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RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 11:16:26 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You don't really seem to understand, the NYT article was about minorities feeling the system was open to them. Is something like that really beyond your grasp?

Two things are at play: (1) A minority candidate won the nomination fair and square --- showing that a minority candidate can achieve something never done before. (2) The minority candidate is also the best candidate; young, brilliant, precocious, and inclusive.

Its a combination of opportunity and preparedness.

As GWB would say, "its awesome."

Note: I don't support Obama because of his race --- I support his message, platform, and tactics --- but I also understand the larger historical significance of his primary victory.

No one owes Obama a vote to further race relations or to rectify past inequalities ---- he only deserves your vote if you think he's the best candidate.


Cloudboy, are you saying that the system "wasn't" open to them under Bush, Clinton or Carter?

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 11:32:49 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You don't really seem to understand, the NYT article was about minorities feeling the system was open to them. Is something like that really beyond your grasp?

Two things are at play: (1) A minority candidate won the nomination fair and square --- showing that a minority candidate can achieve something never done before. (2) The minority candidate is also the best candidate; young, brilliant, precious, and inclusive.

Its a combination of opportunity and preparedness.

As GWB would say, "its awesome."

Stipulating that all you say is true, even the "its awesome" part. That would be hijacking the subject of the thread - "I'm voting for Obama" and a reason which as stated; "I am going to vote for Obama because it's time we get a person of color into that highest of offices." The NY Times article notwithstanding, was sited a source of information; irrelevant to the topic heading or the original post.

The flaw of the argument is that if every voter held the same position, not only would Senator Obama not have a chance to win the election, he wouldn't have come close to the nomination. Statistically speaking Senator Clinton, white, and a woman, holds the majority both on gender and race.

cloudboy, I agree more than you know, for reasons not necessary to document, with your fundamental position that "a minority can achieve...". I can't recall anytime in my life when I didn't think that and act upon it. However any result or conclusion that requires 'race-based' reasoning are words that indicate at the core - the speaker does not believe in the very equality he/she gives sets as a goal. At that point it is just lip service, or rationalization for some form of guilt based upon race.

I envy anyone who has a reason to vote FOR anyone; even if I see that reason to be a form of racism. The bottom line is representing that the reason is, as stated, race based is racist; regardless of the color of the candidate or the voter.

No one would like more than me to be able to provide a litany of reasons and issues supporting a vote for Senator Obama. I'll represent I did more searching on his behalf than I did regarding Senator McCain, because Senator McCain's history is, or at least was, better documented. The other reason was there are major and extreme reasons why I can never represent 'FOR' support for Senator McCain. I don't even see him positively as a 'anti-Obama' option. Throughout the process however race was not considered, and will never for me be a consideration as a reason to support, or be against, anyone.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 6/5/2008 12:32:17 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 12:10:02 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		interesting....

i have been wondering, if the votes that were cast for obama, simply because he is black, and the votes cast for hillary, simply because she is female, were taken out of the count, who would be the nominee?......its sad that there is no better reason for so many to choose to vote for someone than the color of their skin or what they have between their legs.....

too bad we dont have a candidate that makes us want to vote for them because of what is between their ears....

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 12:19:12 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne


too bad we dont have a candidate that makes us want to vote for them because of what is between their ears....


...so what you're saying is that you're prejudiced against the mentally challenged?

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 12:19:32 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

interesting....

i have been wondering, if the votes that were cast for obama, simply because he is black, and the votes cast for hillary, simply because she is female, were taken out of the count, who would be the nominee?......its sad that there is no better reason for so many to choose to vote for someone than the color of their skin or what they have between their legs.....

too bad we dont have a candidate that makes us want to vote for them because of what is between their ears....

I've voted repeatedly for Senator Obama because of his intelligence. First as state senator from Hyde Park ( I missed getting to re-elect him a couple of times since I moved out of his district) then I voted for him over a number of highly qualified other Democrats in the US Senate primary and then had the distinct pleasure, along with better than 2/3rds the voters, of voting to elect him to the US Senate over Keyes* then I and many others voted for him because of things other than the color of his skin in the primaries.


*Alan Keyes was also black and it did not result in a split of the black vote no matter how much the state GOP had hoped it would.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 12:23:39 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I'm actually a little surprised that people have already made this decision considering we don't know who the two choices are for VP. I've done my research on the two probable nominees but their choices over the next few weeks/months will weigh in my final decision. There are things that I like about both candidates and things I don't like about both candidates. I have reasons to vote for both of them and I have reasons to vote against both of them. Ultimately, my personal values and issues will carry the most weight in my decision, but what I think is best for this country will also get due consideration. I want to know what they are going to do for this country.. and, color me a cynic, I want to know exactly how they're going to do it. I don't expect perfection so I don't seek it in a candidate but childish antics are a HUGE turn-off with me, so if someone seeks my vote, they'd better, at least, behave as a mature adult. I think they are both capable of that .. but we'll see.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 12:27:06 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

interesting....

i have been wondering, if the votes that were cast for obama, simply because he is black, and the votes cast for hillary, simply because she is female, were taken out of the count, who would be the nominee?......its sad that there is no better reason for so many to choose to vote for someone than the color of their skin or what they have between their legs.....

too bad we dont have a candidate that makes us want to vote for them because of what is between their ears....


There was a book called "The selling of a president, 1960"  i do not know if it is still even in print, but the claim was that Kennedy took some edge over Nixon because Nixon tended to sweat under TV lights and did not look very good on camera.  It is always amazing what might sway a voter.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 12:49:22 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne


too bad we dont have a candidate that makes us want to vote for them because of what is between their ears....


...so what you're saying is that you're prejudiced against the mentally challenged?


dammit busted.....

i did vote for obama in the primary, but it was more a vote against hillary than for him.  he has til november to make me want to vote for him again, but if he chooses her as a running mate, i cant think of one thing he could say that would get my vote.

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 12:53:25 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam


There was a book called "The selling of a president, 1960"  i do not know if it is still even in print, but the claim was that Kennedy took some edge over Nixon because Nixon tended to sweat under TV lights and did not look very good on camera.  It is always amazing what might sway a voter.


i have seen several things on tv that said because nixon looked so pale and sweaty  on their televised debate, and kennedy tan and healthy, that kennedy got votes based just on appearances.  but hell, we all judge folks on appearances daily i reckon, so its not a surprise.

if i recall, it was because folks interpreted the unhealthy look and sweating as a sign of lying or being uncomfortable, while kennedy seemed totally at ease......maybe nixon was having a premonition of what was ahead for him.....who knows.

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 12:57:40 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I'm definitely voting democrat-enough is enough..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GRR_n_yQGA


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 12:59:53 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I've voted repeatedly for Senator Obama because of his intelligence. First as state senator from Hyde Park ( I missed getting to re-elect him a couple of times since I moved out of his district) then I voted for him over a number of highly qualified other Democrats in the US Senate primary and then had the distinct pleasure, along with better than 2/3rds the voters, of voting to elect him to the US Senate over Keyes* then I and many others voted for him because of things other than the color of his skin in the primaries.


*Alan Keyes was also black and it did not result in a split of the black vote no matter how much the state GOP had hoped it would.


Then you know better than most about how those campaigns, and Senator Obama's home and improvements were funded; Tony Rezko. Another "close friend" problem - as of yesterday, the 'convicted' kind.

Admittedly money laundering, fraud, and especially bribery aren't big issues in Illinois, especially Chicago in particular. I'm sure, now that Rezko is convicted he'll cut a deal and provide enough to that his Republican counterparts, Bob Kjellander and Bill Cellini, come to be know under the National spotlight; however they both contributed to the Mitt Romney campaign and not Senator McCain. So, for now, adding the Rezko conviction to the Senator's other renowned friendships may be considered a trend and play well outside the State. 

quote:

Obama's name came up only peripherally during the trial as a recipient of campaign donations generated by Rezko for his U.S. Senate race in 2004.

The Syrian-born property developer and entrepreneur had a close friendship with Obama, and the ties with Rezko, 52, created some sparks in the Democratic primary contest. Rezko's role could resurface in the November contest against Republican Senator John McCain.

Critics said Obama's relationship with Chicago powerbrokers, including Rezko, and his ties to Rev. Jeremiah Wright, his controversial former pastor, raised questions about his judgment and credibility.

Rezko was found guilty of 12 counts of mail and wire fraud, two of attempted bribery and two of money laundering. The jury found him not guilty of three counts of wire fraud, one of attempted extortion and four of attempted bribery.

Prosecutors focused on Rezko's influence in the administration of Illinois' Democratic Governor Rod Blagojevich, eliciting testimony that Rezko demanded campaign contributions and bribes in exchange for jobs or state contracts. The defense presented no witnesses.

Some of those suspect campaign contributions went for Obama's senate run and his presidential campaign has given away about $250,000 in donations it can trace to Rezko.
Source: http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=5b0ad792-6bf1-4838-9c59-0dabef56ba37 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 1:19:09 PM   
uniquecouple2123


Posts: 19
Joined: 5/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam


There was a book called "The selling of a president, 1960"  i do not know if it is still even in print, but the claim was that Kennedy took some edge over Nixon because Nixon tended to sweat under TV lights and did not look very good on camera.  It is always amazing what might sway a voter.


i have seen several things on tv that said because nixon looked so pale and sweaty  on their televised debate, and kennedy tan and healthy, that kennedy got votes based just on appearances.  but hell, we all judge folks on appearances daily i reckon, so its not a surprise.

if i recall, it was because folks interpreted the unhealthy look and sweating as a sign of lying or being uncomfortable, while kennedy seemed totally at ease......maybe nixon was having a premonition of what was ahead for him.....who knows.


Also, it was the first ever televised presidential debate and Nixon decided to pass on wearing makeup that night.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 2:07:59 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:


Stipulating that all you say is true, even the "its awesome" part. That would be hijacking the subject of the thread - "I'm voting for Obama" and a reason which as stated; "I am going to vote for Obama because it's time we get a person of color into that highest of offices


That is his perogative. Although his statement looks racially motivated, I think you could also interpret it as wanting to make a historical break from the past.



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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 2:11:30 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Then you know better than most about how those campaigns, and Senator Obama's home and improvements were funded; Tony Rezko. Another "close friend" problem - as of yesterday, the 'convicted' kind.

No. Rezko did donate to his campaigns but was not a major and definitely not the sole funder of those campaigns.

With a Republican prosecutor who likes going after politicians doing the prosecuting not a single charge has come out against Senator Obama. The only issue is the purchase of part of a lot as a yard for his home. A lot of people have looked for a quid pro quo and not found anything.

Governor Blagovich may soon find himself under indictment due to Rezko but Senator Obama won't.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 2:13:22 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

interesting....

i have been wondering, if the votes that were cast for obama, simply because he is black, and the votes cast for hillary, simply because she is female, were taken out of the count, who would be the nominee?......its sad that there is no better reason for so many to choose to vote for someone than the color of their skin or what they have between their legs.....

too bad we dont have a candidate that makes us want to vote for them because of what is between their ears....


There was a book called "The selling of a president, 1960"  i do not know if it is still even in print, but the claim was that Kennedy took some edge over Nixon because Nixon tended to sweat under TV lights and did not look very good on camera.  It is always amazing what might sway a voter.

There's been a number of articles and books about that debate. One astonishing detail is that people who only listened to the deabte on radio thought Nixon won while those who watched it on TV tended to favor JFK.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 4:31:12 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
...I think you could also interpret it as wanting to make a historical break from the past.


Yes, this is why I also mention the possibility of a woman as VP. I'd just like to see it happen. So now I am engaging in reverse racism and reverse sexism, I guess.




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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 4:48:28 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


quote:


Stipulating that all you say is true, even the "its awesome" part. That would be hijacking the subject of the thread - "I'm voting for Obama" and a reason which as stated; "I am going to vote for Obama because it's time we get a person of color into that highest of offices


That is his perogative. Although his statement looks racially motivated, I think you could also interpret it as wanting to make a historical break from the past.

 
Proof once again that it is difficult to get through the day without a rationalization; I'm glad that you agree that it "looks racially motivated". 
 
It would be a historical break to elect Senator McCain too based upon his POW status and the age he would be when he first takes takes office. Nobody's been foolish enough to give that as a reason in lieu of race, but I guess you could rationalize that position similarly.
 
There is no qualifier saying that vote for Senator Obama is conditional on the gender of the VP. Identifying it now as essential either speaks to the weakness of the support or is a nice way to spin away from essence of the original thought. 

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 4:52:10 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Taking a break from "business as usual" is the only real reason I support Obama.

It has nothing to do with anything else. It will be really interesting to show how many bigots from the "good old boy club" show thier true colors during the race. It's going to be almost as fun as "whack a mole"

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 6:15:16 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline 		i'll be voting for Obama even if he chooses a dead man as his running mate.
 
i cannot vote for McCain, for a variety of reaons, so Obama is the 'default'.
 
While i do enjoy the prospect of voting for an African-American for president, i must admit, there hasn't been an election cycle since i've been old enough to vote in which i didn't feel i had to choose between the lesser of two evils.
 
We get such over-all crappy choices when it comes time to vote for president in this country.  Was it always like this?  Did we  ever have great candidates and presidents?  What happened to change that?
 
pinksugarsub

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: I'm Voting for Obama - 6/5/2008 6:26:43 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		We have always gotten pretty much the government we deserve.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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