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is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 12:24:22 AM   
mons


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i know this young name since he was about 7 years old . i find out that he is a special needs child at that time . but for reason i will never understand he parents were so shamed of him they did not place him in the class he would need. one on one help teaching he right from wrong.so the years passed and he became just so bad and was in trouble for so long, i adore him he was always kind and sweet to me but he had a side to him i did not know. he was sent away so he would not get into trouble. but each time he was in the young people jail, and he thought he was funny he had stab someone and when the police came he was laughing and joking like nothing . i was so shock . so now he is an adult and last saturday and i was sleeping and the next thimg i heard so many polie cars i never heard that many ever. well he hit a police offieice in the head with a bottle. i was in shock he mother tried to stop the police and she was told to move back but she did not and she was knock down. so after it was over they went around to the people here and ask everyone to sign a paper saying what they saw . now i know then for so, long my twin put her name on it and they she said " wait i dd not see a thing"
well they threated me and i had to call the poilce . it was so bad scary they are just not good people the daguhter i dwonstairs women lost her keys ot her lexus . do you know this girl and her friend kept the keys or about a month and they took the car she was 15 . i pray for them i wish no bad luck on anyone but they are not right in the genes and no this is not the specil needs this is crimial act, they terroize the person in 6 i do not drive so my landowner ask me if they could sue my space i said yes do you know they mark the care of the man who wanted to use it they made it so they could not get in.they have ran out two family. but they pick the wrong people i am not fighten of them i will cal the police in a mintue , i feel sad for him if the father and mom had place him in a class i work more then 20 years and i seen the kids who have problem turn and learn .i made then place the younr child in special needs class and he is doing so much better . for being speial needs he is the only child who know the dimcision of my doll house he brought me  chair and it was the right size . i hope the policemen is ok i want to call and ask that is just so crazy . i write becase it is a way to let go of the stress and the anger they have for me and my twin for not writing a lie and i will not lie for anyone

thanks so for listening let me know what you think

mons
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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 12:34:49 AM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		I think I'm confused.....

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 1:27:55 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Mons, I think you already know the answer to this and you'll find you've already stated it below:
quote:

ORIGINAL: mons
i find out that he is a special needs child at that time . but for reason i will never understand he parents were so shamed of him they did not place him in the class he would need. one on one help teaching he right from wrong.so the years passed and he became just so bad and was in trouble for so long


Also, read some child psychology books (not the fictional kind) by Jonathan Kellerman, he has a sound background as a child psychologist, but has focused on psychopathology and is currently a clinical professor at the Keck. I recommend the following book for you:

Savage Spawn: Reflections on Violent Children (1999)



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The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 1:28:52 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, some people are born criminals. Of course there is some leeway in their future life, ranging from very bad to not so bad, depending on how they are raised and their life experiences. In this case this young man appears to have had the misfortune to be born in a family that has issues themselves.
 
Yes, do call the police and ask about the health of the policeman. They will appreciate it.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 2:47:50 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Crime is a human construct so no, its not possible to be a criminal.

However, it does appear to be possible to be born with what we label extreme psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies (we all have both) but even these are challenged and some would argue such tendencies are socialized into us.

I guess we don't yet fully know how clean a sheet we are born with and how much we inherit but that does not effect the answer to your question, none of us are born criminal.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 3:36:37 AM   
DomAviator


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Status: offline 		I personally dont believe in the idea of a "born criminal"... Actually, thats a pretty dangerous notion that led to the eugenics programs of the 40's and 50's etc... I think criminal behavior is learned, not born.  I feel environmental factors and upbringing pose a much greater role than being "bad stock"... Now with his being special needs there may be a whole other area at play in that if he has no understanding of right and wrong, and hence cannot comprehend the criminality of his conduct he is not a "criminal" even if he kills his mother and eats her... Criminality requires a guilty mind... If hes special needs he may lack capacity and is just simply insane.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 3:42:43 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Yes, some people are born criminals.
 


I'd think of the implications of this statement.

In the event people are born criminals, then do they have freedom of choice over their actions? Assuming they don't have freedom of choice, then are they morally responsible for their actions? And, where you believe this to not be the case, is society morally obligated to operate under the rule of law?

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 4:07:45 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I personally dont believe in the idea of a "born criminal"...
Psychopaths are born without a conscience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
Actually, thats a pretty dangerous notion that led to the eugenics programs of the 40's and 50's etc...

That is a different subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I think criminal behavior is learned, not born.

Nature or nurture? The perennial question of the psychologist. Both are true. People are born with a certain potential inclination - nature - and nurture will develop that to some degree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I feel environmental factors and upbringing pose a much greater role than being "bad stock"...

There is some truth in that. Lead for example increases criminal behaviour, presumably because it reduces the intellectual abilities of exposed people. So car exhaust (as petrol has lead added to it), especially in big cities and near large roads, and paints and lead water pipes will increase the crime rates. The implication is obvious: reduce traffic and in forty years the crime rate will be reduced.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
Now with his being special needs there may be a whole other area at play in that if he has no understanding of right and wrong, and hence cannot comprehend the criminality of his conduct he is not a "criminal" even if he kills his mother and eats her... Criminality requires a guilty mind...

No. Crime is an act. It is guilt that requires a conscience.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
If hes special needs he may lack capacity and is just simply insane.

And criminal. The criminally insane.

< Message edited by Rule -- 5/31/2008 4:10:47 AM >

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 4:16:05 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

So car exhaust (as petrol has lead added to it),
 

Not in the United States it doesn't.  Lead additives in gasoline were outlawed in 1986 here. 

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 4:19:35 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
In the event people are born criminals, then do they have freedom of choice over their actions?
Some do, some do not.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Assuming they don't have freedom of choice, then are they morally responsible for their actions?
People are always responsible for their actions and inactions. I have no idea what difference the qualifier 'moral' makes.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
And, where you believe this to not be the case, is society morally obligated to operate under the rule of law?
The law is merely a set of rules and not necessarily ethical. If one is willing to face the consequences, by all means transgress on the law.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 4:22:30 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Mons, I think you already know the answer to this and you'll find you've already stated it below:
quote:

ORIGINAL: mons
i find out that he is a special needs child at that time . but for reason i will never understand he parents were so shamed of him they did not place him in the class he would need. one on one help teaching he right from wrong.so the years passed and he became just so bad and was in trouble for so long


Also, read some child psychology books (not the fictional kind) by Jonathan Kellerman, he has a sound background as a child psychologist, but has focused on psychopathology and is currently a clinical professor at the Keck. I recommend the following book for you:

Savage Spawn: Reflections on Violent Children (1999)




Dorothy Otnow-Lewis Guilty by Reason of Insanity

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 4:35:26 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
Actually, thats a pretty dangerous notion that led to the eugenics programs of the 40's and 50's etc...

That is a different subject.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I feel environmental factors and upbringing pose a much greater role than being "bad stock"...

There is some truth in that. Lead for example increases criminal behaviour, presumably because it reduces the intellectual abilities of exposed people. So car exhaust (as petrol has lead added to it), especially in big cities and near large roads, and paints and lead water pipes will increase the crime rates. The implication is obvious: reduce traffic and in forty years the crime rate will be reduced.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
Now with his being special needs there may be a whole other area at play in that if he has no understanding of right and wrong, and hence cannot comprehend the criminality of his conduct he is not a "criminal" even if he kills his mother and eats her... Criminality requires a guilty mind...

No. Crime is an act. It is guilt that requires a conscience.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
If hes special needs he may lack capacity and is just simply insane.

And criminal. The criminally insane.


1) Eugenics is not a different subject because if one embraces the idea that people are "born bad" the next logical step is to keep the bad from breeding... Hence the failed idea of eugenics.

2) As slaveboy noted there is no lead in any automotive gas sold in the United States, and there is only a little bit in 110LL (blue) Aviation Gasoline. Lead pipes are long gone, and nowadays you cant even use lead solder on copper pipes used for potable water. The inspector who checked my house even swabbed to ensure I had lead free solder.

3) The commission of a crime requires two things 1) Mens Rhea ("the guilty mind") and 2) Actus Rheus ("an overt act") If you are lacking one or the other there is no crime committed. Even physical impossibility is not a defense - provided the person has mens rhea and commits an actus rheus. A case we studied in a law class in college was that of a woman who hired a voodoo priestess to kill her ex-husband via voodoo. She was convicted because she had mens rhea (the guilty mind in that she knew what she was doing was illegal and even told the undercover officer that they needed to make sure it didnt come back on her etc) and an actus rheus (the overt act of hiring the voodoo priestess.) The fact that you cannot kill someone by Voodoo is irrelevant a crime took place. Conversely, absent either one - there is no crime. If someone daydreams about killing their wife thats perfectly legal, so long as they make no overt act. If someone does in fact kill their wife, but lacked specific intent or the capacity to know that what they were doing was wrong and likely to result in death - such as if they were using a nail gun and didnt realize she was on the other side of the wall, no crime has been committed. You need both. Hence the reason dick chaney shot a lawyer in the face and was not charged... He committed the overt act, ie the shooting, but lacked the intent...

4) There is no such thing as "criminally insane". That is an antiquated term. The actual ruling would be "not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect" and the person may then be committed to a mental institution under public health laws allowing the involuntary committment of people who "pose a danger to themselves or others". They are committed under public health laws, not criminal laws, and are not "criminally insane"... That term is an oxymoron.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 4:46:58 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

3) The commission of a crime requires two things 1) Mens Rhea ("the guilty mind") and 2) Actus Rheus ("an overt act")


There's no need to bring bestiality into it.


quote:

4) There is no such thing as "criminally insane". That is an antiquated term. The actual ruling would be "not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect" and the person may then be committed to a mental institution under public health laws allowing the involuntary committment of people who "pose a danger to themselves or others". They are committed under public health laws, not criminal laws, and are not "criminally insane"... That term is an oxymoron.


And another BS detector goes up in smoke.
http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/E4BAA86A-340C-4604-8CAA5DFB5DAF44F5


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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 5:03:52 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Scientists are leaning towards a theory that anti-social behaviour/criminality may be down to our genetic make up, with boys having a particular version of a gene that is much more likely to steer them towards such behaviour if they experience maltreatment from a young age. Focus on the latter part of that contradictory statement. Criminal behaviours are not inherited, a disadvantaged background (economic inequality) is certainly inherited but not personalities, views and characteristics which are formed. What this says is that one can deduce that given specific upbringings, youngsters can be identified as potential criminals before such an act has occurred. If maltreatment can trigger such behaviour, it's not unreasonable to suggest that with the correct counselling/treatment, those behaviours can be corrected. According to psychopathologists, parents have until the child hits puberty to be able to correct those behaviours.

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A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 5:07:39 AM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado



And another BS detector goes up in smoke.
http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/E4BAA86A-340C-4604-8CAA5DFB5DAF44F5




Or not... http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/more-criminal-topics/insanity-defense/the-model-penal-code-test.html

Clearly, a person can not be CRIMINALLY insane, if the legal determination of insanity negates the criminality of the conduct and renders the actor not criminally liable. Hence the reason I said it is an antiquated term and an oxymoron. In federal court and the majority of states a sucessful insanity defense results in a finding of not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect. A person who is not guilty has by definition been acquitted of the criminal charge. The M'Naughton rule is essentially dead as just about everyone, state and federal, has been using MPC since the 1980's.., So the term is, as I said, antiquated and dead...

Look at Riggins v. Nevada or Foucha v, Lousiana or Durham v. United States to learn more... 

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 5/31/2008 5:14:56 AM >

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 5:25:08 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
1) Eugenics is not a different subject because if one embraces the idea that people are "born bad" the next logical step is to keep the bad from breeding... Hence the failed idea of eugenics.
I am apathic, so I do not step. Arguably eugeneticists are mentally handicapped people that would have done humanity a service by not having any progeny themselves.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 6:03:23 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Insanity is a criminal court finding, not a medical one, so yes, there is such a thing as criminally insane, and no it isn't an oxymoron.

Google isn't alway your friend.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 9:07:03 AM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		I don't care if they are criminally insane or not.  If they committ certain crimes, they need to be dealt with.  Is a rabid dog "Not guiltyby way of illness" when it kills your kid? 
AAlso, if one of these psycopaths has a kid, is that kid likely to born like their parent?  That would qualify as a born criminal.  If we catch this in time is there a possibility to teach them righ from wrong?  I'd like to think so. 

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 9:38:30 AM   
cjan


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Status: offline 		To address the OP, imo, almost anything is possible in this world. However, I know of no studies or research to document that "criminals" are born. From what I've read, it seems that early developmental factors are most important in forming a psychopathic or sociopathic personality. The lack of empathy that many, if not all, of these folks makeup seems to be a developmental issue, and a complex one.

For example, although an extreme one. Under Ceausescu, the ruthless and dreaded Rumanian sectret police ranks came from  orphanages where male children, from infancy, were deliberaly neglected and isolated from human contact ( specifically holding and cuddling) so that they grew up to completely lack empathy.

Of course, there are many factors that go into creating a "criminal" personality. But, from what I have gleaned, they seem to be developmental and environmental rather than genetic.

< Message edited by cjan -- 5/31/2008 9:39:37 AM >

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 9:54:23 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I'd say yes.
Look at the Kennedys and the Clintons!
Crime families.

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