kiddies.  That way we'll all sleep better at night.  This can be just be a small start though.  There's just no end to how safe we can make the world if we really try!     

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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 6:36:10 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Not my opinion that of my lecturer who is 65ish. There is a kind of logic to it; the idea that what a person is worth to society is how much they are going to be paid by that society. The value of a young person is so hard to determine in relation to that of an old person who has already demonstrated his earnings potential through where he has ended up in life. In this respect the court has to be favourable and say “Well he could potentially be earning this in the future.” Making the same decision about a 60 year old the court would say “Well he is going to earn his current salary for five more years less tax.” The figure of his worth is hence more easy to determine and no unrealistic arguments as to a potential spike in his earnings needs to be accommodated.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/24/2008 6:40:06 PM >

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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 6:56:37 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Yes, take a hammer, for instance.  I might be repairing my deck, it's hot, I'm sweaty and the hammer slips from my hand and injures a 5 year old riding by on her bicycle.  So it's clear that these are dangerous instruments that require an immediate ban.  Wait, maybe it's the deck that's the problem.  If I weren't repairing it then I would haven't had need of the hammer.  Let's ban both hammers and using them to repair decks.  Then I would have to use a nail gun.  I think we better ban decks too!  Either that or pass legislation to prohibit the building of decks within 1500 feet of anyone under the age of 18.  Wait though, she was on a BICYCLE!  Maybe that's the real problem.  We all know how dangerous they can be, so at least we can pass a helmet law for the kiddies.  That way we'll all sleep better at night.  This can be just be a small start though.  There's just no end to how safe we can make the world if we really try!     


They used to call this ALARP (As low as reasonably practicable)

We have to think about what is reasonable in your situation above many steps can be taken to reduce the risk of killing stray toddlers. Firstly you could cordon off the site you are working so that the five year old need not be so close to the activity taking place, secondly you can take a training course if you are that bad at handling a simple tool.

You say children should not be near construction activities as a joke, it's not a joke if you are doing decking keep children away from such activities one way or another it's your basic responsibility to look out for people around you as you work.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/theory/alarp3.htm


< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/24/2008 6:57:51 PM >

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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 6:57:56 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

People have to make informed choices but not everyone is informed and it is a tragedy when someone needlessly dies because they feel being told to wear a seatbelt is an infringement of their freedoms. Every death has a cost to society:
A police investigation costs society money.
A loss of workforce cost the economy.
People need counselling because you died in front of them or they feel they killed you.
They get depressed and can’t work.
Society has to pay for their counselling.


This is an old and tired argument.  I've been active in the past opposing helmet laws and I've seen this nonsense trotted out again and again. 

EVERYTHING you do from the time you wake up till you go to sleep can be transformed into a cost/benefit analysis to society.  Take a sick day today?  How much did that cost society?  Spend ten minutes extra on your lunch hour?  OOPs society pays again.  Went out on your friend's boat without a lifevest?  What would that have cost society if you fell off?  Got drunk and had unprotected sex last night with a stranger?  OOPs.  Let's prohibit sex without condoms.  We can form "condom brigades" to police our neighbors!  There's just no stopping the good works we can do for society if we put our minds to it. 

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 7:01:26 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Everything you do effects nobody I wish I was so ineffectual like you.

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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 7:14:56 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Not my opinion that of my lecturer who is 65ish. There is a kind of logic to it; the idea that what a person is worth to society is how much they are going to be paid by that society. The value of a young person is so hard to determine in relation to that of an old person who has already demonstrated his earnings potential through where he has ended up in life. In this respect the court has to be favourable and say “Well he could potentially be earning this in the future.” Making the same decision about a 60 year old the court would say “Well he is going to earn his current salary for five more years less tax.” The figure of his worth is hence more easy to determine and no unrealistic arguments as to a potential spike in his earnings needs to be accommodated.


WOW!  I think you just made my point, somewhat disturbingly.  I could have just as easily made my hypothetical about a 65 year old rather than a 5 year old.  Regardless, you've reduced it to their "earning potential", their "value to society", instead of seeing the person as an individual.   

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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 8:22:57 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Herein is where we find the crux of the problem. It is personal responsibility vs protection.

I am currently not allowed to drive, so to prove a point I am going to drink about a 12 pack or so, and go out with void insurance, and speed. I'll go see if my buddy has any more whiskey, I'll smoke a bit as well. I'll go as fast as I want and I will turn and change lanes whenever I feel like. Maybe I'll find another froggy asshole who wants to race.

And when I get home after this, having not gotten into an accident, run anyone over or even hit anything a little bit, you know what you have the lawful right to do to me ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Now if something happens, of course I have consequences, if I run into something I should have to pay for it. Perhaps some jail to prove to me that I am too stupid to be engaging in such activity. And if I hurt someone, lots more jail.

But as to the question in the OP, it is never going to end. Remember the other thread I mentioned Utah ? They have a "precursor" law. If you are in a place they deem the wrong place at the wrong time, if there are any alcoholic beverages in your car they can give you a DUI. You could come up convicted even if you take the test and blow a 000.000,

Think I'm kidding ? But see that's where we are headed. I'm sure this thing is so easily searched on Google I am not even going to bother, in fact DUI laws are precursor laws in nature, just as are seatbelt laws, helmet laws, all of it.

You support a seatbelt law because it may aid in keeping the driver in place during an event ? OK fine, but then you agree that we must make sure these people are healthy and only eat approved diets lest they suddenly have a stroke or heart attack, or even go into a diabetic coma while driving. Is a driver going into a coma really more desirable than a guy having three beers ?

Cradle to grave. We will handle your well being from the day you are born until the day you die. In the beginning we weill set the guidelines for your nutrition, and advise your Parents. We will also require them to get a blood test before they can marry. Then we will monitor you for signs that you are not properly adjusted to society, and if we find that so, we will "help" you. Then when you die we and our friends are going to help ourselves to what you worked for all you life and snatch it away from your heirs.

When you put it that way, it's been revolution time for a long time now. We don't have what it takes and/or there aren't enough people screwed into the ground by the system yet. The only thing I can say is if we can't do this legally, at least try to do it lawfully. We The People do have the right to alter or abolosh the government, it is written in the Constitution.

But how far will it go ? That was the original question I believe. Soilant green (sp) ? The Matrix ?

Actually, I HIGHLY recommend the movie Hardware. You just don't know until you've seen it. It paints a very bleak picture of the future, but also illustraytes how people will always manage to survive. Cuts both ways. And to use an English term ; it is spot on considering the research they are doing now. But that's not the point, in this one I think the art lies in how they portrayed the environment. There really isn't much of a plot. Buncha people got killed but so what. But get it while you still have VHS, I doubt it'll ever be on DVD.

Anyway, in the end the answer to the qurestion when will it end ? That is actually up to us.

T

PS I am not really going to go racing around after drinking, I was just making a point. And Hippie I wrote that but I do admit to hearing it, there is no way it is a copy though, my memory just isn't that good. (for stuff like that)

T

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 8:27:56 PM   
DementedGirl


Posts: 172
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline 		If it is a woman's right to choose, since it is her body, why can't I make other decisions for my body?

Like the right to wear a seatbelt. They can kill you as well as save you.

Why does someone else get to decide if I want to be stupid one day and not the next? Hmmm?




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DementedGirl

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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 8:50:57 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Again - seatbelts are not just for the safety of the people in a crashing vehicle (where they statistically will abso-fukin-lutely reduce deaths and injuries), they are ALSO to protect other drivers from becoming embroiled in your mistakes and misfortunes. Seatbelts keep you in the driver's seat where you need to be during an emergent situation.

Case in point from my school-bus driving days. A driver on a rough bit of road, not wearing his belt, hit a bump and was thrown from his seat into the step well, head first, and knocked unconscious. He shortly awoke, upside down, to a bus full of screaming children, hurtling down the road, with no driver. Fortunately he was able to regain control before a further collision occurred but it could as easily ended in tragedy rather than comedy.

So, SummerWind, before you go insulting me because of my nationality again, perhaps you would consider the wisdom of this little tale and take a moment to consider that you are not alone in your choices, especially on the road, and that we all owe each other a duty of care where our lives overlap. Wearing a seatbelt is one of those entirely reasonable obligations for using the public roadways.


Z.



"Seatbelts keep you in the driver's seat where you need to be during an emergent situation."

Yup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42e_0pzcLkw

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 8:52:53 PM   
DementedGirl


Posts: 172
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Again - seatbelts are not just for the safety of the people in a crashing vehicle (where they statistically will abso-fukin-lutely reduce deaths and injuries), they are ALSO to protect other drivers from becoming embroiled in your mistakes and misfortunes. Seatbelts keep you in the driver's seat where you need to be during an emergent situation.

Case in point from my school-bus driving days. A driver on a rough bit of road, not wearing his belt, hit a bump and was thrown from his seat into the step well, head first, and knocked unconscious. He shortly awoke, upside down, to a bus full of screaming children, hurtling down the road, with no driver. Fortunately he was able to regain control before a further collision occurred but it could as easily ended in tragedy rather than comedy.

So, SummerWind, before you go insulting me because of my nationality again, perhaps you would consider the wisdom of this little tale and take a moment to consider that you are not alone in your choices, especially on the road, and that we all owe each other a duty of care where our lives overlap. Wearing a seatbelt is one of those entirely reasonable obligations for using the public roadways.


Z.



"Seatbelts keep you in the driver's seat where you need to be during an emergent situation."

Yup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42e_0pzcLkw



What if it throws you from a the car and saves your life?


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Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller

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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 9:06:34 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterGangelS

Ok, so what WILL have to happen before people start actually protesting?

Laws are good if they seriously do contribute to others' wellbeing. If it's a personal choice, however, and affects no-one else, shouldn't you have the right to not wear a helmet? 

Where IS it going to end? When the Powers That Be tell us what to eat and when? How often per day we can use the toilet?  In what positions we can fuck other consenting adults?


The reasons states have helmet laws is because of the stupid slobs who wind up spilling there brains all over the road and don`t have the courtesy to die.

They end up costing gobs of money for their care and become a drag on the system.Their care is picked up by a state`s taxpayers,ie. you and me.

It`s simple math,not a desire to squash freedom.

If there was a way to make laws that say, if you ride w/out a helmet and end up in the hospital with major head injures and you run out of money and/or insurance,you get wheeled to the exit and pushed outside.Bye-bye.

Unless you can get your friends or ABATE to pay your medical bills,you go away and die.

Under those circumstances,I`d let people ride naked at 100 MPH, drunk and high.

Let freedom ring.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/24/2008 9:11:22 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 9:13:09 PM   
DementedGirl


Posts: 172
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline 		What if you signed something that stated that you were responsible for your own actions? OMG what a concept, you are responsible for your own actions after all.

The courts think that, but only under certain circumstances, and then only if the judge is responsible. Fuck his Errors and Omissions Insurance policy, becuz they stand together!


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Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 9:20:19 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DementedGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Again - seatbelts are not just for the safety of the people in a crashing vehicle (where they statistically will abso-fukin-lutely reduce deaths and injuries), they are ALSO to protect other drivers from becoming embroiled in your mistakes and misfortunes. Seatbelts keep you in the driver's seat where you need to be during an emergent situation.

Case in point from my school-bus driving days. A driver on a rough bit of road, not wearing his belt, hit a bump and was thrown from his seat into the step well, head first, and knocked unconscious. He shortly awoke, upside down, to a bus full of screaming children, hurtling down the road, with no driver. Fortunately he was able to regain control before a further collision occurred but it could as easily ended in tragedy rather than comedy.

So, SummerWind, before you go insulting me because of my nationality again, perhaps you would consider the wisdom of this little tale and take a moment to consider that you are not alone in your choices, especially on the road, and that we all owe each other a duty of care where our lives overlap. Wearing a seatbelt is one of those entirely reasonable obligations for using the public roadways.


Z.



"Seatbelts keep you in the driver's seat where you need to be during an emergent situation."

Yup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42e_0pzcLkw



What if it throws you from a the car and saves your life?



That`s a little like the "car flying off a cliff in flames" excuse for not wearing belts.

Yeah,that happens so often I`ll never wear a belt again.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 9:22:39 PM   
DementedGirl


Posts: 172
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline 		Well it happened to a friend of mine's mother. It was enough to open my eye's to the pros and cons. It is a 50/50 situation. I wonder what the stats are to saving life verse not.



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Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 9:35:19 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Actually I NEVER wear seatbelts in my cars, but I always wear them in an airplane. If you approach it from an engineering dynamics standpoint the traditional automobile lap belt with the diagonal is a REALLY REALLY REALLY shitty idea. If they had a 5 point harness system, like they do in airplanes (crew posititions - the pilots dont have the lousy lapbelt the passengers do) and race cars, I would wear it without exception but at my height - that diagonal belt is likely to do little but cause a severe neck injury, lacerate my liver, rupture my spleen and probably crack ribs on one side giving me a pneumothorax. Kind of interesting that the lap belt with diagonal system isnt good enough for aircraft or the rules of any racing organization - NASCAR, NHRA, etc.... Ill take my chances with the airbags - that diagonal was not made for someone over 6'.... It may save my life, but Id rather die in the accident than be a quadrapelegic.....

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/24/2008 9:36:38 PM >

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RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 9:39:41 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


"Seatbelts keep you in the driver's seat where you need to be during an emergent situation."

Yup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42e_0pzcLkw




      Something like that, yeah.  And of course, you'll be able to maintain perfect composure and control of the vehicle during the moment of chaos after the impact with these gadgets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBMqkVO3gG4



     

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 9:39:57 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		How about child labor laws and the 40 hr workweek?

Why should government impose itself on business on our behalf?

Who`s business is it of their`s, who works and who doesn`t work?

Big meanies...


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/24/2008 9:40:42 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: When will it end?...... - 5/24/2008 9:42:33 PM   
DementedGirl


Posts: 172
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline 		I agree. I am 5'11 and big chested, and most seatbelts are not designed to fit comfortably. I am constantly pulling on it, and trying to find a comfrot zone. A worthless effort. I think that their design at my height would only strangle me not save me, but who am I to break the law? Since my comfort and well being are against the law, there are no acceptions, right?


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Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller

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