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Defineing "predator" to be banned in the scene - 5/27/2008 10:13:17 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

If we collectively had the stones to call these assholes on their bullshit and cut them OFF-there would be a great deal less of it going on. 


Setting aside the "one true way" objections and the "two sides to every story" truth, I have some questions about what standards groups should use to ban members.

Obviously someone who does any of the following
  • Shows up drunk/stoned (first offense turned away, second banned)
  • Any violence outside of a scene
  • Repeated conflicts with others
  • Storing body parts of ex lovers in refrigerators
  • Repeatedly violates rules with some violations being faster evictions than others

But what about the following
  • Asks the dominant repeatedly to play with doms partner and refused, then starts approaching submissive?  (no is supposed to mean no, some leeway but at some point this is harassment right?)
  • Touching.  This is difficult, slack must be given to newbies but at what point is the line drawn?  Clearly someone who does it often should be thrown out but where is the grey area?
  • Violates boundaries?  To me this is easy, if someone either gets violated frequently or violates frequently, they are not ready.  In fact the only person I have thrown out was a submissive who always seemed to get her limits violated.  If that happened today I would probably require her to negotiate prior to any play AND have a third party sit in on those negotiations.
  • Violates scene boundaries - this is tricky as some people SET poor scene boundaries, there is always the little clique that plays with each other and wanders in and out of their scene.  Newbies often mistake that for permission and enter the scene at which point the drama ensues as they become indignant.  That I can forgive, for ME, what drives me nuts are people who talk loudly near quiet scenes but that isn't a high crime.


These are the really hard ones
  • Personal relationships are filled with drama - I was guilty of this, I ripped out a few hearts, one went gay I think and another I know moved out of state.   At what point is someone to broken to allow in?  I certainly was in some ways but at the same time I have grown immensely due to being in the scene.
  • Goes after fresh meat-I tend to end up with partners who are new to the scene although my last had been in longer than I had.  Where is the line past which that behavior is predatory?

I am sure there are others and so I look forward to a heated discussion.  I would HOPE that we can limit the scope of this discussion to a POSITIVE intent, regardless of whether you agree or not.  This is about setting useful standards, not creating harems, happy hunting grounds, my way is the right way, etc. so please keep that in mind when posting.  May the drama begin! 
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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:25:07 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I believe trying to ban people/persons from the scene as a whole is a ridiculous notion.  Particularly based on the reasons you typed out because they are all purely subjective and open to blacklisting abuse.
Refusing people entry to individual private parties or clubs etc is something down to the DM or managers discretion.
 
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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:25:41 AM   
crouchingtigress


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From: Maui
Status: offline 		i am not a big fan of banning and shunning....my thoughts are that we all get the type of groups we are attracting.

say here for example....sure we get crazy makers that stir the pot.....but it is usually those folks taht dont get the drama food they are looking for and they fade away....or chill out.

i am always confused about this idea of preditory folks as well....its a term that does not sit well with me...i mean arent we all preditory to some degree?

why do we judge folks for going after new folks? after all if the newbee is drawn to that person, then they have karma to work out no?

you are in a relationship now micheal, i dont know if you are poly or mono, but i do know that you are not looking, but what is wrong with folks that are?

i think if the club is private or the party is private then of course that is a differnt story, but trying to stay possitive as you have asked for in the OP, i would like to say whay not just ignore the folks you dont like....and they will go away....

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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:32:27 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		I am specifically speaking of groups/playspaces/parties...

Darcy wrote:
quote:

  Refusing people entry to individual private parties or clubs etc is something down to the DM or managers discretion.


While discretion is important, so are standards, thus this discussion.

Tigress wrote:

quote:

why do we judge folks for going after new folks? after all if the newbee is drawn to that person, then they have karma to work out no?


Where is the line past which that behavior is predatory?

I thought I was clear but perhaps not.  By stating there was a line I meant that some of that is fine but clearly predators rarely prey on experienced people, no?   If someone always seems to snag newbies, fills their head with bullshit, fucks them up, and the pattern is repeated over and over, at what point does someone say something? 



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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:36:35 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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quote:

one went gay I think


is she cute and have you still got her phone #?


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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:38:07 AM   
crouchingtigress


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From: Maui
Status: offline 		i think you should say something when you feel moved to....i always like the idea of doing it privatly one on one....most folks are blissfully unaware of how thier behaviour is being seen as.

what do you mean "fucks them up"?

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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:39:09 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

quote:

one went gay I think


is she cute and have you still got her phone #?



Of course yes and of course no.   

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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:40:59 AM   
Emperor1956


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Status: offline 		FR:  Are we talking about public accomodations?   It seems to me that the same requirements to obtain admission to a bar should work for a public play space.  If the behavior is illegal, you deny entrance or throw the person out. 

"Standards" in my experience are used to deny entrance to persons of a certain color, or a certain gender, or a certain orientation, or -- in the case of a beloved Domina who used to screen admitees to her soirees, to deny access (in her words) "to anyone better looking than ME."

Michael, when you impose "standards", all you are doing is setting up a private club in the guise of safety.  If you want to host your own private soiree, and set your own criteria, do so.  To attempt to impose requirements on public activities in the scene is futile.

E.

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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:42:24 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		This is an incredibly tough one.  But, as a person who helped in the running of several private clubs and ran one of my own for five years, I will give you some of my Valued Experience. 

The problem with so many groups/clubs is that they need to pay for themselves.  When you have to make that nut at the end of the night, your standards can get a little blurred....  The other problem with clubs is that they are comprised of PEOPLE.  People talk.   The wrong talk gets the support for your venture to plummet and boom!  you're out some change.  There are bad folks in every community.  And I mean BAD here, boys and girls, I mean thieves, abusers, predators, not just the ones who can't handle a singletail.  Their reputations follow them.  Why are they not totally shunned?  I have been asking that since I came out in the scene, and no one has given me an answer yet as to why we do not police ourselves.  There are some that I would not allow to attend my events, and I did not.  Being in charge means not being afraid to make the unpopular decisions. 

So, we need to keep the most people happy to bring in the most revenue, not break any laws, and provide a decent atmosphere for the greatest number of people.  Sounds simple enough, right?  So, we understand that we are so screwed, right?   

Rules.  Make some up, post them, ENFORCE THEM.  This means that not only do you need monitors roving the floor at all times, you need GOOD ones who work as a team to make sure there is consistency.  What is "unsafe"?  What is "going to far"?   That is the easy half of the equation.  The other half--getting your guests to actually SPEAK UP WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG.  I have been a DM for something like ten years at events going from regional biggies to small clubs.  It never fails but I hear that Mr X did this or Ms Y did that, and OMG.  Wellllll why are you telling me AFTER the fact?  What can a person do the next day, when they were not witness to the event, or at best saw something that looked like a conversation?  What can I, as an event organizer or monitor do about suppressing gossip about the scene that was fully cleared in advance yet scared the snot out of the wannabes?   The really truly annoying shit, the scenes that get interrupted, the touchy-feely-icky, all these things are much easier to fix THEN, not the next day.  If the persons in charge don't know about it THEN, it becomes hearsay and gossip. If something makes you go EW, and you don't let someone know, how will you know that it is perfectly fine for those three ladies to do a cigarette scene with their guy?   Attendees need to take personal responsibility for themselves!!  But oh, goodness, if I complain about  Master Bigshot, then the word will spread and no one will play with me!  Right?  You can see the slippery slope.  I am a cranky old broad, and so are my friends, thank heavens, so if someone is inappropriate, we have NO problem reporting them to management, and having their asses REMOVED.   How many new submissive femmes are willing to step up that way?

What should the rules be?  Well, that will vary with the locale, if there is liquor, etc, practical stuff like sharps containers, the grunt details.  The more rules there are, the more rules there are to enforce, so   essentially, HANDS OFF WITHOUT PERMISSION, CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF, and NO MEANS NO are my big three.  A person that can't handle those basics needs to get some education or get out. 

End rant, part 1!  I'm sure I will be adding more, I have had a hellacious week and I have to scream real loud about something!

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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:45:24 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Where is the line past which that behavior is predatory?

I thought I was clear but perhaps not.  By stating there was a line I meant that some of that is fine but clearly predators rarely prey on experienced people, no?   If someone always seems to snag newbies, fills their head with bullshit, fucks them up, and the pattern is repeated over and over, at what point does someone say something? 


The problem is Michael, from my perspective, is interfering.  I do understand your concern, but people are responsible for themselves and when it comes to outting someone who you(generic) may assume/perceive/decide is a predator - what makes you (generic) the defining judge?  I'm not big on knights, shining or otherwise - I'm just big on being responsible for yourself and someone who is going to get caught up with a predator will do anyway, regardless of your advice.
Experience is irrelevant it is personal responsibility that rocks.
 
I attend groups/clubs etc that understand that have individual codes, rules etc.  None are the same.  None would even contain the same people.  'Scene' indicates a 'whole' to me (which is why I answered initally as I did) - that would mean all clubs/groups in close proximity (say - all London groups) collabourating and getting together to agree on defining the scene predators 'list' - that just isn't going to happen when you can't even get some individual munches to not form cliques.
I'm not sure if that made much sense.
 
I don't believe you can define something so subjective but you can teach and advise by example.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:45:56 AM   
SteelofUtah


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From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		See all these issues are easy for me.

I used to throw weekly parties in a Duplex One side Hard play the other side Social ZERO Physical kink allowed and it was monitored by people who LIVED in the house only. (Yes I know this was Ideal for me and won't work for everyone but follow along for a moment)

Now I know you wanted to draw away from the two sides to every story part but I managed to fix issues easily by removing all parties involved in any altercation period.

The rules were simple,

*If you cannot Play nice then you cannot play period
*If you have to be told something more than once then you are a danger to any scene and will be asked to join the other apartment for the evening.
*If you cannot be trusted to remain professional regardless of the company then you cannot be trusted period and will be asked to leave.
*If you do not understand why we do not allow Fluid Transfer beyond Kissing then you are far to dense to be a part of our activities.
*No means NO means NO means NO EVEN IN A SCENE if the words NO STOP or DON'T are used a DM will STOP the activity.
*If the Hosts ask you to leave there is no discussion PERIOD. Leave.
*If a DM asks you to leave the play side you can go to the Mingle side but you are no allowed back in the play side.
*Everyone in attendance should have the Host E-mail and Phone number if asked to Leave or Banned the only way to be invited back is to speak with the Host.

*The Golden Rule: This is MY home and MY rules are what is followed PERIOD, These rules are NON NEGOTIABLE. Disrespect Me or my Home and you will be asked to leave. Period.

With this list or rules yes I had to play Babysitter for people who should know better and Yes I did have to remove Horny people who had no business at a play party and yes once I even had to call the cops and have them remove someone for me and that caused some serious issues that nearly stopped all attendance and eventually though the parties still happened after the police incident I never had the attendance that I once had.

"Preadator" and all the other Lables like "Abusive" or "Creepy" are SUBJECTIVE so I always made it about me. The DM's were not all powerful and I would allow people the DM's threw out back in the following week, I ALWAYS maintained that if you were removed for any reason you were out for that week I called it a cool down time so no one got cocky and everyone could go back to enjoying themselves.

I tried to personally witness things as they were happening to maintain that what "I" thought was order was being maintained. However I am not the end all be all and I would often have people show up and ask how I could allow certain things to happen so no one is perfect.

I guess what I am saying is that some people have certain standards of what is okay and what is not to call someone a Preadator is in many cases a subjective term. I didn't read the Thread that this came from I came right here. So maybe this will sound Arrogant and Pompass but I maintain that at times I come across overbearing and since I am a Touchy Feeling kind of person (Yeah I'm a Hugger) I sometimes make people uncomfortable and it is unintentional but it happens and I am look at because of it. Does me Hugging people make me a Preadator? To me No, to Other people Maybe it does, I just know what my intentions are and they aren't Preadatory.

Been gone for a few did any of that make any sense?

Steel

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RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:50:40 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:


  • Any violence outside of a scene
  • Repeated conflicts with others



    • I'm painfully aware of a situation where repeated conflicts went on for a long time, resulting in several people leaving a group because they were 'causing problems' with a well liked couple.... until the day one half of the well liked couple went berserk and tried to maim another member.

    And I suspect that sort of thing is not without parallels elsewhere.  

    Groups in the lifestyle are going tobe exactly like groups outside the lifestyle, and are going to have their share of manipulative asses.  If people want to work through that reality, they can still enjoy themsleves.  If they want to complain about not reaching some ephemeral ideal, and think 'rules' will fix people, go for it.




    < Message edited by Alumbrado -- 5/27/2008 10:51:11 AM >

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    RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 10:55:58 AM   
    SimplyMichael


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    quote:

      The other half--getting your guests to actually SPEAK UP WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG. 


    This is SO true!  The example about the person asking the dom and then when he said no going to the submissive was recently relayed to me.  They of course hadn't bothered to inform the hosts and I told them they HAD to, otherwise the person couldn't be told to stop.

    If I was the host and someone came to me with this, I would counsel the person about why that behavior was wrong and do it in such a way as to remove blame.  In effect saying "someone said this about you and I am not judging you or assuming it is true BUT I want to explain the rules to you."  However, if I hear the same complain from multiple people at some point, I am going to have to assume it is true AND I am going to pay closer attention to the person.

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    RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 11:01:35 AM   
    LadyHibiscus


    Posts: 27124
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    From: Island Of Misfit Toys
    Status: offline     		What can we do, really, besides pay close attention to what is happening?  There isn't a damn thing we can do about what folks do outside the event we are responsible for.  Hell, they can even start their own events!   I made it clear when it came to my own events that everyone needed to be approved in advance~~that doesn't mean that I get to be the moral arbiter of the scene, then or now. 

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    RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 11:04:16 AM   
    SimplyMichael


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

    i think you should say something when you feel moved to....i always like the idea of doing it privatly one on one....most folks are blissfully unaware of how thier behaviour is being seen as.

    what do you mean "fucks them up"?


    Tigress, I am not going to do something about someone who tells fat chicks they are worthless because they are fat.  What I meant by "fucks them up" is someone who is really abusive, who convinces someone to do things that that causes permanent emotional or physical injury.   Like pornography, it is hard to define (but the discussion is useful) but easy to spot.

    Take someone who snags a newbie and brands her.  To ME doing that in a new relationship is fucked up and I frankly would have to think long and hard before I didn't either throw that person out or speak to anyone he might get involved with.

    I realize it isn't always easy to see who "fucks them up" because I was certainly one of those.  I tend to move fast and I tore the hearts out of a few women until someone took me aside and explained WHY I needed to go slower.  Frankly, I went to a party many years ago and BROUGHT drama with me that seriously screwed up what would have been a great event.  I was fearful that I might have been banned from that group, not sure what that would have done as far as my development.  It might have slowed it down or been a wake-up call, I don't really know.

    Where would YOU draw the line?

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    RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 11:08:13 AM   
    everhope


    Posts: 2179
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    Status: offline     		i was new to the scene once, but i was also in my late 40's. i had common sense to draw upon although, at times it seemed it left me in my wanton longing moments. i found the whole dungeon scene intoxicating. so much so that just the smell of a new leather flogger would evoke such wanting that i would lift my skirt up and bend over.
    . 
    i was prey and i was preyed upon.
     
    my first full on scene was mind blowing. how the fuck did i know i was emotionally going to go where i went...
    yea, i am the kind of submissive that gets so far gone in the intensity of the moment that all i can think of is "i would die for you".  pretty fucking scary thoughts, but this is me ...my emotions in submission.
    i don't think any of the Doms that preyed on me should be banned.....the fine line is within me. it is within each individual.
     
    personally, i have come across far more dangerous predators online than out and about in the scene. in the public scene, there are many eyes watching behaviors. the dungeon of my choice here in LA there is a strong male Dom presence that keeps an eye on the new girls for more than their pleasures.

    may we all find our bliss 
     

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    RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 11:10:13 AM   
    SimplyMichael


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

    What can we do, really, besides pay close attention to what is happening?  There isn't a damn thing we can do about what folks do outside the event we are responsible for.  Hell, they can even start their own events!   I made it clear when it came to my own events that everyone needed to be approved in advance~~that doesn't mean that I get to be the moral arbiter of the scene, then or now. 


    If we can't do anything, why pay close attention at all?  If you meeting people in advance to see if they can be "approved in advance", what standards are you using to approve them in advance over?  There is a difference between being a busybody/control freak "moral arbiter" and someone exercising reasonable judgement.

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    RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 11:23:30 AM   
    BRNaughtyAngel


    Posts: 1821
    Status: offline     		I think I understand where you're coming from Michael, although I don't know what the answer might be.  Our club is lead by a wonderful submissive lady who is the one who decides who can and cannot come to the club.  New people are required to attend at least two munches and an orientation before being considered to come to the playspace.  That's so that our leader and others can get to know the person somewhat before inviting them to the dungeon. 

    One of the biggest concerns is maturity levels and their readiness to experience the "scene" in person...... and whether or not they can keep their mouths shut about who they see, what they see and what they hear.

    When it comes to banning people, my understanding is that it has been done a few times to both males and females for a variety of reasons and to my knowledge none of it was to do with "predatory" behaviors, but some other form of threat to the club and/or it's members.

    I think the jackass and fruit loop types end up being outed by word of mouth.  But hey, one persons nutball or predator is another persons dream date. lol!

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    RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 11:27:14 AM   
    DesFIP


    Posts: 25191
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    From: Apple County NY
    Status: offline     		Legally touching without permission can be seen as assault. If it's wrong to grab some cute whatever at a bar when he/she turns you down for a drink, it's wrong to do it in any other venue. If it's wrong to repeatedly ring someone's door, it's still harassment. If you would lose a job for it, then it's still sexual harassment.

    I'm a great proponent of giving people a copy of the rules and demanding they read and sign it. We do that in youth basketball, requiring both parents and children read and sign. If you act like an ass and the ref bans you, tough! You knew the rules.

    I see no reason why the same shouldn't be true in other places. Just because the DM doesn't wear a striped shirt doesn't mean you won't get tossed out. Wondering if DMs shouldn't get ref shirts and whistles.

    If it's wrong in other places to do something without asking permission, it's still wrong when you're wearing leather, or latex, or whatever.

    As far as your interpersonal relationships, that's why there is informed consent and not dealing with people under 18/21 depending. Just because they've never been flogged before shouldn't mean they've never dated nor had a relationship. If they are old enough to vote, go to war, then they're old enough to get into a bad relationship. They chose to say yes when you asked them out, thus it's their fault for not having better screening skills. And their responsibility to fix those skills.

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    RE: Defineing "predator" to be banned in the ... - 5/27/2008 11:31:06 AM   
    CreativeDominant


    Posts: 11032
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    Status: offline     		When I belonged to U. G. in Colorado, there were rules.  These rules were the types of rules you would expect to find in a private group of BDSM members:

    1.  No alcohol or drugs.  You couldn't bring them there nor were they sold there.  You could not get in if you were drunk or stoned.

    2.  No touching without permission or prior approval.  If I ran into a submissive that I knew and felt comfortable with, I could touch her in any way that she had approved of (non-sexually) prior to this evening.  Sexual touching...caressing someone's ass or breasts or genitals..., even with those known to you and with those you had been involved with in a sexual manner before was not allowed unless permission was given.  This applied to either side of the whip.

    3.  No interfering in a scene unless you were a D.M..  The rules for their interference were also made clear:

        a.  No exchange of body fluids.

        b.  No cock-in-pussy/ass/mouth type of interaction.  This included fake cocks.  Finger-fucking, okayed between the parties involved, was allowed.

        c.  Stop meant stop.  Whether in a scene or not, if someone told another to stop and the D. M. heard this, then they were responsible for making sure that it did.  If a D. M. was told by Susie submissive that a dominant would not stop bugging the submissive, then the D. M. went to inquire.  If it became a matter of he said, she said, the two were advised to stay away from each other and NOT discuss it with others.  The D. M. had the discretion to ask both parties to leave if either party seemed inclined to "spread the word" rather than let the matter drop.

        d.  No blood-letting in a scene.  No water sports or scat play allowed.

    4.  Finally, common courtesy was expected, though not enforced.  If someone approached about doing a scene and you did not wish to participate, you were expected to be courteous in expressing your desire not to play.  Comments like "You want me to play with a submissive who looks like a whale?" or "You don't look like you could dom your way out of a paper bag" were not appreciated and were the type of statement that would come back to work against you.

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