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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 9:57:23 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		Ah the age old question of "Nature vs Nurture."
 
For a long time, I sided strictly with the "nurture" side of the arguement.  Even in my various psychology courses, I tended to take the side of "nurture" in our in class debates.  Then I got out of school, took off my Own rose colored glasses, and examined things a tad more realistically via the lens of experience and my own family.
 
My brother and I have the same background - both genetically and via nurturing - with the exception of gender and 16 months of age difference.  (He's the elder, physically.)  We were raised by the same parents, in the same home, with the same rules and amounts of discipline, with the same (large and frequent) amounts of affection and praise for jobs well done.  Neither of us was given any advantage over the other by our mom or her second husband.  We both had the same opportunities financially and educationally growing up.  We went to the same schools, a year apart, and were taught the same cirriculum.  We were both raised to the same standards, via the same set of Ethics and same set of Moral standards.  (Some of those being a tad unconventional compared to other portions of society - but consistant within the household.)  We were  both taught that abuse was wrong, that mutual respect was necessary when dealing with anyone else regardless of equality, and that being unethical was the worst thing one could accomplish in life.
 
Genetically, our biological father was Intelligent - but alcoholic, abusive and blatantly hurtful towards others on both a physical and psychological basis.  (Hence why we were raised by mom and her Second husband!)
 
As adults, I went to college, raised 2 children, have never been in trouble with the law, and started my own company - but I have been chronically plagued by bad relationships involving choices of male companions who, like my biological father, tended to be abusive either physically or emotionally.  My brother on the other hand is an alcoholic and drug addict, has frequently abused his various girlfriends du jour, and considers the law to only apply to others (especially where various substance abuse laws are concerned) - he's jumped from job to job all his life, ran away from home at 15, has been involved in the drug culture since his teens, dropped out of school, considered college something for pansies and the military as something for control freaks.  (As if he's not one himself lol.)
 
Looking at the two of us - it's hard to imagine that a pair with such vastly Different beliefs could have been raised in the same household by the same set of rules and parents.  The only real explanation I've been able to come up with as a hypothesis is that my brother got a bit To much of our biological father's genetic input - because he has certainly followed in the footsteps of a man that was excluded from raising us, but had something to do with us on a strictly genetic basis.  My seeming predisposition towards choosing males who are bad for me - same thing - mom raised me to recognize potential abusers and avoid them, etc - yet I seem to consistantly find them anyway, regardless of the methods employed to avoid them.  Possibly a genetic flaw of some sort gained from my mother's side?

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 10:08:01 AM   
cjan


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Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		I appreciate your point of view, peachy and , imo, what you say illustates my comment that this is a complex issue.

Despite the fact that you and your brother share many genes, you are hardly genetically identical. Likewise, being raised in the same family , going to the same schools and having many developmental similarities, your experiences were not identical either.

I have known identical twins, raised in the samre family, that grow up to be completely different individuals and others that are hard to tell apart behaviorally as well as physically.

Ain't diversity wunnerful ?


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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 10:17:30 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Status: offline 		That's just it, Peach. You can analyse your family and conclude that you were 'raised the same', and the fact is, you weren't and can't possibly have. There will be the same fundemental likenesses to parenting skills, however, the differences in children's personalities plays a crucial part in how parents interact with them. My ex husband has four brothers, three successful, the 'baby' is pretty much a societal drop-out. They all were given the same financial advantages/opportunities, etc... but there were differences in parenting techniques when the last child was born and how the parents interacted with him.



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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 10:20:34 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		CJ - the whole point to the Nurture arguement is that since we Were raised in the same house, with the same standards and rules, the same amounts of affection recieved, etc - we should be More similar, despite the slight genetic differences, not less so. 
 
Our experiences didn't have any significant differences until the point where my brother ran away from home as a teen.  By the time someone is in their teens, their personality is formed, and very little Significant changes occure.  Research points to a person's most basic personality being formed by the time they are 5 or 6 and begin the outside educational process in Kindergarten.  (Granted, there is also evidence to the contrary when looking at cultures which do not utilize a western educational system - but when discussing those who are raised via the western system, those cultures and evidence from them is suspect if not completely irrelevant.)
 
Unless the theory that the personality is pimarily formed at an early age is completely off the mark - how would you account for someone who fails to deviate from the way they were raised until significantly After that point, all other things being equal, but there being Genetic evidence/input towards deviated behavior?  Both certainly play a role - and either can cancel out the other given sufficient opportunity to do so - I honestly believe that.  But looking at my brother, he makes it difficult to cling to the belief that Nurture will necessarily Win.  (It probably doesn't help my personal viewpoint, that mom stated more than once during the final 2 years of her life that my brother was simply a "bad seed" - but since she only died a few years ago, it was well after he and I were both grown adults!)

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 10:26:23 AM   
LadyIce


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Status: offline 		Nature vs. Nurture.

For most of us, it is 50/50, but I do believe many people become criminals because,
of the way they were raised.

In a very few cases, I believe that some people are genetically pre-disposed to criminal activities.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 10:29:21 AM   
cjan


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Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Peachy, it's not, imo, an either/or question re Nurture/Nature. It's far more complex and no one, as far as I know has the definitive answer. As MissMorrigan has said, there are also individual personality differences in each child that affects how parents, siblings and others relate to them and vice versa. It all goes into the barrel. Nature, nurture and individual differences that no one can account for.

We are like snowflakes, to coin a phrase... Each unique, yet the same. It's all so confusing, yet wonderful.


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"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 10:38:11 AM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Since mental illness is criminalised in most societies and some people are born with mental and emotional illnesses, technically speaking some are born criminals.

Are they born with the intent to commit crimes? I don't think so. Are they likely to cross the changing lines societies draw? Almost certainly.

Organisations create deviants as sopmeone I can't recall at this moment once said.


Z.


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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 10:39:27 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I'd say yes.
Look at the Kennedys and the Clintons!
Crime families.


If only they could be more like that fine, upstanding Bush family.  I mean, what's lying about the reasons for a war that's cost a hundred thousand lives, a few hundred billion dollars, and America's reputation, when you compare it with that disgusting Bill Clinton.  Imagine, getting a blowjob and then lying about it!  Thank God we have a truly moral President in the White House now.  God bless America!!! 

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 1:07:12 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		Morrigan, I've been sitting here contemplating possible differences in the way my brother and I were raised.  It's neither easy nor pleasant (at times) to do such an analysis - yet I feel that in fairness to the opposing view, it is something that I should do.
 
Thinking about it objectively (again, not always easy to accomplish lol) I have to agree with you that there were Some differences.  In many ways, despite mom being dead and dad being in a nursing home and us being grown adults supposedly on our own, there still are.  I'm expected to be responcibile - he isn't.  I'm expected to push myself - even if it means pushing myself Past my limits - while he's just sort of... well... not expected to, and frankly the family no longer considers him Capable of doing so.  I'm expected to accept the consequences of my actions, and to get myself out of trouble if I happen to find myself IN trouble - while even now dad just shakes his head and figures my brother is simply being the same irresponcible and slightly incompitant person he's always been.   When we were younger, we were both expected to accept the consequences of our actions - spankings were impartial, and were given to the same intensity and frequency based strictly on level of misconduct - and we Were held to the same standards as far as what was considered misconduct.  That impartiality changed when my brother became a Teenager, and started having to face the rest of the world at large as far as consequences went.  Guess those early lessons from birth until teens concerning  things like how to behave properly, to be considerate of others, to have a bit of respect for himself or those around him, and at least make an honest attempt to consider himself bound by the same rules as the rest of society (with both appropriate and inappropriate means of effecting necessary change) and be a decent person ... were nothing in the face later lessons to figure that his actions held no consequences, it was OK to be abusive, it was acceptable to use someone's Love as a weapon against them because even if you do they'll still love you, and that it's anyone's responcibility other than his own to clean up the messes he makes out of his life.
 
When my brother ran away at 15, it tormented our parents with worry for him and analyzing their own parenting skills and techniques wondering where They had gone wrong.  During the 3 weeks that he was missing, I had to watch our parents torture themselves emotionally with assumed guilt - and basically forget that I was alive, missing one of my Major voice compititions for that year, missing a drama production I was in, things of that nature - because I was expected to simply cope with what was going on and make due until things were "equal" again. Yet despite that, when he came home a few weeks later, he was welcomed back in the same generous nature as the proverbial prodigal child.  They went to counciling with him, stood by his decision to drop out of school (despite it being an extremely poor choice which they should have overruled) since he could already pass all the testing and had been able to for a while by then, offered to help him pay for college or tech school whichever he prefered (which happened to be Neither, until after he was 40 and no longer Physically able to be an unskilled laborer - then  he expected dad to simply pay for him to Finally get an education) - they bailed his butt out of jail more times than I care to count, even well after he became an adult.  And even now, when he's 43, if he gets picked up on a DUI (which is frequent with him) my nursing home bound father expects me to pick up where he left off, and continue to bail "big" brother out of jail.  Imagine their surprise when I flatly refused to do that or help bail him out of his drug related financial mismanagement to keep his utilities on, and made the comment that it was time he grew the fuck up and took responcibility for his OWN actions, rather than expecting someone to constantly clean up after him!
 

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 2:12:41 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I don't care if they are criminally insane or not.  If they committ certain crimes, they need to be dealt with.  Is a rabid dog "Not guiltyby way of illness" when it kills your kid? 
AAlso, if one of these psycopaths has a kid, is that kid likely to born like their parent?  That would qualify as a born criminal.  If we catch this in time is there a possibility to teach them righ from wrong?  I'd like to think so. 


If you don't 'catch' a child young enough (and I'd go with C. Ray Jeffery's much younger age... something like 5 or 6, IIRC), it is quite possible for them to grow up without a sense of right or wrong, without empathy and so forth...given that one of the hallmarks of a psychopathic personality is also the inability to understand the consequences of their actions, 'teaching' later on seems less likely.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 2:22:31 PM   
MissMorrigan


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Status: offline 		That must have been incredibly difficult for you to voice and I can understand the resentment you feel. The thing with kids is that they need consistency - consistent discipline, that is. They thrive within a well-structured and disciplined environment and one thing you convey regarding your brother is that while he had consistency, it was the consistency of 'allowance'. Parents tend to tear themselves up inside with guilt and blame themselves when one of their offspring has erred. They aren't sure what to do for the best, especially when faced with a child that has run away so they accept, continue to accept - for fear that their child will take flight once again. In essence, they become submissive to their children - children that are undisciplined, lack self control and have a propensity toward anti-social behaviour.

Kids are smart cookies, psychologists believe that the first seven years of a child's life are the most important in terms of environmental influences and nurturing.

My ex hubby's younger brother was smothered with kindness. His parents tormented themselves through guilt and instead of addressing the problems head on when he was repeatedly in trouble at school and other places, they would reassure him that he was a good boy and people just 'didn't understand' him. He's now in his mid forties, has never had a consistent work pattern, is an alcoholic/substance abuser and a few christmasses ago disappeared on Christmas morning when the whole family had gone to stay with his parents. He turned up two days later to notify everyone what a fantastic Christmas he'd had - he spent it at a local church with some underprivileged people getting a free meal and a gift of a pair of socks - he and some of his new 'buddies' then went hunting through the skips in the local town and he arrived home wearing a pair of jeans that were 'almost as good as new' from one of the skips - he didn't mind that they reeked of decay. He has no concept of the anguish he causes other people, namely his family.

What set him off is that he was the baby of the family and thoroughly spoilt. He learned there were no consequences for his actions, he was able to enjoy his games as a child and encouraged to continue them - he's never left one as a result.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 2:26:59 PM   
MissMorrigan


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Status: offline 		Alumbrado, I'm not sure I agree with that given that there are many examples of where child killers have been able to be rehabilitated just prior to reaching puberty. I've forgotten a lot of my old psych. manuals, I'll have to go back and do some reading as to why puberty is the crucial period for one's personality to be cast, so to speak.



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A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 2:46:57 PM   
cjan


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Status: offline 		Peachy, I grew up having a sister that was 4 years older than I. Even though we grew up in the same family, it became obvious to us both that she was held to a different standard than I, mostly because of the gender difference, but also due to the fact that she was first born. I recall an argument that my mother and father had once regarding the liberties that I was allowed as a young teen vs. what my sister was allowed. I remember overhearing my father say , "at least he won't come home knocked up". That's just a small example.

All I'm saying is that , other things being equal, no two siblings' experience, at any age, is gonna be the same.

My childhood and my sister's was not a happy one. The old man was a brute and abusive. I'm sure it had effects on myself and my sister. However, once we are grown, we do have free will and the ability to make our own choices. I agree with you that, whether  as child, or as adults, if we are not made to face the consequences of our actions, it is much harder, if not impossible, to mature and take responsibility for our owns lives.


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"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 3:03:32 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Alumbrado, I'm not sure I agree with that given that there are many examples of where child killers have been able to be rehabilitated just prior to reaching puberty. I've forgotten a lot of my old psych. manuals, I'll have to go back and do some reading as to why puberty is the crucial period for one's personality to be cast, so to speak.




C.Ray wasn't a psychologist, and I don't have his books out of storage, so it may have been closer to puberty than I said...but I'm thinking that his take on violent criminals was that they were molded earlier re: lack of empathy , etc.  than people wanted to admit. 
And he deemed a small handful of violent children who went on to commit a disproportionate share of crime as resistant to simple remedies later in life. Looks like the later research on closed head injuries in males related to aggression bears him out for that group.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 5/31/2008 3:06:30 PM >

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 3:52:45 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		I'll have to see if I can't pull some of my old psych texts out of storage as well, Morrigan.  There are conflicting theories as to when the personality is "set" so to speak.  The theories that I remember best from my courses are those which held that the most crucial portions of personality were formed early on - some parts barely out of infancy - and that by determining certain environmental factors during those crucial years a person either would or wouldn't follow possible genetic predispositions.  It is a theory which I agreed with for the most part.  I simply - don't see it being The determining factor.


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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 6:02:36 PM   
cjan


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Status: offline 		Imo, to give too much weight to the fact that personality is, undoubtedly, "set" early in life may be counterproductive. There is little doubt in my mind that personality is very much determined by very early experiences, but, to focus too much on this fact may underestimate the influence of later experience, learning and free will.

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 5/31/2008 11:55:37 PM   
MissMorrigan


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Status: offline 		The evidence is overwhelming to support that theory, Alumbrado. I know that some personality traits can be passed on through a family line, for instance my own son has a loathing of cooked tomatoes and mushrooms regardless of how they are prepared, so does his biological father and they also share some of the same mannerisms too, which is uncanny - yet, they do not know one another. My son was raised by his stepfather as his biological father wanted to opt out of any parental responsibility which, sadly, also meant he wanted no contact with his son.

If we can take some personality traits which clearly are passed on, put them in the hands of dysfunctional rolemodels and I can easily see how a child has a propensity towards a life of criminality. Children are easily moulded and I do agree that the older they become the harder, more resistent they'll become to behavioural correction.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
C.Ray wasn't a psychologist, and I don't have his books out of storage, so it may have been closer to puberty than I said...but I'm thinking that his take on violent criminals was that they were molded earlier re: lack of empathy , etc.  than people wanted to admit. 
And he deemed a small handful of violent children who went on to commit a disproportionate share of crime as resistant to simple remedies later in life. Looks like the later research on closed head injuries in males related to aggression bears him out for that group.


I don't think that psychologists believe that once the personality is set in early life that certain personality-based disorders are untreatable, just that they're more difficult/challenging to treat and may have a 'limit' of what can be done. There is also plenty of evidence to suggest a person can be rehabilitated, but it also seems that those who have been successfully rehabilitated (I'm talking specifically about children that have turned into killers) is that they were completely removed from their environment, so clearly that plays a huge factor.
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan
Imo, to give too much weight to the fact that personality is, undoubtedly, "set" early in life may be counterproductive. There is little doubt in my mind that personality is very much determined by very early experiences, but, to focus too much on this fact may underestimate the influence of later experience, learning and free will.


< Message edited by MissMorrigan -- 6/1/2008 12:14:27 AM >

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 6/1/2008 12:17:12 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Status: offline 		I won't be able to get mine out of storage given they were stored in teachests in my garage in my home in London - the mice decided they would be nice used as bedding, so set about shredding every leaf of paper - five tea chests worth! I'm sure I would be able to find their equivalent (the books, not the mice!) online for download.



_____________________________

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A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 6/1/2008 1:26:16 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Since mental illness is criminalised in most societies and some people are born with mental and emotional illnesses, technically speaking some are born criminals.

Are they born with the intent to commit crimes? I don't think so. Are they likely to cross the changing lines societies draw? Almost certainly.

Organisations create deviants as sopmeone I can't recall at this moment once said.


Z.

And nobody has yet pointed out, to my knowledge, that "criminal" behavior is labelled such according to what is considered criminal.

For instance, theft is a criminal offense in most of the West. In the old DDR, it was considered a mental illness because the acquisition of property - "stuff" -  was aberrant behavior.  I can see their point.

Possess mushrooms everywhere except Florida (IIRC), one is a criminal. In the Netherlands, Stropharia Cubensis can be purchased legally from Smart Shops.


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RE: is it possible to be born a criminal? - 6/1/2008 1:32:09 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Imo, to give too much weight to the fact that personality is, undoubtedly, "set" early in life may be counterproductive. There is little doubt in my mind that personality is very much determined by very early experiences, but, to focus too much on this fact may underestimate the influence of later experience, learning and free will.


I have no doubt that one can exercise their free will and choose to commit a crime, or that crimes can be the end result of a process that includes poor decision making skills.


But I am not at all sure that anyone chooses to be a psychopath, i.e. chooses to be without empathy, or chooses to be blind to the obvious consequences of their own actions.

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