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Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 7:54:15 PM   
SleepyDom


Posts: 118
Status: offline 		In another thread was this unanswered question "how can a Master want to train a sub to obey completely yet say they don't want a doormat?"  I suppose the answer depends on the definition of a doormat, but I understand the gist of the question and here are my thoughts.  I do want to train a sub to obey completely.  I want her to submit to my will so completely, to trust me in all things, that obedience is just second nature to her.  But from this it doesn't follow:

1) That she can't be herself; that her personality is somehow suppressed as in not allowed to engage in humor, light banter, romantic gestures, sayings, and actions, i.e. all the little quirky things I love about her.  Why would this follow unless I've ordered her to not be herself, to not be funny, to not let her personality shine?  And I would never want to suppress things about her that I love.  I might do so of things that I don't.  If she's often disrespectful or dishonest, for example, those things will be punished for and corrected.  Although there's a time for everything, in general complete obedience to me doesn't mean that there won't be times for humor or romantic moments.

2) That her intelligence is suppressed or that her opinions and preferences not allowed to be expressed.  I DESIRE intelligence because I want to give her responsibilities and not have to micromanage every little thing.  Also because her opinions and advise can be valuable, especially with regard to things she knows much more about.  I want to own her mind, not just her body, why should I let her mind go to waste?  And I want to know her preferences because she matters to me and I want her to be happy.  While they don't dictate my decisions, they do enter into the equation.  Even an M/s is still a relationship after all and it won't last if both parties are not happy.

or

3) That she can't discuss or question my orders.  Such things can be not only justified but actually a good thing.  I'm not perfect and sometimes I may forget a good reason not to order her to do x and therefore order her to do x.  But knowing me as well as I know her, she may realize this and remind me to make sure that's what I really want her to do, thereby saving me from a mistake.  Complete obedience does not imply blind obedience.  I want to know when I have misinformation or when I don't have the relevant information.  If she's in possession of such, I want her to let me know rather than simply following my orders.  But this is generally understood; I don't think anyone wants blind obedience.  Now if she's questioning me because she doesn't WANT to obey, that's a different matter.

So is a sub who is intelligent, allowed to use her intelligence and to express her opinions and preferences, a sub who can be funny, romantic, and allowed to be herself, a sub who is allowed, even encouraged, to discuss matters when necessary, is she a doormat?  If so, then yes I do want a doormat.  If not, I just answered how I want complete obedience without her being a doormat.

Well, that's my view.  Fire away!
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 7:58:43 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I think that most people who object to the proverbial "doormat" do it from either  feeling they couldn't get away with being slackers......or think that brats are somehow cute-and "strong",rather than just assholes looking for an excuse.

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 8:49:45 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		The people most against doormats tend to be the ones most worried they might be one and aren't happy with that.

And a lot of people never seem to consider the concept of training your slave to know when to disobey or when to question. 

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Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 8:54:18 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		I agree with you and I love my doormat so much I just went and took a picture of it for you!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All kidding aside, I think that the armed servicemen & women who are trained to follow orders would take offence to being called doormats.  I think their superiors would feel insulted as well.  I feel the same way about my obedient partners.  They are an integral part of my life and I respect them as much or more than any patriot respects our citizens in the service. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=Ode to My Doormat=-
You know, I am freaking tired of the prejudice against doormats.  I love my doormat and it performs a vital function in my house.  It is decorative and pretty to look at.  It says “welcome” to my guests and makes them feel I care about them by having one.  It shows respect for my house by letting you wipe your feet on it if they are dirty.  It even dries your feet when they are wet.  My house and my porch just wouldn’t be the same without a good doormat!

[edit: type-o, again.  I am just not a good typist]

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 5/25/2008 9:02:30 PM >

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 9:02:09 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I agree with you and I love my doormat so much I just went and took a picture of it for you!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All kidding aside, I think that the armed servicemen & women who are trained to follow orders would take offence to being called doormats.  I think their superiors would feel insulted as well.  I feel the same way about my obedient partners.  They are an integral part of my life and I respect them as much or more than any patriot respects our citizens in the service. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=Ode to My Doormat=-
You know, I a freaking tired of the prejudice against doormats.  I love my doormat and it performs a vital function in my house.  It is decorative and pretty to look at.  It says “welcome” to my guests and makes them feel I care about them by having one.  It shows respect for my house by letting you wipe your feet on it if they are dirty.  It even dries your feet when they are wet.  My house and my porch just wouldn’t be the same without a good doormat!
scribbles on x-mas gift list " for RS... new doormat"

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 9:02:52 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The people most against doormats tend to be the ones most worried they might be one and aren't happy with that.

And a lot of people never seem to consider the concept of training your slave to know when to disobey or when to question. 


What she said. 

I get tired of the disparaging remarks against doormats and tend to think it's either fear based or resentment based.  Having said that, my Master relies on me to use my brian and to still obey him.  There are times when he expects common sense to take over, and if it makes sense to disobey (ie; he tells me to wait in the car but the engine catches on fire while he's in the store, he's not going to want me to stay in the car). 

There are other times when he just wants to wipe his feet off on me, and then I'm literally his doormat.  He did say I tend to make a better foot stool than doormat, though, since he prefers to sit down and put his feet up on me.

I've jokingly asked him to tattoo a daisy on my ass and name me Welcome. 

I should be careful though, he might just do that!

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 5/25/2008 9:04:03 PM >

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 9:03:46 PM   
phoenixinchains


Posts: 2534
Joined: 4/5/2007
From: i live here
Status: offline 		Lol, i'm in agreement with RS, and i bet if Master were here, He would too.

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(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 9:08:02 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I agree with you and I love my doormat so much I just went and took a picture of it for you!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All kidding aside, I think that the armed servicemen & women who are trained to follow orders would take offence to being called doormats.  I think their superiors would feel insulted as well.  I feel the same way about my obedient partners.  They are an integral part of my life and I respect them as much or more than any patriot respects our citizens in the service. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=Ode to My Doormat=-
You know, I a freaking tired of the prejudice against doormats.  I love my doormat and it performs a vital function in my house.  It is decorative and pretty to look at.  It says “welcome” to my guests and makes them feel I care about them by having one.  It shows respect for my house by letting you wipe your feet on it if they are dirty.  It even dries your feet when they are wet.  My house and my porch just wouldn’t be the same without a good doormat!
scribbles on x-mas gift list " for RS... new doormat"


Is personal delivery an option on that gift?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[edit]
Didn’t mean to hijack such a noble thread flirting with tulip so I ad this to the concept of how seemingly demeaning associations can be a misconception.

I think a good submissive is best in leather, well broken in and should be nice and comfortable like a familiar ‘old shoe’.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 5/25/2008 9:22:58 PM >

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-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

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Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 9:13:30 PM   
lizcgirl


Posts: 287
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline 		I think a doormat is some one who can't or won't think for themselves, who refuses to have any type of a backbone, who blindly follows any one and every one who tries to lead them. You have to be able to think for yourself because life will always have something to throw at you and you can't always pause and ask your Dom/Master what you should do. Being your own person is essential and if you can't do that, then yes, be a doormat for every one to wipe their feet on. I can't think of any other use for them.

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 9:36:40 PM   
SleepyDom


Posts: 118
Status: offline 		What, no spirited disagreement?  Man, you guys are no fun.

(in reply to lizcgirl)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 9:50:26 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline 		You said this:
quote:

ORIGINAL: SleepyDom
I want her to submit to my will so completely, to trust me in all things, that obedience is just second nature to her. 


And then this:
quote:


3) That she can't discuss or question my orders. 


They don't seem consistent. Trust you in all things and obedience is second nature and yet she can question your orders?

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Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to SleepyDom)
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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 11:09:37 PM   
SleepyDom


Posts: 118
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: arayofsunshine55

They don't seem consistent. Trust you in all things and obedience is second nature and yet she can question your orders?


I didn't mean that she trusts me as if I'm perfect, but in my overall guidance and my intentions.  Of course I'm not perfect, of course I don't know all things, I don't want her to have any such delusions, in which case I want her to question me when I've forgotten something (or don't know) and she knows better.  Trusting someone doesn't mean you cease to be a thinking being altogether.  Ownedgirlie gave a good example about being told to wait in the car yet disobeying when it catches on fire.  Obviously I wouldn't have known something like that or intended for her to be burned alive, so even though she trusts me, she should question and even disobey when the situation warrants.  It's more about knowing the spirit and intent behind an order than the exact letter of the order, or more simply about communication.

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 11:48:22 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Geeeee...  I actually love and appreciate doormats.   Yes, did you people know that some people are actually tired of being called "Doormats".   I think in all honestly the word doormat is misused.   It's really not very specific and it's too damn generalized. 

I more less lean towards TPE, and consider D/s that leans more towards the opposite direction of TPE a bit more like BS instead of D/s.  But this is me personally.  I most certainly would not to be with somebody who is mindless.

OK, so sue me.  I Love intelligent Doormats.   They are kinda high tech and all.  All I have to do is stand on them and they can automatically figure out if I need my feet cleaned or not.   Also they let me know when they need to be serviced and cleaned off, and they let me know when their batteries are runnnig low and other neat things.  They also let me know when I need a new pair of shoes.   I tell you, it's the wave of the future man.

< Message edited by Owner4SexSlave -- 5/25/2008 11:50:37 PM >

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/25/2008 11:52:34 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Ooooh, hi tech doormat.  I like that! 

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Good is the enemy of great.

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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/26/2008 12:06:45 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		An obedient slave asks intelligent questions, and thus renders superior service.  A doormat asks no questions and thus renders inferior service.

I know which one I prefer.


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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/26/2008 12:43:52 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		When it comes to many things, there should be no questions asked.  This is in terms of a D/s relationship.   Then there is a time when a question should be asked.  Hence this is based on the intelligence factor.

Yes, I do expect a sort of Doormat in a D/s relationship, but perhaps not the kind of doormat that others think would be a doormat.

Just because other Domly Masters out there are complete assholes with anger management problems does mean I'm one of them, or that every Dom out there is a mean asshole as well.

The word Doormat is often used with a sort of strange assumption (unspoken) about the type of Dom or Master that so would desire one as a doormat.   All the focus then is placed in debate regarding why would become a doormat.

The Whole Doormat debate, actually I believe is more centered around Fear. 

Oh wait, let us not think about TPE because that would make one become a Doormat.   If one becomes a Doormat, they just might wind up being the victim of having their Anus opened up and filled with Hot Wax inside (another thread), or have a Freezy Death with having an Ice Hook implanted inside their ass (another thread)..  Or perhaps they might become the victim to having a Body part removed or some other twisted thing.

Basically, let's never fully trust a Dominant partner at all, because if we did, we'd become a Doormat.   Geeeessshhh...  Again, I feel this topic is more based on Fear compared to reality.

It's a sort of defense mechanism argument to avoid getting mixed up with a Criminal minded Sadist evil Dom.   You know the kind you really should not be trusting your life with.  

If you can trust somebody with your life, why not become a doormat?  Would that not mean you were fully doing D/s as far as you could take it?   What is wrong with TPE anyways?   Clearly, the Doormat concept and fears are more centered around DOMs instead of submissives.    It's just a misdirected a little.  

What I find lacking is Common Sense and intelligence, those things concern me compared to if one is Doormat or not.

< Message edited by Owner4SexSlave -- 5/26/2008 12:46:29 AM >

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/26/2008 12:54:10 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		There are some Doms who want the more literal doormat who dominate without consideration for the slaves/subs happiness, who never want their orders questioned, who expect the total power exchange right  from the get go ...and there are plenty of those types around as well as quite a few subs who believe slavery  is exactly that and want to give it a try thinking it will be fun..they either learn otherwise  or are subs that get hit on by enough of these types of Doms that they feel it is necessary to add to the doormat comment to their profiles to help keep those types from contacting them 

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/26/2008 12:54:12 AM   
IdiotMale


Posts: 132
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Being a doormat does not mean you are stupid or can't think for yourself. I see it as simply another term for an extremely obediant and submissive slave. Slave being the key word here,not submissive partner. I have been and am currently looking to be a womans personal doormat/slave. Not an argumentitive,debating,pain in the ass. As a womans slave it is my duty to be her doormat and not argue if she chooses to walk all over me both physically and mentally.

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/26/2008 1:21:23 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Perhaps, I am wrong about this.  But any smart experienced owner of a so called "doormat", is aware that the Doormat can be worn out.  That a "doormat" needs to be clean and well taken care of, for it to last any length of time.   A let's face it, who honestly enjoys having an Ugly worn out doormat at the foot of their door?

Yes, and I tend to think it makes a difference for anybody looking for a Doormat, what color is it?  How good does it look?  Does it look like it's a cheap ass doormat, or a high quality doormat.   Does it really look like it can withstand, having feet wiped upon it?   Can it handle a lot of mud.   Is it more to summer time or winter time use?  How well does it clean up?  How long will it last?   Is the Doormat, really beautiful?  Is it a Smart Ass doormat with some expression to it?  Perhaps it's plain and boring doormat, that does not catch the eye.   Just what the Hell are we talking about when Talking about Doormats anyways?

Is the Doormat concept, a form of mental objectification that we all have some strange fixation with?   I mean we are after all talking about human beings and not actually door mats here.     But since we are talking about comparisons.   Let's really get into the whole doormat concept.

Personally, I takes me time picking out and finding a doormat.   I've went so far to look at a lot of Wal-Mart.  Passed on everything I saw, went to K-Mart.  Again passed on everything.  Hit up the local "Big Lots", still no luck.  Found what I was looking for at Lowes.   Basically, it fit my needs.  Was something practical and beautiful at the same time.  Long lasting, could be cleaned up easy, and works for winter time use even.   Now, it's up to me, that I take good care of the doormat.  I really don't want to go through the pain in the ass of shopping around for a new one.  I appreciate the doormat I currently have.  Where did I honestly go wrong in all this?

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RE: Complete obedience = doormat? - 5/26/2008 2:08:59 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		One Smart Ass remark I wish to express...

I already own a Doormat...  I'm not shopping for a doormat, if I were I'd be at Lowes online or some place else.  Wait, not really, I'd want to be able to physically inspect the goods first and know what I paying good money for.

(in reply to SleepyDom)
Profile   Post #: 20
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