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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 4:30:42 PM

MsKittyBlack

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...

< Message edited by MsKittyBlack -- 6/4/2008 4:32:38 PM >

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 4:33:41 PM

BoiJen

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Okay...I'ma GA boi who pissed when they changed the state flag and made it into a place mat looking thing because some people take the confederate flag personally. Last I checked no one living today was alive during the war between the states. It was not civil in any sense of the word. The souhtern states declared themselves a sovereign nation seperate from the union.

The war was NOT about racism...states rights v. federal. Now, go look at the records of racially motivated violence in the time of and just after the war...there were more incidents of racially motivated crimes in the north rather than the south due to the overwhelming migration of poor uneducated black people to the north. And what happened to a great deal of the black individuals who stayed in the south? They worked for their former owners for a place to stay and live and eat.

So why do people think the war between the states was about "slavery" and "racism"? Cuz when the representatives of the northern states sat down and said "how do we get public support of getting our own people to go to war with their own blood?" Somebody in the back shouted "Free the slaves!" and it went from there.

The flag represents so much more than uneducated idea of racism.

And before anybody asks me MY history with the flag and severe racism...I got the shit kicked out of me as a teenager with a black girlfriend...by my racist father. I lived in a neighborhood in PHILADELPHIA that had a cross burnt three blocks from my home in front of another interracial couple.

Racist don't just exist in the south. Don't pin the bad shit on the down home boys who haven't done anything wrong and are just damned proud of having family that stood up for something they believed in...their rights as individuals and as states over the doctrine of the federal government.

boi

And yes I know...I forgot to log out of Her profile again

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 6/4/2008 4:34:26 PM >

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 4:38:52 PM

Gwynvyd

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This was in our local daily free paper today. As I happen to live where the flag is. http://tampabaytimes.fl.newsmemory.com/ 6/4/08 ed. page T5

Message is as clear as the flag is large

Imagine you are a visitor here, rolling into our particular piece of Florida on one of its busiest highways.
Not far off in the distance are the high-rises of downtown Tampa, and the promise of the Pinellas beaches beyond that.
And then, there it is, just off I-75, all 30-feet-by-50-feet of it, rising above the highway and flapping in the wind. Atop a 139-foot flagpole waves a massive Confederate flag.
For sure, it is a piece of our history. It is also, to many, a symbol of redneckism, racism and even hate, flying high for all to see.
“If you were traveling and were looking for a place to stop and get a hotel, I think I’d keep driving for another hundred miles,” says Kevin White, the only black member of the Hillsborough County Commission. “Why not fly the American flag and just be done with it, something that symbolizes everyone?”
It is in White’s district that a group of men who call themselves the Sons of Confederate Veterans erected their massive and divisive flag Tuesday to commemorate Jefferson Davis’ 200th birthday. It was only supposed to be up for the day, a sneak preview of sorts in the same place they are planning a Confederate memorial.
And there is nothing, it appears, that White or anyone else can do to stop it from becoming a dubious local landmark.
Welcome to Tampa Bay. You Are Here.
This is the sharp side of the blade when it comes to freedom of speech and the freedom to be left alone to do what you want with your property, rights that must be fiercely protected even when it involves the plans for that patch of land off the highway.
Get your permits in order, follow the rules, and you can fly a flag that is deeply offensive to a large part of the population.
(And irony of ironies: Just down the road, a businessman named Frank Bates is doing battle with the county over a row of kitschy metal Airstream trailers he planted in the ground on his property along I-4 as art, the vehicles on their ends and aimed skyward. Bates’ “Airstream Ranch” is accused of being illegal signage because of his nearby RV dealership, and also, I am not making this up, illegally parked vehicles, though how anyone would accomplish that sort of parking is a mystery.) But flags are exempt from the sign ordinance.
Supporters will tell you it’s all about preserving heritage. Sorry, but I don’t buy that wide-eyed line, or the idea that well-intentioned people interested only in remembering their history would use a symbol so abrasive, incendiary and hurtful to so many fellow citizens. Or that there is no other way to honor dead soldiers than this.
My favorite reader response to news of the controversial flag on tampabay.com was this suggestion: There are many Confederate graves in your cemeteries that are neglected and decaying. A more honorable thing to do is pay homage to THEM rather than a symbol.
No question, that flag flying high will let visitors know something about this place. It will tell them who, and what, thrives here.

Sue
CARLTON
tbt* COLUMNIST

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 4:43:20 PM

kittinSol

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Here's the thing: if it's only a piece of cloth, as proponents of the confederate flag would have us believe, then... why are they so attached to it? In the interest of peace and harmony and reconciliation... why not make a little concession and show goodwill by leaving it in the museum? Make a new flag, one that expresses unity and renewal and progress.

What's NorthernGent's sigline again... "Tradition: the dead governing the living", or something to that effect. Sometimes, it's liberating to empty your closet of all the old shit - doesn't mean you erase history: simply, that you're ready to move on.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 4:46:29 PM

Gwynvyd

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damn I was confused there for a min.. LOL

I have seen racism in both the North and the South.. one is no better nor worse then the other.

A racist is a racist.. is doesnt matter what side of the Mason/Dixon line the asshole lives on.

Having lived in MI, IL, IN,KY,TN, TX,SC, and FL I have seen them in each of the states. ( Army brats get to travel alot!)

I may personaly believe one thing... someone else may personaly believe something else.. but I guess in something like this it has to go by "General Consensus"

I wish we all had gotten along in the first place and had no need for racism.. or sexism, or any isms. But it is the world we live in.

Gwyn

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 4:50:46 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

And I used to be a writer by profession. Just because *you* say something is common knowledge, doesn't mean that it is. It depends on the subject matter and the medium for which you are writing. If you're writing an English paper on Shakespeare, it's "common knowlede" that he wrote in a certain style, was born at a certain point in the world's history, etc. If you write about him in History class, you BETTER have sources citing his works or you're SOL. And in my former profession, none of that didn't mattered anyway. If you stated the sky was blue, you'd better have at least two sources to back it up or else you're stating an opinion and nothing more

You were a professional writer, but now you're not? Who did you write for? Please provide some links or names. Because, professional writing is not what you have claimed in other posts. You're 29 according to your profile. You said you never finished college, that you were in the military, and so on and so forth in other posts. Wow, you've had quite a life, or is it that you just have a great imagination? It's quite obvious that you're making this up. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Common knowledge citation doesn't depend on the subject. Again, you're trying to pretend you're saying something different than what you actually said.

quote:

What's worse, attacking a source with an "ad hominem" argument or attacking the ad hominem argument with another?

Also, as for googling common knowledge, been there, done that. And as I indicated, it's very subjective.

I didn't make an ad hominem argument, you did. . Again, you're trying to pretend you said something you didn't say. You said you didn't care about "common knowledge", but now you know all about it? Again, you're trying to pretend you meant something else when your words were quite clear.

I'm done with this Smith. If you can't tell the truth and have to make things up to prove your point, than this argument is pointless.

Bye.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 6/4/2008 5:21:25 PM >

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 5:03:53 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Okay...I'ma GA boi who pissed when they changed the state flag and made it into a place mat looking thing because some people take the confederate flag personally. Last I checked no one living today was alive during the war between the states. It was not civil in any sense of the word. The souhtern states declared themselves a sovereign nation seperate from the union.

The war was NOT about racism...states rights v. federal. Now, go look at the records of racially motivated violence in the time of and just after the war...there were more incidents of racially motivated crimes in the north rather than the south due to the overwhelming migration of poor uneducated black people to the north. And what happened to a great deal of the black individuals who stayed in the south? They worked for their former owners for a place to stay and live and eat.

So why do people think the war between the states was about "slavery" and "racism"? Cuz when the representatives of the northern states sat down and said "how do we get public support of getting our own people to go to war with their own blood?" Somebody in the back shouted "Free the slaves!" and it went from there.

The flag represents so much more than uneducated idea of racism.

And before anybody asks me MY history with the flag and severe racism...I got the shit kicked out of me as a teenager with a black girlfriend...by my racist father. I lived in a neighborhood in PHILADELPHIA that had a cross burnt three blocks from my home in front of another interracial couple.

Racist don't just exist in the south. Don't pin the bad shit on the down home boys who haven't done anything wrong and are just damned proud of having family that stood up for something they believed in...their rights as individuals and as states over the doctrine of the federal government.

boi

And yes I know...I forgot to log out of Her profile again

Well, who ever you are, Hi (and I've made the same log on mistake myself).

Just a couple of points...

The Georgia flag had nothing to do with the Civil War or tradition, it was deliberately changed in 1956 to adopt the Stars and Bars as a defiant symbol of racism, and to (as Randy Newman puts it...) keep the N***s down.
Judge Bells' denials that is was only 'nostalgia', and 'Confederate patriotism' in the wake of Brown v. Board, ring hollow on that.
http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/072300/opi_0723000017.shtml

And the state's rights at issue in the Civil War, and even more so in the aftermath of Jim Crow, segregation, et al. most certainly included the so called 'right' to treat members of one race as inferior... the very definition of racism.

Agree with you that the north (or for that matter Europe) has no grounds to congratulate themselves on the matter of racism... their real history is quite shameful, and covering it up by pointing fingers elsewhere is even more so.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 5:11:45 PM

Irishknight

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A good friend of mine had a cross burned in his front yard in Tyler, Texas. The business he wasbuilding was burned to the ground. Guess what? He's a white, anglo saxon protestant veteran. Someone accused him of, believe it or not, worshipping the devil. Nutcases in white sheets tried to burn him out before they ever got the facts. Apparently, as he rebuilt, some of his church members got to know him and it stopped.
I suppose looking at it from that standpoint, many people could find large crosses offensive.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 5:12:53 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

So why do people think the war between the states was about "slavery" and "racism"? Cuz when the representatives of the northern states sat down and said "how do we get public support of getting our own people to go to war with their own blood?" Somebody in the back shouted "Free the slaves!" and it went from there.

I'm skeptical about that, to be honest. Lincoln famously said he would save the Union even if it meant freeing none of the slaves, and the war was half over, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, came, before Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation. I believe the proclamation seriously irked many northerners precisely because it shifted the war's focus from preserving the Union to freeing the slaves.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 6:54:50 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Here's the thing: if it's only a piece of cloth, as proponents of the confederate flag would have us believe, then... why are they so attached to it? In the interest of peace and harmony and reconciliation... why not make a little concession and show goodwill by leaving it in the museum? Make a new flag, one that expresses unity and renewal and progress.

What's NorthernGent's sigline again... "Tradition: the dead governing the living", or something to that effect. Sometimes, it's liberating to empty your closet of all the old shit - doesn't mean you erase history: simply, that you're ready to move on.

Now now now....don't you go throwin' logic into this. In this thread, you just brought a nuke to a knife fight. In other words, your logic is infallable and undeniable and yet they will STILL say "but but but....it's only our heritage we're trying to promote and be proud of!"

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 6:57:55 PM

kittinSol

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 7:01:18 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
You were a professional writer, but now you're not? Who did you write for? Please provide some links or names. Because, professional writing is not what you have claimed in other posts. You're 29 according to your profile. You said you never finished college, that you were in the military, and so on and so forth in other posts. Wow, you've had quite a life, or is it that you just have a great imagination? It's quite obvious that you're making this up. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Common knowledge citation doesn't depend on the subject. Again, you're trying to pretend you're saying something different than what you actually said.

Ohhh how cute. Call me a liar as though I'll care what you think. Truth is, there are many examples of my writings posted online but, guess what, it includes my real name. And it's rather presumptuous of you to assume I'd readily hand that over to someone (a lot of someones since this is a public forum) just to "prove it" to you. You can be a writer AND serve in the military, you don't even need a college degree to do it, you just type on the keyboard, words come out, and someone publishes them. It's like magic!

Gee....I picked an innocuous, common screen name to......out myself to the entire world? Yeah...that's it. Nice try. On a website where many profiles say "I won't post a pic for privacy reasons" and you expect me to just hand over my full name. LoL. That's funny. Would you like my social security number while we're at it? Driver's license number perhaps? How about google map directions to my address?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I didn't make an ad hominem argument, you did. . Again, you're trying to pretend you said something you didn't say. You said you didn't care about "common knowledge", but now you know all about it? Again, you're trying to pretend you meant something else when your words were quite clear.

Whatever. If you can't comprehend my words, that's your fault, not mine. I speak quite clearly and I say exactly what is on my mind, as many here, including mods, can attest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I'm done with this Smith. If you can't tell the truth and have to make things up to prove your point, than this argument is pointless.

I haven't made anything up, but I do agree it's time for you to go. I'd say I was making you look like a fool, but honestly, I can see you don't need me for that.

< Message edited by Smith117 -- 6/4/2008 7:07:28 PM >

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 7:04:45 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 7:09:37 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

To no-one in particular,
Have you ever noticed that people who claim to be "liberal" and,..."open-minded" after questioning turn out to be neither?

I see a lot of pot, kettle, black on these boards, popeye.
That is what makes a lot of this entertaining.
Don't ever tell the "liberal" and "open-minded" that though!

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 7:20:48 PM

MissSCD

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On the other side of the coin, I had a customer walk into our store with an American Flag shirt on. The shirt was old and tattered. When she walked in, I did not see who it was. The customer in front of me just stared as well.
You are not supposed to wear the American Flag. It is not supposed to be tattered. It is not supposed to get wet. It is not supposed to fly at night unless it has a light underneath it.
So what is my point? Nothing really. She turned out to be one of my friends, and I have to wait on you regardless of how you look.
I have been born and raised in the South. I hate the Confederate flag. I am glad I am not in Tampa.

Regards, MissSCD

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 7:29:18 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

damn I was confused there for a min.. LOL

I have seen racism in both the North and the South.. one is no better nor worse then the other.

A racist is a racist.. is doesnt matter what side of the Mason/Dixon line the asshole lives on.

Having lived in MI, IL, IN,KY,TN, TX,SC, and FL I have seen them in each of the states. ( Army brats get to travel alot!)

I may personaly believe one thing... someone else may personaly believe something else.. but I guess in something like this it has to go by "General Consensus"

I wish we all had gotten along in the first place and had no need for racism.. or sexism, or any isms. But it is the world we live in.

Gwyn

Gwyn, that's true, there's racists in Boston too and they don't need the Confederate flag to do it either.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 7:46:23 PM

cyberdude611

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They had a meeting today of the County Commission and lawyers for the county say there is no legal option. The flag is on private property and is in accordance with zoning laws. And it is protected by the US Constitution.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 7:54:44 PM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
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quote:

Ohhh how cute. Call me a liar as though I'll care what you think. Truth is, there are many examples of my writings posted online but, guess what, it includes my real name. And it's rather presumptuous of you to assume I'd readily hand that over to someone (a lot of someones since this is a public forum) just to "prove it" to you.

I call you a liar because you make claims that are not true. You claimed to be a soldier, a businessman, and a professional writer in your posts. If You also said you never finished college. I think you're lying.

As for your challenge....My name is Larry. I was born July 30, 1975 in Charleston, WV. I grew up in Hot Springs, Arkansas. I live there now. I went to school at the University of Arkansas and Henderson State University. I have a BA in history, but I won't tell you which school or the year (it was in the 90's). I have held a lot of jobs. My last job was a document analyst. I was laid off, and I am officially unemployed.

I have my own savings, and I inherited a substantial amount from my grandmother in 2006. I have nothing to worry about. I'm not bragging, and I never have done so here.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 8:02:12 PM

Archer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Well, who ever you are, Hi (and I've made the same log on mistake myself).

Just a couple of points...

The Georgia flag had nothing to do with the Civil War or tradition, it was deliberately changed in 1956 to adopt the Stars and Bars as a defiant symbol of racism, and to (as Randy Newman puts it...) keep the N***s down.
Judge Bells' denials that is was only 'nostalgia', and 'Confederate patriotism' in the wake of Brown v. Board, ring hollow on that.
http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/072300/opi_0723000017.shtml

And the state's rights at issue in the Civil War, and even more so in the aftermath of Jim Crow, segregation, et al. most certainly included the so called 'right' to treat members of one race as inferior... the very definition of racism.

Agree with you that the north (or for that matter Europe) has no grounds to congratulate themselves on the matter of racism... their real history is quite shameful, and covering it up by pointing fingers elsewhere is even more so.

Small detail that is a pet peeve of mine and a few other people
The Red background Blue diagonal cross with stars is "The Battelflag" It is not the Stars and Bars.
The Stars and Bars that flew over the CSA as a national flag looks very much like the current flag of GA.

Stars and Bars an the Confederate Battle Flag side by side. http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Confederate_Flag.htm

Except they make the same mistake most folks make the orginal Battle Flag was much closer to square rather than being 3X 5 ratio.

Just thought you might appreciate being a bit more accurate in your names for the flags.

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RE: Tampa to erect a huge Confederate flag - 6/4/2008 8:03:55 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Ohhh how cute. Call me a liar as though I'll care what you think. Truth is, there are many examples of my writings posted online but, guess what, it includes my real name. And it's rather presumptuous of you to assume I'd readily hand that over to someone (a lot of someones since this is a public forum) just to "prove it" to you.

I call you a liar because you make claims that are not true. You claimed to be a soldier, a businessman, and a professional writer in your posts. If You also said you never finished college. I think you're lying.

As for your challenge....My name is Larry. I was born July 30, 1975 in Charleston, WV. I grew up in Hot Springs, Arkansas. I live there now. I went to school at the University of Arkansas and Henderson State University. I have a BA in history, but I won't tell you which school or the year (it was in the 90's). I have held a lot of jobs. My last job was a document analyst. I was laid off, and I am officially unemployed.

I have my own savings, and I inherited a substantial amount from my grandmother in 2006. I have nothing to worry about. I'm not bragging, and I never have done so here.

Larry? you forgot to give us your phone number, address and social security numbers?

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