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RE: Self-Esteem - 10/26/2005 7:24:16 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

To no one in particular ... I think it's a real stretch to assume that people with low self-esteem get into this to be rescued, saved, fixed, etc ...

Some undoubtedly do, but when you look at the posts here, one could imagine that for every one of that fits into this catagory, there are three that are unwantingly lumped into this catagory by people that are so intent on "protecting themselves", that they look on other only from the point of view of looking down on them. Could it possibly be that people can, on one hand have low self-esteem, and on the other have an interst in this lifestyle ... and that those two things are mutually exclusive?

Lacking self-esteem is a problem, but that's all it it is ... just a problem. People can outgrow it, or overcome it, or just learn to live with it. It's the sort of thing that may bother them inside, but doesn't have to bother those around them.

Of course, none of that accounts for the types of people that have had one or five or even fifty-five bad experiences with a certain type of person, and somehow come to the conclusion that large sugments of the human race may be judged, catagorized and classified by the victimization they feel.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 41

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/26/2005 8:05:33 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

To no one in particular ... I think it's a real stretch to assume that people with low self-esteem get into this to be rescued, saved, fixed, etc ...

You have a point, not everyone with low self esteem seeks this lifestyle (in fact some avoid it even more so), nor does everyone who seeks this lifestyle and has low self esteem seek to be rescued or saved. But as you note below, some do.

quote:

Some undoubtedly do, but when you look at the posts here, one could imagine that for every one of that fits into this catagory, there are three that are unwantingly lumped into this catagory by people that are so intent on "protecting themselves", that they look on other only from the point of view of looking down on them. Could it possibly be that people can, on one hand have low self-esteem, and on the other have an interst in this lifestyle ... and that those two things are mutually exclusive?

That is entirely possible. And not everyone feels they need to protect themselves from those with low self esteem... though those with low self esteem should guard themselves against those who seek to prey on them.

quote:

Lacking self-esteem is a problem, but that's all it it is ... just a problem. People can outgrow it, or overcome it, or just learn to live with it. It's the sort of thing that may bother them inside, but doesn't have to bother those around them.

That is true, some learn to live with it and incorporate it into their lives and relationships... it becomes part of who they are and how they live, and they can live happy lives that way. The previous post by daddysprop247 seems to be an example of exactly that, adapting to the situation and making the best of it. Some overcome it, and some of those that do use this lifestyle as a vehicle to do so, but not all. And while some in this lifestyle are willing to help a submissive with low self esteem overcome it, sadly, there is an even larger group that seeks to exploit it and often to the detriment of the submissive. Most of the profiles the OP referred to probably fall into that predatory group.

It may offend the dignity of some, but as a group, submissives with low self esteem tend to require more energy and effort from a dominant, they are more prone to tantrums, acting out, insecurity, being needy, etc. Some are worse for it than others, some are very mild about it, and a few never exhibit those behaviors at all... but as a group, they tend to be more work. In some cases they are well worth the extra effort, some have a lot of potential and turn out to be great slaves and companions, others... not so much.

quote:

Of course, none of that accounts for the types of people that have had one or five or even fifty-five bad experiences with a certain type of person, and somehow come to the conclusion that large segments of the human race may be judged, catagorized and classified by the victimization they feel.

Not quite sure what you meant by this?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 42

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 4:41:38 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

Some people who appear to project confidence or even overconfidence are actually compensating for a feeling that they really don't amount to much. I think they need external validation.

Bob

This is an excelent point Bob. It is one of the techniques we teach people with low self estem to help them deal with their problem. It is often in teraining sales people so their apparent self confidence will help their over all positiveness when making sales. Some of have looked an many techniques used in training sales staff and individually put together what I'll call Self Esteme Courses" for the sake of this debate, so that our clients/patients are able to actively work on self improvement. Conversely, if not used wisely, the result can be some one with a worse self esteem problem. It boild down to spending sufficient time talking to the person and really listening to what they saw and what their body language is saying too. There are no quick fixes.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to DesertRat)

Post #: 43

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 6:18:20 AM

Quivver

Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

Some people who appear to project confidence or even overconfidence are actually compensating for a feeling that they really don't amount to much. I think they need external validation.

Bob

This is an excelent point Bob. It is one of the techniques we teach people with low self estem to help them deal with their problem. It is often in teraining sales people so their apparent self confidence will help their over all positiveness when making sale.

Good points….but I’ve an unpopular addition to all this.
As I’ve read most posts are in reference to Subs with low self-esteem.
Yet courses such as these have spit out a number of (men) with a false
Sense of Bravado. I add this due to one I met a few years ago.
Oh so capable, projected the image of leadership, expected
Complete and absolute blind loyalty that attracted all the women.
Yea, I was one. In a short time the glue got transparent showing
All the insecurities of self-doubt. Needless to say it didn’t take long
For me to say good by. I’m not Dom bashing. I’m only adding this
Because so many look to the title rather then the Human expecting
Them to live up to what they say they are. So many new women
Come to this questioning themselves, try so hard to follow protocol
And find themselves in the hands of another that may have as many,
Sometimes more issues then they do. My only point here is
That this is not limited to Subs only.

Q

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 44

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 7:57:44 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

How could I not agree Quivver? My comments were general and relating to the people I see, many of whom are not in the lifestyle. I've simply assumed (yep not necessarily good but it does give a start point) that there are both Dominants and Submissives who suffer from a lack of self esteem in one form or another. Interestingly, I know quite a few people who in specific environments have no genuine lack of self esteem but in lets say a social setting suffer badly even though professionally their own experience and ability allows them to opperate without any lack of esteem as a professional in their own field. One example I can quote is a University proffessor who holds the chair in his field. Within his field of expertise, the man is a veritable lion. yet place him in a social setting well away from his speciality, he becimes a mass of raw nerves with no self confidence socially. Probably there are far more people who suffer in this way than we realise. If this is the case I could understand a Dominant or for that matter a submissive who oozes self confidence and ability within the life style lacks it in other settings.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Quivver)

Post #: 45

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 8:12:25 AM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

quote:

"I" am..told...everyone..should....s h o u l d have a self respect..and "I" have trouble with this...myself.
i have been abused by the world at large..telling me what a piece o' shit i am...3 wives..2 parents...my d.i. in boot...i have seldom EVER had ANYONE tell me i am a good person that i never deveolped a good feeling about myself.

now comes my 2nd Mistress. SHE has told me..Her hubby has told me..i AM good people...so it takes time to move past what i have heard for 52 yrs.

if any dominant accepts someone w/o self esteem......i warn them here n now........PREPARE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES!
you gotta pay to play and the piper takes a heavy toll at times.

my 3 cents

the wolf/lonewolf05

i have never seen you post anything that was not wise, kind and deferential; i love your voice here. i am not sure how you see yourself, but from what i can see, i'd love to count you amoung my friends.

pinkpleasures

_____________________________

(in reply to lonewolf05)

Post #: 46

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 8:16:51 AM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

Quivver<<

thank you (You?)

woofie

(in reply to Quivver)

Post #: 47

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 8:17:12 AM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

quote:

Wow, JustaTop, are you always this negative with a hint of nasty, or just having some really bad days? You seem to really punch with each post I read of yours.

FTopinMichigan

quote:

It takes a punch to get through to some people-not every post is like that. It got YOUR attention,didn't it? And isn't posting a disclaimer unneccesary? Are people so STUPID they can't see that ANY post is never more than a personal opinion?

JustaTop

i think Your posts are generally wise and -- in their own way -- very kind. i see no particular kindness in not speaking up about someone's error in thinking, or in holding Your tongue when You've had a contrary experience. i enjoy Your voice here...even with Your "direct" manner.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 10/27/2005 8:18:47 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 48

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 8:21:12 AM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

quote:

i have never seen you post anything that was not wise, kind and deferential;

**************look around..you will see many posts i made where i get blasted by several dommes telling me i suck....

i love your voice here. i am not sure how you see yourself, but from what i can see, i'd love to count you amoung my friends.

*******thank you..you are way too kind. it's folks like you that help me find a better me inside.
i am duly grateful.

woofie

(in reply to pinkpleasures)

Post #: 49

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 8:34:40 AM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

quote:

How could I not agree Quivver? My comments were general and relating to the people I see, many of whom are not in the lifestyle. I've simply assumed (yep not necessarily good but it does give a start point) that there are both Dominants and Submissives who suffer from a lack of self esteem in one form or another. Interestingly, I know quite a few people who in specific environments have no genuine lack of self esteem but in lets say a social setting suffer badly even though professionally their own experience and ability allows them to opperate without any lack of esteem as a professional in their own field. One example I can quote is a University proffessor who holds the chair in his field. Within his field of expertise, the man is a veritable lion. yet place him in a social setting well away from his speciality, he becimes a mass of raw nerves with no self confidence socially. Probably there are far more people who suffer in this way than we realise. If this is the case I could understand a Dominant or for that matter a submissive who oozes self confidence and ability within the life style lacks it in other settings.

IronBear

How very true...i grew to be confident as a professional and as a mother, and sometime ago, both pegs were knocked out from beneath me...my kid became an adult...and my career ended for all intents and purposes. i spent many months feeling like a parasite, worse than nothing...then (with help) one day, i realised people are INTRINSICLY valuable, and that my values still guided my life choices...and i was still valuable. i think it's a transition many people make at the end of their careers....we here in the US tend to see people as if their job defined who they are..

Now i'd say i'm a battle-scarred woman; stronger and wiser than most in some ways; lonlier and less hopeful in others...but a valuable person when taken as a whole, whether i ever set foot in court again or not.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 10/27/2005 8:40:06 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 50

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 8:38:55 AM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

quote:

quote:

i have never seen you post anything that was not wise, kind and deferential;

**************look around..you will see many posts i made where i get blasted by several dommes telling me i suck....

i love your voice here. i am not sure how you see yourself, but from what i can see, i'd love to count you amoung my friends.

*******thank you..you are way too kind. it's folks like you that help me find a better me inside.
i am duly grateful.

woofie/lonewolf05

Woofie, i am sorry; i have not seen any posts degrading you...but i would certainly speak up...i cannot abide cruelty. Next time it happens..if it does..drop me an email and i'll help you.

pinkpleasures

_____________________________

(in reply to lonewolf05)

Post #: 51

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 9:45:56 AM

Quivver

Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Probably there are far more people who suffer in this way than we realise. If this is the case I could understand a Dominant or for that matter a submissive who oozes self confidence and ability within the life style lacks it in other settings.

IMHO, it’s in the Honesty we give. Be it the Honesty we give to ourselves or to others. Without the awareness of what we truly want and possibly better said don’t want, we lack the right questions. Although exactly what we want is sometimes subject to degrees of evolution, we have to be confidant enough to risk being directly honest with all, including that one in the mirror...sigh... so much easier said then done.

Q

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 52

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 9:57:06 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Probably there are far more people who suffer in this way than we realise. If this is the case I could understand a Dominant or for that matter a submissive who oozes self confidence and ability within the life style lacks it in other settings.

IMHO, it’s in the Honesty we give. Be it the Honesty we give to ourselves or to others. Without the awareness of what we truly want and possibly better said don’t want, we lack the right questions. Although exactly what we want is sometimes subject to degrees of evolution, we have to be confidant enough to risk being directly honest with all, including that one in the mirror...sigh... so much easier said then done.

Q

Never were truer words spoken Quivver. I whole hartedly agree with you.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Quivver)

Post #: 53

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 10:26:44 AM

Quivver

Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Never were truer words spoken Quivver. I whole hartedly agree with you.

Awe Shucks IronBear ... Thanks, validation always helps that self esteem cause!

Q

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 54

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 11:02:36 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Of course, none of that accounts for the types of people that have had one or five or even fifty-five bad experiences with a certain type of person, and somehow come to the conclusion that large segments of the human race may be judged, catagorized and classified by the victimization they feel.

Not quite sure what you meant by this?

Lets look at the thoughts below from people responding to the original thread:

Men that want them (people with low self-esteem) are masochists.

People with low self-esteem are a lot of work.

Low self-esteem people tend to be explosive drama queens/victim types.

They are emotionally draining.

They become so needy that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - they pester and pester and are passive aggressive.

Low self esteem creates a trickle down effect that touches every aspect of a person's life. It makes them needy, unpleasant people to be around. They require constant energy to be expended in picking them up and getting them through their day.

if any dominant accepts someone w/o self esteem......i warn them here n now........PREPARE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES!

It may offend the dignity of some, but as a group, submissives with low self esteem tend to require more energy and effort from a dominant, they are more prone to tantrums, acting out, insecurity, being needy, etc. Some are worse for it than others, some are very mild about it, and a few never exhibit those behaviors at all... but as a group, they tend to be more work.

Now, these are all amazingly broad generalizations. Even if you were to date one-hundred people with low self-esteem, that sample groups would still be so small, that it would be statistically meaningless.

Again, no offense to anyone intended, but I think people would be well served to place everyone they meet, in a category of one. My name is Caitlyn, and I struggle at times with low self-esteem. That is the only group I fit in to ... the one with me and the things I have to deal with.

If someone were to enter a relationship with me, and came in with any of the pre-conceived notions stated above, they will probably end up finding exactly what they have gone so far out of their way to look for ... and they will find it, even if it doesn't exist. They will find it because they are entering into a relationship with one person, based on all the baggage they accumulated from relationships form others.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 55

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 11:13:08 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

If someone were to enter a relationship with me, and came in with any of the pre-conceived notions stated above, they will probably end up finding exactly what they have gone so far out of their way to look for ... and they will find it, even if it doesn't exist. They will find it because they are entering into a relationship with one person, based on all the baggage they accumulated from relationships form others.[/color]

Ok caitlyn,

What would be your thoughts then is you were for example to enter into a relationship with me. I'd only know what you have said about sometimes struggling with low self esteem abd what I've seen from you here in CM. In other words no preconceived ideas about you and I'd have a completely open mind as well as being receptive to your needs in a Dominant manner. keeping in mind that I normally have a system of one box one person and use lables only for sorting.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 56

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 11:30:19 AM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

JustaTop

This is why I always get a bit bent at the amatuer shrinks out there.

Get a grip on your toppy egos people. Having a knight in shining armour fixation does NOT qualify you to fix someone else's head.

Leave it to the pros.
==================
JUSTATOP<<<<<<<<<<

leaving it to-the-pros is NOT always a good idea...EITHER!
why?
ok..because--------as in MY case? they just don't give a shit......but with the gentleness....and loving care of my Mistress......SHE cares if i live or die.
the damned so-called head doctors at the V.A. don't give a damn.....
if i walked in with a gun and said i was going to kill someone.......or myself........THEN they care. but if you have a tizzy fit........they just clam up and put you in a "holding"cell" til they can get you shot up with meds......
"I" know........"I" tore up the 2nd floor waiting room in calif in the v.a.-----
they don't care.......
all mouth and no action.
and the v.a. system here in wiscconsin........2 year waiting list JUST to be seen the 1st time.......

NO!
the "pros" are not always THEE best solution......SOOOOOOOO

sometimes........not all cases......but in MY case......this lifestyle IS the best remedy......
MY Ms is the best thing EVER happened.....

but this is JUST my personal view.

ya'all take care....

wolf

< Message edited by lonewolf05 -- 10/27/2005 11:32:10 AM >

(in reply to FTopinMichigan)

Post #: 57

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 11:35:51 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

I think the thread has gotten away from the original question again which was about a person purposely looking for someone with low or no self-esteem.

My comments at least were about the group searching not about anyone who might have low or no self-esteem.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 58

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 11:39:59 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

I would make every attempt to let past relationships with other people stay where they belong ... in the past. I would have that same expectation from the other person.

People have enough problems as individuals, without paying the price of admission to a group, or paying for sins from relationships that are long since past.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 59

RE: Self-Esteem - 10/27/2005 11:42:09 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Again, no offense to anyone intended, but I think people would be well served to place everyone they meet, in a category of one. My name is Caitlyn, and I struggle at times with low self-esteem. That is the only group I fit in to ... the one with me and the things I have to deal with.

If someone were to enter a relationship with me, and came in with any of the pre-conceived notions stated above, they will probably end up finding exactly what they have gone so far out of their way to look for ... and they will find it, even if it doesn't exist. They will find it because they are entering into a relationship with one person, based on all the baggage they accumulated from relationships form others.

Gotcha.

When I speak about groups of people, I deal with what is common to the group. Thus if I am speaking about artists as a group, I refer to those things common to artists as a group. When I speak of people with low self esteem, I refer to those things common to having low self esteem. They are broad generalizations because I'm dealing with a group and at best, all I can deal with are the generalities. There will always be exceptions to any such statement I make about any group because when you get into the specifics of individuals you always find exceptions to any rule.

But when I meet an individual, I deal with them as an individual. I take the time to get to know their personal history, who they are, their experiences, the things that have shaped them to be the person they are. And while I remain aware of those broad generalizations, I evaluate that individual for themself. I look at their individual qualities, potential and problems... and part of that evaluation includes asking myself, can I handle this? am I okay with that? will this interfere with my goals for the relationship? Those kinds of evaluations can never be made about a group, only about individuals.

Its not feasible or practical to treat a group as a group of individuals... what you end up with is lots of individuals in the same room and no group. We speak of groups in general terms because they are useful points of references, no more and no less.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 60

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