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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 10:41:28 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Yeah, I bet that if I hit the powerball lottery all those 38 year olds who "aren't interested in anyone older than 50" would see me in a, "new light."

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 10:47:17 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I'm not so sure that men or women have changed much in the last 20 or 30 years ... or even the last 2,000 to 3,000 years.

What has changed is the economy and certain aspects of our technological society in which men and women operate.


I agree with Firm's assessment (go figure ) but I suspect there's another much simpler explanation.   With the advent of chemical birth control and subsequent general acceptance of abortion, women do not have the same fears of pregnancy that they once had.  Having sex without being married is no longer the risk it once was. 

Men can now easily get a piece of ass without having to get married.  Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?




< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 6/2/2008 10:58:59 AM >

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 10:51:20 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

FirmhandKy:   However, the underlying emotional context and drives that control people are generally expressions of the sexual drive to reproduce.

Crap, mine is broken.


nahhh, just in hiding and recovery mode. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

In the "mating ritual of life" between the sexs, one of women's primary reproductive strategies has been to acquire a man with resources in order to help maximize the success of her offspring 
Has been? Did it change then, or not? When was the last era or decade in which you feel this is applicable?

Evolutionary changes often take a very long time.  The current economic and technological changes have not likely had enough time to make changes in basic human psychology.  Behavior, however, is more malleable towards environmental factors.

The mentioned strategy "has been" around a long, long time, and is still around, but is undergoing pressure because of the economic and technological viability of other options.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

With the ability of women to terminate a pregnancy at any time, and with women's now greater ability to provide for both themselves and their offspring, the need of a woman for a man to provide dedicated resources through a marriage has been undermined.

[Gross generalization, in answer to yours] With the increasingly easy ability of men to walk away from the obligations of their marriages and their offspring, the benefit of relying on a man to provide dedicated resources through a marriage has been undermined.


Chicken or the egg.  You can argue it either way (and I think I did, thank you).  Women can more easily choose not to "marry" or "seek union" in order to raise offspring, and a man feels less obligated because he is aware that she can.

It's not an "either/or" blame game.  It's simply the intersection of economics, society and evolutionary theory.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 6/2/2008 11:05:09 AM >

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 10:52:35 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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Status: offline 		Answer to thread topic: so what?

Marriage is a social construct. It isn't actually necessary in any way. It's just another way to put us all into categories and box us in for a variety of legal reasons.

We need new thinking regarding some legal propositions. The law should be neutral to social constructs like marriage. The government should promote the individual - not couples, partnerships, nor corporations.

When you start digging into what people think about marriage all you will find is a series of personal prejudices.

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 10:53:18 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Well men havnt changed much in many decades... what has changed in the past 20-30 years? Women. Women today are much different than they were in the 60s and 70s. And divorce rates are soaring...

Im not trying to be sexist...Im simply pointing out a correlation that cant be dismissed.


yes...we now know when your cheating on us.


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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 11:02:46 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Answer to thread topic: so what?

Marriage is a social construct. It isn't actually necessary in any way. It's just another way to put us all into categories and box us in for a variety of legal reasons.

We need new thinking regarding some legal propositions. The law should be neutral to social constructs like marriage. The government should promote the individual - not couples, partnerships, nor corporations.

When you start digging into what people think about marriage all you will find is a series of personal prejudices.


Partially true, but mainly untrue.

Marriage is indeed a social construct, that fufills a real evolutionary purpose.  The current social and political drive to make it something else is just another aspect of the changes in technology and the economy that I have already mentioned.

Human cultural can be seen as external evolutionary change and adaption by the human species.  Most (the great majority) of human culture's through-out history have recognized some sort of "single man/single woman" union, primarily devoted to reproductive tasks (and yes, there have been and are other arrangements as well - harems are a good example of a different set of mating imperatives).

The point that you seem to want to hide or mis-understand is that you believe that marriage is simply, and nothing more than a make-believe social construct by the "powers-that-be" in order to "put us all into categories and box us in for a variety of legal reasons".

In reality, "marriage" is a critical part of our species reproductive strategy.

Could other strategies, and adaptations of "marriage" contribute to greater reproductive success, or at least not be determinal to our species success?  Possibly.  I don't have enough information one way or the other to make that conclusion on hard facts, and I suspect it will be several hundred - if not thousand - of years before sufficient facts are in.

Firm


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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 11:02:50 AM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Yeah, I bet that if I hit the powerball lottery all those 38 year olds who "aren't interested in anyone older than 50" would see me in a, "new light."


You'll get a whole bunch of 22 year old gold-diggers as well searching for that sugardaddy.

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 11:02:51 AM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

FirmhandKy:   However, the underlying emotional context and drives that control people are generally expressions of the sexual drive to reproduce.

Crap, mine is broken.


nahhh, just in hidding and recovery mode. 


Sorry, this wasn't clear. There is nothing wrong with my sexual drive. I'm zesty, I am. But it has absolutely nothing to do with reproduction.

quote:

Chicken or the egg.  You can argue it either way (and I think I did, thank you).  Women can more easily choose not to "marry" or "seek union" in order to raise offspring, and a man feels less obligated because he is aware that she can.
Seriously? That's why many, many men don't pay child support?

Him: I know the court has decided that my kids should receive XX amount of money from me because they exist and therefore need things and I had an equal part in making them exist, but she can earn money so they really don't need it.

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 11:06:33 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Status: offline 		Fast reply...I fear nothing about the bounds of marriage,This is my second and very last one..I feel very content with a ring on my finger...bounty

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 11:09:49 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

...The law should be neutral to social constructs like marriage. The government should promote the individual - not couples, partnerships, nor corporations.


Why?

The Law and Government are not one in the same, though they both exist (or should) to serve society. 

I fail to see where the Government promoting the individual accomplishes that.

As far as the law, as long as there are partnerships that have the capacity to physically, financially and emotionally impact the participants and third parties, I cannot imagine a society where there was no structure to facilitate their formation or dissolution.

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 11:19:05 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Sorry, this wasn't clear. There is nothing wrong with my sexual drive. I'm zesty, I am. But it has absolutely nothing to do with reproduction.


uhh.  The sex drive ... has nothing to do with the reproductive instinct?   huh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

Chicken or the egg.  You can argue it either way (and I think I did, thank you).  Women can more easily choose not to "marry" or "seek union" in order to raise offspring, and a man feels less obligated because he is aware that she can.
Seriously? That's why many, many men don't pay child support?

Him: I know the court has decided that my kids should receive XX amount of money from me because they exist and therefore need things and I had an equal part in making them exist, but she can earn money so they really don't need it.


You are personalizing this way too much.  Any one individual's "reasons" for their actions are their own.  In the aggragate, however, we seek explanations for behaviors of groups and species.

Talking "male vs female" in the big picture (not necessarily even human terms), both compete to see how much in the way of resources that they can make the other incur in the reproductive cycle, so that they can use their own resources to further increase their chances of additional reproductive success.

In those terms, the female is the one who "lost" the battle in most species.  She bears the biggest share of the cost of bearing, and then raising offspring. "Marriage", "child support" et al, are human cultural methods to try to even out this burden.

But a male (in general) who pursues the "spreading his wild seed" strategy simply isn't inclined to provide any more resources to his female partner.  That's the entire point.

Now, morally, do I accept this as a "good thing"?  No, not as a Christian American.  But as a scientific thinker, I understand the origin and drive.

Firm


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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 11:32:39 AM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Sorry, this wasn't clear. There is nothing wrong with my sexual drive. I'm zesty, I am. But it has absolutely nothing to do with reproduction.


quote:

uhh.  The sex drive ... has nothing to do with the reproductive instinct?   huh?
For me. I said. If reproduction comes up, so to speak, it would definitely kill the mood.

quote:

You are personalizing this way too much.  Any one individual's "reasons" for their actions are their own.  In the aggragate, however, we seek explanations for behaviors of groups and species.
No, I'm really not, that is a leap you're making. I said "many, many men." Would you argue that there is a not insignificant group of men who don't pay the child support they've been ordered to? That would be the behavior of a group, would it not?

quote:

But a male (in general) who pursues the "spreading his wild seed" strategy simply isn't inclined to provide any more resources to his female partner.  That's the entire point. Firm
That's hugely the problem, it seems to me. The resources aren't for his female partner. They are for his kids.





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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 11:50:40 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:


We need new thinking regarding some legal propositions. The law should be neutral to social constructs like marriage.


Bingo....

quote:


The government should promote the individual - not couples, partnerships, nor corporations.



Bingo again......and pull the trigger





- R


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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 12:05:51 PM   
parttimehotty


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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 12:06:21 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		I doubt the fear of commitment is on the rise.

I'd estimate that the old, established order is breaking down; the great organising factors that are marriage/family, religion, work and government are of reduced importance in the modern age.

People are more inclined to plough their own furrow.

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 12:16:15 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

How stereotypical.

It's not just men who suffer nuptialphibia


What's stereotypical is how divorce laws and child custody in divorce haven't evolved with the times and still favor the woman as the poor innocent victim in the situation.

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 12:19:57 PM   
kittinSol


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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 12:23:59 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Yeah, I bet that if I hit the powerball lottery all those 38 year olds who "aren't interested in anyone older than 50" would see me in a, "new light."


You'll get a whole bunch of 22 year old gold-diggers as well searching for that sugardaddy.


Hell yes!  Bring 'em on!

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 12:25:29 PM   
OmegaG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

How stereotypical.

It's not just men who suffer nuptialphibia


What's stereotypical is how divorce laws and child custody in divorce haven't evolved with the times and still favor the woman as the poor innocent victim in the situation.


yeah, I copped out of that entire game.  Didn't get married, kept total custody and paid all the finances.  The fathers liked it that way too.

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RE: What men fear regarding marriage - 6/2/2008 12:34:54 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY


Men can now easily get a piece of ass without having to get married.  Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?




One of the biggest reasons why women arent wanting to get married is, "why buy the whole pig, just for a little sausage"
smirkles


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