Natural Slavery

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SirKaton -> Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:03:58 PM)
In reading thru the "Submissive vs. Slave" thread, I decided to do a little bit of reading. I know many in BDSM use D/s and M/s interchangeably, but after digesting a few articles, sites and even examining personal experiences, I believe that really isn't accurate. Case in point, my Beloved Kandee is a natural submissive. Our bond is unlike anything else I have had and I have seen her act without thought or provocation in her submission to me. I've recently also begun training another "sub"-I did not seek her nor did she seek me. Thru our interactions, however, it became obvious that it was something natural, but findamentally different than the standard that had been set before her. The whole process has been quite unlike any other situation of this type and I find that she responds to me not as a submissive would where there was a cogent exchange of power, but really like a slave in her desire to transfer her "self" to me in its entirety. It was an epiphany of sorts to make that distinction-both women respond in these roles as naturally as they breathe, so I ask others in their experiences, does anyone else feel that such a thing as "natural slavery" exists?

GabrielleSlave -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:14:31 PM)
In a word yes. However, natural submission also exists and the two are just as valid as eachother. My opinion on the differences between sub and slave are not really important here, though i strongly feel that there are major differences. What makes a person a natural anything? Something deep within them that has been there since before birth. In the case of a slave, it takes a skillful Master to recognise and develop that which is offered and take it beyond mere submission, to the place that slave was truly put on earth to be. Oh...i'm tired and rambling... sorry, i hope i made some kind of sense.. [:)] Gabrielle x

SirKaton -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:18:28 PM)
Thank you luv. It's has been a real "a ha!" moment for me in that understanding and explains a lot in the stark difference of my interactions between the women. But by all means GS, share the differences from your POV/experience. That is why we are here, is it not?

GabrielleSlave -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:22:47 PM)
OK then, this is what i have just sent to a Dom friend of mine who asked me the same question... i fully expect others to have different opinions....... So, the question of slave vs sub. As I mentioned before, this is not an argument that anyone will ever win, or find a definitive answer to; as everyone You would ask, will have a different point of view. These views are equally valid, but possibly wildly different from eachother, so You will have to read as many as You can and make Your own mind up. There is no right and wrong and I am sure You already have Your own opinion… This is my opinion only… In my argument, I shall use ‘her’ for the sub/slave and Him for the Dom, as it is pertinent to me… For me, the difference is a subtle one; both are submissive, both enjoy being dominated. A sub gives permission to her Dom (rather than Master), whether verbally or otherwise before each scene, or play session. It is likely that the sub has limits and maybe several of them. She uses them almost to extend control over her submission and her Dom understands and respects them. He will not cross those lines without prior agreement and negotiation. If they are in a relationship, she may well bow down to His decision making as it is natural for her to need that validation and leadership. There may well be rules she is expected to try to keep to, but her submission is a gift and not His right and so the balance of power is perhaps weighted in her favour. A slave is different in the sense that her submission is not just that; it is obedience. At the beginning of a Master/slave relationship she will gift her submission to her Master (rather than Dom). After that it belongs to Him and He has the right to do with it as He wishes. In the case of a new slave (ie me) she will also bring to Him her limits. The difference from subs here, is that she hands over her limits to her Master. If He is a caring and responsible Master, He will ensure that He explores and stretches His slave’s limits to such an extent that they no longer exist. A slave should have no limits and nothing that she will not do for her Master. She trusts her Master to look after her interests and to improve her for His pleasure in a safe and sane way. A slave needs to be owned, as property by her Master and needs His protection and approval at all times whether or not she is with Him and if given tasks by Him to perform in His absence will carry them out with joy in her heart knowing that it will please Him. She will feel like that even if the tasks are hard, or challenging to her. Many people scoff at the idea of a slave heart as much as they scorn the ‘one twue way’ of being in this life. However, I will say that I do have a slave heart and it will be there whether or not Master chooses to release me or eventually marry me. (edited: as fonts were different)

Viridana -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:30:26 PM)
Hmmmm... don't most subs (and doms) claim they're "naturally whatevertheyare "? At least I've never come across a sub who represents themself as "unnaturally submissive"... or "synthetic or artificial submissive". To me the term "natural" sounds awfully like the popular word "twue".

Suleiman -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:35:26 PM)
I dunno. Personally, I sort of always thought of myself as being a natural born opinionated jackass. It took years of hard work for me to learn how to be dominant.

GabrielleSlave -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:37:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Viridana To me the term "natural" sounds awfully like the popular word "twue". Can't agree with you there sorry. Being true to yourself and being what you are naturally as opposed to trying to be something you are not has nothing to do with the fabled One Twue Way....... Gabrielle x

SirKaton -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:38:48 PM)
GS, when did you first recognize you had a "slave heart" and not just a submissive one?

celticlord2112 -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:43:04 PM)
quote: The whole process has been quite unlike any other situation of this type and I find that she responds to me not as a submissive would where there was a cogent exchange of power, but really like a slave in her desire to transfer her "self" to me in its entirety. Wow, you mean two different women express their submission to you differently?[sm=whoa.gif]

RCdc -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:43:24 PM)
I don't believe in the term 'natural submissive'. I think it is misleading and also places a kind of hieracy of submission. But then I do not believe that someone is 'a' submissive. I do however, believe that some people are submissive and have submission within them and that at times, there is be someone come along in ones life and the urge to submit comes from within and is a natural occurance that you can embrace. In other words, I had no choice but to submit to Darcy, anymore than I have no choice but to blink. the.dark.

SirKaton -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:45:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Viridana Hmmmm... don't most subs (and doms) claim they're "naturally whatevertheyare "? At least I've never come across a sub who represents themself as "unnaturally submissive"... or "synthetic or artificial submissive". To me the term "natural" sounds awfully like the popular word "twue". I don't necessarily agree. I know there are both Dom/mes and submissives that have "grown" into their roles thru their experiences. I've mentored both over the years and they are a bit different than the others (those who are "naturals") who have always been like that for as long as they can remember, but never had the words to wrap their experiences around.

GabrielleSlave -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:48:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirKaton GS, when did you first recognize you had a "slave heart" and not just a submissive one? When i came across BornSlaves.com The writings there spoke to me in a way i found deeply profound; i felt like i was remembering something long forgotten... i know that sounds a little barmy, but that's how my feelings came into some kind of focus... Rather like Your epiphany moment!

SirKaton -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:50:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: The whole process has been quite unlike any other situation of this type and I find that she responds to me not as a submissive would where there was a cogent exchange of power, but really like a slave in her desire to transfer her "self" to me in its entirety. Wow, you mean two different women express their submission to you differently?[sm=whoa.gif] It has less to do with their expression as it has to do with their mindset. Of course they will express their submission "differently", but this convo comes from the (my) thinking that the terms were interchangable. I believe there are those who are naturally of the D/s mind, I wonder if the same can be said about those who fall on the M/s side of the coin.

SirKaton -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 12:54:53 PM)
DATD, well said. I always enjoy your contributions here. Question to you: is there any accounting for those who might be submissive by virtue of experiences compared to those who might have simply always had that response becasue that is the way they simple "are"? I never thought of it being a hierarchy other than an acknowledgement that people arrive to this place different ways.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 1:04:22 PM)
quote: It has less to do with their expression as it has to do with their mindset. Of course they will express their submission "differently", but this convo comes from the (my) thinking that the terms were interchangable. I believe there are those who are naturally of the D/s mind, I wonder if the same can be said about those who fall on the M/s side of the coin. That's easy to answer: D/s and M/s are just different nuances of the same power dynamic. One man's slave is another man's submissive, one woman's dominant is another woman's master, and on, and on, and on, and on...... The labels don't mean squat.

RCdc -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 1:06:57 PM)
Edit because I noticed you had edited whilst I was posting...[:)] It is all subjective and individual relationship. As far as my past and life, submission is not something I 'learnt'. My submission to Darcy was something I can't control. However, this isn't my first BDSM relationship and as such, I can honestly say that my submission previously was something totally different and my reactions were unique to that relationship. I therefore do not believe that natural submission exists purely to submissives who have been submissive 'all their lives' I believe that this so-named 'natural submission' can occur to those who have - up until that moment - only learnt the tools of submission. I do believe it is important not to mix up the attributes and abilities of 'a submissive' with submission. Like any lock can be broken open, or picked or lossened, but the reality is any lock just needs the right key to open it. the.dark.

SirKaton -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 1:13:52 PM)
I won't disagree with you about the nuances, but labels are at times a necessary evil we all must contend with.

Viridana -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 1:39:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GabrielleSlave Can't agree with you there sorry. Being true to yourself and being what you are naturally as opposed to trying to be something you are not has nothing to do with the fabled One Twue Way....... People use the word "twue" in more senses than just the "one twue way". All you've got to do is go on the other side and look over a few personals to see that, i.e. "I'm a twue submissive". That's just the thing.. the word "twue" is subjected to one's personal view, one "twue" way for one, is not the one "twue" way for another who chooses to use the same word. Same with the word "natural". It's subjected to very personal interpretation and personal value. As well.. we are all human beings who gather experience and practice. I haven't ridden a bicycle in 12 years, but I can do it very "truthfully and naturally" if I'd sit one one right now. But at the age of five I had to struggle to learn. We all have to learn, hit bumps and put effort in things, even though it comes to us naturally, we just put a lot less effort, hit fewer bumps and need to learn less than with harder tasks. All human beings are submissive. Even the domlyest dom doms are submissive, i.e. to one's country's laws for instance, ones boss, ones mother in childhood etc. That's something we do from early childhood and do very naturally... because we have naturally the distinction betweeen right and wrong. So by your definition Mr. Domly dom is also a "natural submissive" quote: At the beginning of a Master/slave relationship she will gift her submission to her Master (rather than Dom). One question, If it's such a "natural submission"... why is it a gift then? I poop very naturally and truthfully to myself each and every day. It's the most natural thing I do. Am I giving my toilet a gift then?

MadRabbit -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 2:00:46 PM)
Some people, through childhood, experiences, personality, a magic ring in a Cracker Jack box, whatever, are better inclined to fall the rule and authority of another without resistance or struggle. Some people who don't have the (Insert childhood, experiences, personality, magic ring in a Cracker Jack box, whatever here) and are more accustomed to independance have a harder time falling the rule and authority of another without resistance or struggle. That's really all that "natural submission and slavery" stuff boils down to for me. Edied to Add : If you have someone who has spent years making their own choices and doing things without restriction, it's going to be a little bit of a bumpy ride in the transition to letting someone else make choices for you and being restricted from doing things.

MadRabbit -> RE: Natural Slavery (6/4/2008 2:24:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Viridana All human beings are submissive. Even the domlyest dom doms are submissive, i.e. to one's country's laws for instance, ones boss, ones mother in childhood etc. That's something we do from early childhood and do very naturally... because we have naturally the distinction betweeen right and wrong. So by your definition Mr. Domly dom is also a "natural submissive" I submit in many contexts of life to the police, government, bosses, mentors, parent figures. While these kind of comparisions might prove to be somewhat useful analogies, submission as a neccesity of life and submission as a consentual choice in an interpersonal relationship are not synonmous. I might submit to the rules of a mentor to gain a new skill or submit to a boss to keep a job, but these are choices of circumstance where I am agreeing to terms that I don't particularly like in order to acquire positive benefits. This is a far cry from submitting in a relationship because it brings enjoyment and personal fulfillment. It's a line of reasoning similar to the "Suck one cock and your gay" logic.

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