RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination?

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Irishknight -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 7:03:58 AM)
Wow. In our unit, the pilots just got yelled at and lost flight pay. Of course that was usually enough to get them back for their physicals.

kittinSol -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 7:05:58 AM)
Wasn't this occurring right when Georgie was having a few too many drinks? And do we really believe that nepotism didn't come into place when it came to his army records?

Aynne -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 7:10:50 AM)
I love mail from sexy french kitties~~purrrrrr quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Aynne - you've got mail, darling.

TreasureKY -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 7:54:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen ... but his jacket does contain incontravertible proof of his felony and it is covered by the charges of Dereliction and Failure to Obey. DomKen... FYI, the UCMJ does not classify offenses as felonies and misdemeanors. Where do you get off doing so? quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Here's what happens to an officer who won't follow SOP and loses flight status or some other status without requesting transfer and formally resigning the status, he gets to sit a court martial. He will be convicted, barring truly amazing circumstances, since there is no issue of fact to argue. The very best an officer can expect from such a court is a Bad Conduct Discharge but a snot nosed O-2 who jerked his squadron commander around about getting his flight physical is a dead certain lock for a Dishonorable Discharge and I'd guess he's about a 50/50 shot at doing time in jail. Ridiculous conjecture and evidence of your lack of understanding military law. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Anybody who doubts the issue should find a present or former serviceman and describe the issue without mentioning GWB. I'm perfectly willing to bet you'll be told he'd be charged with Dereliction and Failure to Obey. You would lose that bet. DA is precisely correct in his comments regarding this matter. Regards, Treasure a former legal specialist in the US Army

atursvcMaam -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 7:58:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Wasn't this occurring right when Georgie was having a few too many drinks? And do we really believe that nepotism didn't come into place when it came to his army records? Please say it isn't so. A politician who drinks too much? A career military person who does not realize that he is dealing with the son of a general or high ranking civilian government employee would probably be considered unwise. That may be the reason that there seems to be inadequate documentation or evidence for a prosecution. By the way, i am also shocked that a soldier might take the steps that he can to avoid combat. Go figure.

kittinSol -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 8:00:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam A career military person who does not realize that he is dealing with the son of a general or high ranking civilian government employee would probably be considered unwise. That may be the reason that there seems to be inadequate documentation or evidence for a prosecution. Bingo.

DomKen -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 9:38:38 AM)
Treasure you're full of it on this and you know it. GWB knew he needed a physical to remain on flight status and knew he needed to get it before a certain date. Failing to do so is cut and dried derelcition. As a pilot in a pilots billet he was under a lawful order to retain flight status failure to do so is black letter failure to obey a lawful order Dereliction and Failure to Obey will get you a General Court and a conviction by a General Court is a felony conviction. As an officer GWB would be punished more severely than a enlisted person so what would almost certainly be a BCD for an enlisted would get an officer a DD. I've gone over this with several former JAG prosecutors. Every single one said it was a slam dunk. They were all adamant on the outcome until I explained that it was GWB.

DomAviator -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 9:50:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne A little morning reading for DA. Please remove the GOP issued blinders in order to fully comprehend the below article. (Remainder edited for brevity) Aynne, First of all - Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source and this particular article starts fucking up from the second word. (An Enlisted Lt? How odd what would that be an EO-1??? LMFAO) For the record, I never "enlisted" in the Navy and neither does any officer... (Hence the reason we are officers not enlisted men. I went in as an "Officer Cadidate", those attending the academy such as McCain are "midshipmen", and once we graduate we are "commissioned". So Lt. bush was "commissioned a 2nd Lt" he did not enlist.) So, that error from the very second word sets the tone of the rest of the peice. In terms of factual accuracy, it goes downhill from there... For example, the 147th is hardly a "champage unit"... It has served honorably in wars ranging from WW1 to the present day... At Ellington Field here in Houston, where the 147th is based, there is a monument listing the names of the dead... So, that too sets the "bullshit" tone of the piece.... However, if we choose to accept the piece at face value the 9 traning flights in a T-33 count as does the simulator time. Going back to my prior statements about "accumulation of points" As for his twice needing multiple tries to land, whoopie - been there done that and any pilot civilian commercial or military who hasnt is either an idiot or a liar. Thats why they have a "Missed Approach Procedure" and "Minimums" published on every approach plate. Use of these are NOT "optional" For example if you look at the approach plate for HI-ILS1 RWY 35L KEFD (one of the approaches for 35 Left at Ellington field where bush flew) the minimums for a circling apprach are 500 feet and 1-1/2 miles meaning if you dont have a visual on Runway 35L by the time you are 500 AGL and 1-1/2 miles out you must execute missed approach... on the S-ILS it is 227 feet AGL and 4000 feet out. The missed approach procedure published is : "Climb to 500 then climbing right turn to 2500 bia EFD R-136 to WATFO Intersection EFD 16 DME and Hold". Failure to do that is called "Busting Minimums" and is a very very VERY bad thing that results in, at the very least, a call to "Come to the tower"... Once you come, it goes downhill from there and can result in you and a lawyer going to Oklahoma City.... [;)] So essentially the piece tries to make bush look bad because he executed missed approach procedure twice and went around rather than busting minumums??? A bit biased I would say... I have missed approaches as recently as two weeks ago, and thats the weathers fault not mine. The pilot doesnt control visibility, God does so take it up with him. If God doesnt give you what the approach plate designates as minumums you go around... On a carrier if the LSO says "Wave Off Wave Off" you go around and try again or you pray that you die in the resulting crash - cause you REALLY dont want to live after ignoring a wave off... However, the fact that no action was taken but to remove him from flight status pretty much confirms what I said earlier. It looks like he had a couple of hairy approaches, lost the edge, hung it up and walked away. Which is smart, because there are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots... Once again it seems that bush had the necessary points, and the CO said fuck it he has enough points, hes off flight status, we will just let the clock run out. Flying is voluntary, and he could have hung it up any time. I see nothing insiduous in what you posted. Yes, he broke the rules needed to remain on flight status. So what if the CO cut the kid a break and let him leave without turning in his wings? Again going back to Top Gun, which isnt a truly accurate reflection of naval aviation but one recognized by most outside the community - Remember when Maverick went for that walk and fatherly chat with the Top Gun commander to "discuss his options". That session was "infomal counseling" and as such wouldnt go in his jacket... My guess is a similar thing happened with Bush. He talked to the old man (CO) over a shot of Jerimiah Weed and was told "Ok son well you have enough points so just ride it out and quit. No sense transitioning you to the new birds, you can come back if you want to." (Remember the squadron was moving away from the F-102's at the time.) Sounds to me like the old man didnt want to do the paperwork, and figured just eat the clock and leave the kid (Bush) with a pilot designator so he could fly for Continental or United if he chose to or to leave the door open for him to come back if he got his nerve back... Actually, thats a pretty good CO... In the pilot world, walking away is shame enough you dont need a court martial or NJP because the whispers and comments that he "didnt have the right stuff" and "used to be a good man" is worse...

DomAviator -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 10:06:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Treasure you're full of it on this and you know it. GWB knew he needed a physical to remain on flight status and knew he needed to get it before a certain date. Failing to do so is cut and dried derelcition. As a pilot in a pilots billet he was under a lawful order to retain flight status failure to do so is black letter failure to obey a lawful order Dereliction and Failure to Obey will get you a General Court and a conviction by a General Court is a felony conviction. As an officer GWB would be punished more severely than a enlisted person so what would almost certainly be a BCD for an enlisted would get an officer a DD. I've gone over this with several former JAG prosecutors. Every single one said it was a slam dunk. They were all adamant on the outcome until I explained that it was GWB. Ken sorry but you are full of it like a christmas turkey on this. There is NO SUCH THING AS A JAG PROSECUTOR. No such animal, doesnt exist. Sorry. Bullshit. A JAG lawyer is assigned to either prosecute or defend based on the individual case. There are NO "JAG Prosecutors" PERIOD. No JAG would discuss a hypothetical case with you. PERIOD. (In case you dont know JAGs are the most aloof and noncommittal creatures on the planet. You would have a better chance sitting down to a conversation in which you would obtain definitive answers from the Chupacabra and Bigfoot than with a JAG.) Furthermore, flight status is voluntary. The flight physical is mandatory only for those who want to remain on flight status. If I chose to stop flying I dont need a flight physical. It is up to personell to find me a new billet. You cannot MAKE me get in that aircraft any more than you can drag a submariner kicking and screaming into a submarine. It is volunteer duty, and if you decide you will not do it personell can, and will, find you a nice job as a weather observer in Greenland or as a supply officer in Diego Garcia... As Treasure pointed out the UCMJ does not have "felonies" so that too is bullshit. It is a "punitive article" or it is not. Also, where in the UCMJ does it say that an officer is punished more severely? Actually the opposite holds true as there are a number of sanctions, such as reduction in rank, that can not be used against officers. I realize you have a major chubby for President Bush, but were you even IN the military? I mean UCMJ felonies? More severe punishments for officers? JAG Prosecuters? JAG prosecutors who give slam dunk definitive answers? Mandatory flight status? Court martials for pilots who lose the edge and hang it up? Is this some military in some parallell universe cause it bears no fucking resemblance at all to the one I was in?????

kittinSol -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 10:07:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Every single one said it was a slam drunk. They were all adamant on the outcome until I explained that it was GWB. Just corrected a little typo for you, Ken :-) .

Aynne -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 10:08:41 AM)
DA, A little background k? My father served in the military for 38 years and my sister and b-in-law are both stationed in the air force in oklahoma. Ummm, they both vehemently disagree with your assessment of what would have happened to Shrub if he were not "the fortunate son." Quit putting that painful to read spin on it. You know it and I know it. And if that pathetic useless cowardly excuse for a human being is what you hold your standards to for men and women of the military I am truly shocked. He is the lowest common denominator possible, a spineless weasely little cowboy of a man, and he makes a mockery of the military and of the office of the President. Shame on him and anyone that can support him. Swine.

DomKen -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 10:40:18 AM)
DA, at sea and at smaller commands that might be true but I worked downstairs from JAG at teh Washington Naval Yard and they had seperate offices for the prosecutors and defense attornies. I've spoken to two lawyers from the firm my company keeps on retainer who are former JAGs and they both attest to having been prosecutors. You're welcome to come up here and call them liars if you wish. I've said it several times GWB never gave up his wings. Until he did he was required to maintain flight status. As I've said now twice if you get a general court conviction that is a felony conviction otherwise they couldn't sentence you to more than 1 year in jail. As to your claim that officers aren't punished more harshly than enlisted, what Navy did you serve in? There are even special crimes only an officer can commit which the precise same action by an enlisted man gets no charge except maybe NJP for drunk and disorderly on liberty.

DomAviator -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 10:51:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne DA, A little background k? My father served in the military for 38 years and my sister and b-in-law are both stationed in the air force in oklahoma. Ummm, they both vehemently disagree with your assessment of what would have happened to Shrub if he were not "the fortunate son." Quit putting that painful to read spin on it. You know it and I know it. And if that pathetic useless cowardly excuse for a human being is what you hold your standards to for men and women of the military I am truly shocked. He is the lowest common denominator possible, a spineless weasely little cowboy of a man, and he makes a mockery of the military and of the office of the President. Shame on him and anyone that can support him. Swine. Aynee, I appreciate you passion and your relatives service. However, if they are not pilots they probably have no clue as to the intricasies of leaving flight status. My father was a Master Chief who spent pretty much his entire adult life in the Navy in every diving community except SEAL's. Which qualified him to know jack squat about changing officer designators or leaving flight status.... Once again - flight status is voluntary. Your obligated service as a result of getting flight training is not but flight status is voluntary. People quit. It happens. It is up to personell to change the designator and to get the officer a non-flying billet. These billets are not necessarily pleasant, depending on the circumstances of the persons departure. You just might find yourself "Liason Officer To McMurdo Station" but it is up to someone else to find you a new job. FYI - a lot goes on in the officer community, particularly in aviation, the differs from the rest of the military. For example I could have been court martialed for reporting back aboard piss drunk and pantsless following a three day bender in a whorehouse. However, it was handled at Mast. I was by no means a "favored son" and my dad was a master chief not the CIA director. However, my CO in his judgement felt that assigning me extra watches to stand and making me teach the sexual harassment / gender sensitivity class was punishment enough. A good CO isnt out to see how many skins of young officers he can hang on his wall. Furthermore, a good CO isnt going to push the issue and try to get a guy who has lost the edge to remain on flight status. Frankly, if Bush lost the edge and I was his CO I wouldnt want him... I would rather he stay away than that I find myself in a furball and say "Where the hell did my fucking wingman go??? God damn that shrub!!!" I am not saying he was the greatest thing in the skies and was the American Red Baron. My gut says he lost the edge and walked away (an assumption supported by the fact that to this day he doesnt fly as a civilian and hasnt had a valid FAA medical since leaving the service despite holding Commercial Pilot certificates for airplane single and multiengine land and an instrument rating. By contrast his dad George H does still fly and actually owns a turboprop) So, he lost it and quit - big deal....

Aynne -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 11:07:28 AM)
Pretty much DomKen. Let's see the spin on this one[8\|] \ quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen DA, at sea and at smaller commands that might be true but I worked downstairs from JAG at teh Washington Naval Yard and they had seperate offices for the prosecutors and defense attornies. I've spoken to two lawyers from the firm my company keeps on retainer who are former JAGs and they both attest to having been prosecutors. You're welcome to come up here and call them liars if you wish. I've said it several times GWB never gave up his wings. Until he did he was required to maintain flight status. As I've said now twice if you get a general court conviction that is a felony conviction otherwise they couldn't sentence you to more than 1 year in jail. As to your claim that officers aren't punished more harshly than enlisted, what Navy did you serve in? There are even special crimes only an officer can commit which the precise same action by an enlisted man gets no charge except maybe NJP for drunk and disorderly on liberty.

DomKen -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 11:22:19 AM)
Well I've had enough fun helping DA dig his hole. I haven't been telling the whole story to see how far the righties would go in providing BS answers. In 2000 when asked why he missed the physical he claimed he wanted his family physician to perform it, not allowed by ANG and USAF regulations so not the real reason. After being removed from flight status the National Guard Bureau ordered GWB to acknowledge the suspension in writing, he didn't, and ordered his CO to conduct an investigation in compliance with AFM 35-13 to either result in a flight evaluation board or a recommendation up the chain of command, no record of the investigation exists and neither action was taken. As to the claim that he may have turned in his wings, here is a picture of GWB right before his "mission accomplished" speech wearing a flight suit with a flight wings patch. So either he did not turn in his wings in 1972 or he was wearing wings he had no right to in 2003.

Aynne -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 11:26:27 AM)
DomKen the really tragic part? They ( the righties ) will still spin it into gold even after you tell the whole story. Their bizarre insistence in defending that man is disturbing. baaa baaa good sheeple.

atursvcMaam -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 11:30:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne DA, A little background k? My father served in the military for 38 years and my sister and b-in-law are both stationed in the air force in oklahoma. Ummm, they both vehemently disagree with your assessment of what would have happened to Shrub if he were not "the fortunate son." Quit putting that painful to read spin on it. You know it and I know it. And if that pathetic useless cowardly excuse for a human being is what you hold your standards to for men and women of the military I am truly shocked. He is the lowest common denominator possible, a spineless weasely little cowboy of a man, and he makes a mockery of the military and of the office of the President. Shame on him and anyone that can support him. Swine. Thank you for the background. Thank you for your family's service to the country. Do they still, upon entry into a unit, ask about a parent's civilan grade or military rank? My Dad's general answer to that was to tell them he was a "piano player in a whorehouse". My mom, on the other hand, often discussed with my dad that he had the "juice" to keep her sons (my older brothers) out of harm's way. i am not highly impressed with Bush's record, but his opponent at the time came back stateside with horror stories about his comrades in arms that i found more distasteful and equally as difficult to prove to the point of conviction. It's okay, W isn't running this year. Obama has no US military record, and McCain does. My respect for my dad's wishes got me sent to the principal's office every year on the first day of school.

Aynne -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 11:37:32 AM)
Sarcasm duly noted. I am not an Obama fan btw, wrong assumption. I will vote for him though of course over the poor doddering mess that McCain has become. Frightening. I do not think that the office of the potus requires prior military service. Do you? If so, why?

atursvcMaam -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 11:47:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne DomKen the really tragic part? They ( the righties ) will still spin it into gold even after you tell the whole story. Their bizarre insistence in defending that man is disturbing. baaa baaa good sheeple. i usually tend to vote against rather than for a candidate. i can't always remember the reasons why, but i voted against the possibility of a potential president Dan Quayle, was uncomfortable with a candidate that forced me to turn off the radio (too late) and try to diplomatically explain the significance of a blue dress that made me spray my windshield with coffee as we were driving along. If i get truly disgusted i tend to vote 3rd party. However, who becomes president is commander in chief. it is the way that it works. The law not only sets up the opportunity to correct a mistake once every four years, but if there is a legal issue, to bring about an impeachment.

atursvcMaam -> RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? (6/6/2008 11:58:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne Sarcasm duly noted. I am not an Obama fan btw, wrong assumption. I will vote for him though of course over the poor doddering mess that McCain has become. Frightening. I do not think that the office of the potus requires prior military service. Do you? If so, why? No sarcasm was intended, my apologies for any sting. You are correct, Military service is not a requirement. 11 presidents never served in the military. i would be overjoyed to see a 3rd party candidate for this race. Barring that, i am trying to find who will do the least harm.

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