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RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/6/2008 4:54:20 PM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline
quote:

At 19 I was living away from home, putting myself through university, enslaved, successfull .. 5 years later ... i still know that was a good choice at 19 my mother was married and had a baby on the way ... 42 years later she still sees that as the right choice and is still in love with the man she chose for herself at 19 at 19 the law saod I could vote, marry, drive, have children of my own, drink, buy a house, ... but you would chave called me a child ...hmmm


At 19 I had purchased a house (by Foxworthies definition, anyway) was married with three children and the last one on the way.

I encouraged my children to make better choices, most in regards to the ability to stay in school and therefore be less impoverished - but i do not regret those choices. i have the most wonderful children in the world, as a result of them.

I do routinely refer to my 20 and 21 year old sons as 'the teenagers', but it is mother backlash. It is the same thing that makes me struggle to leave them alone when they walk behind me, where i can't watch them, at the mall.

In spite of mother instincts, i do respect their choices. I would have prefered my youngest finish college BEFORE becoming a Marine - but, he really is an adult, it is his choice to make.

If they tell me they have made a choice to live a kinky lifestyle, they will have my support. I will suggest where they can go to meet real people and learn and be exposed. I will let them know if they wonder into 'TMI for the Mom in the room' territory. They are adults, other than the glaring lack of grandchildren, their sex life really is not my buisness.

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(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/6/2008 8:52:01 PM   
MrRandallspe


Posts: 110
Joined: 1/1/2008
Status: offline 		With many young adults maturing differently , I am not surprised to hear that many are active in this now. Many know from a much younger age that they are either submissive or more dominant than others. I found that I loved to spank females when I was just 17 and I have never looked back.

(in reply to tsatske)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/6/2008 9:03:46 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Eh, I kind of agree with the 21 age limit imposed by a few groups around here... I think. On the one hand, I know some awesome 18 year olds who would really benefit from the group.. but I also know a few I wouldn't want there... too much drama and excitability. I agree that in a perfect world, we'd be able to approve people on a case by case kind of thing, but then you get into playing favorites, disgruntled teenagers, and the possiblity of approving older folks on a case by case thing as well... a whole nother  can of worms.

As far as sex with 18 y/o, it might not be the most ethical thing an older guy could do, but it's certainly not illegal. Painting them as a pedophile brings in that whole legality thing, which I'll leave to the courts for now, as I've had too much rum to deal with that crap at the moment.

I see myself as mature... sometimes I suppose, altho I get a little happy on these forums sometimes. I've been in the Army, I run two businesses, even though one is only like 4 months out of the year... I have my own place, and I'm putting myself through school. I know thirty year olds that can't do that- and a 15 year old who has already bought a new car through his business... dam kids!

I guess I'm wishywashy on this whole subject...


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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/6/2008 9:15:52 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:
At what age should young people be welcomed to conventions, seminars, classes, public information meet and greets, dungeons, parties, demos? is it different for different events?

All ages. (Oooops....rephrase...all ages above consent :)  )

The thing that really got me to start the thread was, someone on the local list suggested a reasonable standard age limit - maybe 21 or 22 - with exceptions made for anyone over 18 but under the age limit who was willing to jump through several 'hoops' - like accepting being assigned a mentor, attending a certain number of munches and classes before being allowed at a party or dungeon event, ect.
What do you think?

I think you should do what makes you smile.  Every day.


< Message edited by Griswold -- 6/6/2008 9:17:05 PM >

(in reply to tsatske)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/6/2008 9:59:20 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Why not simply ignore the drauma trauma's and refuse to interact with them, then problem mostly solved. There's drauma at any age level. I know some 50 year old domina's in the local scene that I think are catty back stabbing and manipulative, so it's not limited to under 21'ers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

but I also know a few I wouldn't want there... too much drama and excitability.

(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 8:16:00 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro66babycak
It does work well where I am.  My daughter is already at that age, it is not a matter of respect it is a matter of allowing the child to grow up and decide what she wants to become before someone tries to mold them into what he or she wants them to become, namely slaves or subs.

At the age of 19 most children do not yet know what they want out of life. I am not talking about the few that are like you. (1) I  am also not taking about the ones that join the military ( they grow up out of necessity to survive once they do join)I am talking about the majority of teenagers that are not  mature enough to be thrust out into the world and abused by a lifestyle that is full of fakes and users. (2) Real  Masters/Dominants use common sense and intuition when choosing subs.  Most Real  Dominants over the age of 50 do not choose children .

Of course your mother said that (3)... anytime there is a child involved a good mother will protect that child to her own death. I am sure your mother is the same way. If she saw that you were being used or abused by some horny old man don't you think she would do what she had to do to protect you? (4)

Would you do any less for your own children? (5)

Oh and yes I would have thought of you as a child. I wouldn't have called you a child but even though I don't know you if I saw someone harming you I would take some kind of action to help you as if you were my child. (6)

This is also my opinion


1) "the few like me" ... are firstly not so few - most of the others are just bored unto death with being dismissed as children by people like you. I was treated as a young adult right through my teens and had the decisions I made respected by my parents, I was raised as an adult and not raised as a child. Maybe if more people took that view, there would be less childish people in their earliy 20s. Magically when I left home (on my 19th birthday) I was used to thinking and behaving and being responsible just like an adult ... so unlike all the people around me, I wasn'rt imploding because I was having to make my own judgements and decisions for the first time .... crazy ... almost like my parents planned it that way

2) "full of fakes and users" ... sorry to burst your bubble ... but your "child" is probably far safer attending a munch at the age of 19 .. than they are getting drunk in some bar looking for thrills. The entire point of opening munches up to young people is so that they can join the lifestyle and participate in the scene surrounded by other responsible people. Now I personally do not like the mentoring model proposed by some ... but it is far better than the model you have of effectively excluding them from the lifestyle. Also, the sooner people stop thinking of the lifetsyle as a place where you are 100% certainly going to get mugged, raped, duped, killed, eaten, or whatever ... the sooner newbies will not skulk about in the shadows meeting people on the sly because the events just must be cannibalistic blood baths because it says everyone is fakes and users .. So I will meet this nice man off the internet who just wants us to have a quiet drink at his house ... thats *muuuuch* safer than attending a scary munch. Its ridiculous. I have been involved in the scene at different clubs/parties/munches up and down the UK since I was 17 ... the only bad thing that *ever* happened to me .. I was in a serious, stable relationship of about 2 years, in the comfort of my own home, with a safeword.

(3) ,,, dont transfer your views on motherhood onto other mothers ... Mrs Softness wouldn't thankyou for it

(4) ...  she already did ... she raised me as a thinking, independent, responsible woman equipped and able to make her own decisions. ....She had me ready for the world by treating me like I was already part of it. I turned 18 with all the equipment to care for myself and 100% confidence from her that I would do a damn good job of it. ...  and also I have a sneaking suspicion if she met Sir (who is a horny old man trying to abuse me).. she would try and poach Him for her own use.

(5) I dont have my own children ... I work with teens everyday ... disturbed teens who haven't had a chance to have picture book childhood skipping around a medow eating ice cream ... and I mourn that they will never have that ... I do not however then turn around and treat them like children. They are not children, they are young adults, and I treat them like that. Because I treat them like adults .. they make adult/responsible decisions around me. Around the teachers who insist on treating them like children, they behave like children. Its not a diffuclt pattern to spot really is it? When I *Do* have children of my own .. I will raise them as I was raised, that when they express an interest in being an adult (at whatever age that might be) I show them how best to be one, I will not force my children to remain children to sooth my own terrors about the world.

(6) ... and I would tell you to stop non-consensually domming me

< Message edited by softness -- 6/7/2008 8:21:28 AM >

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to Maestro66babycak)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 8:20:34 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro66babycak

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

imagines the evil, corrupting pedo Dominants waiting outside the sleeping "child's" door ... waiting to pounce at midnight


That is exactly what I meant by not being mature. The inability to interract rationally in a public forum is just one small example . Granted there are those that are older that act the same way. But that is for another thread entirely.


its called humour ... more specifically ... flippant humour

if you want to get philosophical about it ... i was applying a reducto absurbium ... reducing your argument to its most absurd conclusion which I believe is a fairly common rhetorical technique for dealing with arguments so obviously flawed

but then I am well known for my immaturity and being totally unable to interact rationally in a public forum .. Sir has to beat me for it often

(that last bit was sarcasm)

< Message edited by softness -- 6/7/2008 8:21:03 AM >

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to Maestro66babycak)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 8:21:14 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

At the age of 19 most children do not yet know what they want out of life. I am not talking about the few that are like you. I  am also not taking about the ones that join the military ( they grow up out of necessity to survive once they do join)I am talking about the majority of teenagers that are not  mature enough to be thrust out into the world and abused by a lifestyle that is full of fakes and users.


That simply isn't true... young military members and families are every bit as prone to being taken advantage of by the unscrupulous as are their civilian counterparts. 

Easy and over generalized stereotypes, whether about19 years olds or about military life rarely hold up to close scrutiny. 

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 9:25:56 AM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

At the age of 19 most children do not yet know what they want out of life. I am not talking about the few that are like you. I  am also not taking about the ones that join the military ( they grow up out of necessity to survive once they do join)I am talking about the majority of teenagers that are not  mature enough to be thrust out into the world and abused by a lifestyle that is full of fakes and users.


Everyone's got to grow up sometime... sheltering them won't help a bit. A good kick in the butt out of the house always works.


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(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 9:33:08 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I'm just so surprised that a lot of people are saying "They don't really know what they want, so they shouldn't be allowed to explore things they find themselves interested in"

How does that make sense?

And what about all the middle aged vanilla mothers/wives who suddenly read a few websites and decide it IS what they want.  How many can we think of who really have no clue what it is they want and act worse than a lot of 16 year olds in their frenzy?

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(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 9:37:51 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		You know it seems there are two issues here.

People who think that they themselves are old enouth
and
Others who think that someone else is NOT old enough.

I question the futility of making decisions for other people.

Mind you I will fully admit I believe I would have been better off had I waited but I also know that nothing was really going to stop me from being as involved and active as I was.

I see it this way. If you are in those Magic Years when everyone expects you to act like an adult but won't treat you like one then I suggest if you want to be a part of this lifestyle to do whatever it takes to do that. In My case I lied and as the years passed although nothing bad happened I realized the predicament I put people in. If you are going to do whatever it takes just remember you put other people at risk by doing certin things and they never consented to that. Protect your right but respect others as well is all I can say.

I find that I feel it is right to follow the rules of others today because it is Me asking to be a part of thier world not the other way around. I want to Join THIER activities and if I am going to do that I NEED to follow those rules. Now that fact that I didn't always do that is a great argument for those who wish to have those who are younger not able to attend, and that is unfortunate because Learning what I did the hard way then has helped me to be who I am now, and with that I feel it was time well spent even if I also believe that I was too young to have fully grasped what I was getting involved with.

Steel

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Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
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(in reply to Lynnxz)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 9:50:06 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Perhaps the two issues are that some people are basing their age cutoffs on realistic external concerns, as Archer mentioned...
and others are basing it on opinions about the suitability of younger members.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 10:48:09 AM   
RuheMaus


Posts: 142
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abcbsex

*waves hand* 19 year old here, in the lifestyle, currently trying my darndest to get to be 21 as soon as possible so I can go to a munch without having to drive three hours to Atlanta for a TNG group. I'd start my own here, but I think it would just be my husband and I. In that case, lots of sex would happen, so the authorities in the good old "birthplace of Southern Baptism" might be a bit iffy about it.


Yea for TNG!  i was just going to mention it!


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(in reply to abcbsex)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 10:55:50 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		i do not know if i agree  There is a age thing age of becoming something or growing into to something basic life skills take time to develope and are very important we seem to shuck tbings like that when it comes to age conversations.   always big mistake   gerneral custer was a great general at a early age but also for got the biggest lessons ofl life karma

(in reply to Madame4a)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 8:59:50 PM   
HUMILIATRlX


Posts: 2
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline 		Some of my best subs are subs fresh into and out of college.

(in reply to tsatske)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/7/2008 9:49:45 PM   
Maestro66babycak


Posts: 396
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro66babycak

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

imagines the evil, corrupting pedo Dominants waiting outside the sleeping "child's" door ... waiting to pounce at midnight


That is exactly what I meant by not being mature. The inability to interact rationally in a public forum is just one small example . Granted there are those that are older that act the same way. But that is for another thread entirely.


its called humour ... more specifically ... flippant humour

if you want to get philosophical about it ... i was applying a reducto absurbium ... reducing your argument to its most absurd conclusion which I believe is a fairly common rhetorical technique for dealing with arguments so obviously flawed

but then I am well known for my immaturity and being totally unable to interact rationally in a public forum .. Sir has to beat me for it often

(that last bit was sarcasm)


Gee it must be wonderful being you , knowing everything at such a young age , except how to accept another persons opinion as , another persons opinion.

Oh yes  you are the ONLY person on this site that EVER  uses sarcasm.

Since you have taken such huge offense at my opinion I can only come to the conclusion that you really weren't as mature at the age of 19 as you would have us believe.

< Message edited by Maestro66babycak -- 6/7/2008 9:55:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/8/2008 5:33:58 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		ok so ... it seems now, that unable to interact with my arguments ... you have become reduced to using ad hominum attacks ... thats when you attack the person speaking rather than the argument being put across .. just so you are clear. Now .. when I said I thought you were divorced from reality, I was guilty of doing the same thing, so sorry for that. I know much better than to use such a fallacy in my debate with others.

the second thing you did was create a straw man argument ... well more a straw man syllogism ...
Maturity is accepting other people's opinions
Person A is not accepting my opinion
Person A must not be mature
Now the thing with opinions is ... (I am working from Plato here as I think his model is the most useful- The Republic is a great read btw) they are *not* truth ... neither are they really *arguments*.. they are ideas, unfounded, untested, they are *at best* are blind men on the right path.

You have repeatedly stated your opinion. Fantastic. Well done you. You have repeatedly shown yourself to be able to describe the shadows on the wall. I am not content to listen to what someone else tells me about the shadows on the wall. I am not even content to look at the shadows for myself, nor even to look upon the puppets that make them. I am the type of person that frees myself from bondage within the cave .. and walks outside into the light. Seeing the world as it is, knowing full well the light will hurt my eyes.

so .. your opinion ... you look at the shadows on the wall ... and you see that young people make mistakes, are vulnerable and sometimes make bad choices, you listen to what you tell yourself about life and the world around you .. about how you interact with the world, you overhear stories about the world .. and internalise them as fear and fright.
You then create for yourself this opinion. That all people under 20 (you seem to have picked that age arbitrarily) are still children and are unable to care for themselves DESPITE what they or the law say.

so lets break this thread down
People aged 18 and over have legal control of their sexual decisions. FACT
BDSM is of interest to people of all ages, including 18 year olds. FACT
People of 18 with an active interest in BDSM are going to seek it out in real life. FACT
Public events, run by experienced people, with legal culpability, are safer than random meets with strangers. FACT

you say that young people aren't able to take care of themselves and are not mature enough to make decisions sensibly ... looking at the 4 facts above ... any sensible person with a concern for young people's welfare would be creating open, safe, and well maintained events for those people to attend where they can be watched over by adults with all the equipment to make decisions that they apparently lack.

The reason why I wont accept you opinion, is because it is not accompanied by cogent argument and sound reasoning.

feel free to have the last word ..

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to Maestro66babycak)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/8/2008 5:47:32 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Aye you can't live someone else’s life for them because in the end you could go on forever like that and argue any age is too young. No one is one step ahead of anyone else just because they are further away from their starting point.

You go west I go east, no one is going backwards or forwards just further from a point of origin.

My whole view on shadow puppets is that they shouldn't be attempted by people who have suffered industrial accidents.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 6/8/2008 5:48:15 AM >

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/8/2008 5:59:50 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

ok so ... it seems now, that unable to interact with my arguments ... you have become reduced to using ad hominum attacks ... thats when you attack the person speaking rather than the argument being put across .. just so you are clear. Now .. when I said I thought you were divorced from reality, I was guilty of doing the same thing, so sorry for that. I know much better than to use such a fallacy in my debate with others.

the second thing you did was create a straw man argument ... well more a straw man syllogism ...
Maturity is accepting other people's opinions
Person A is not accepting my opinion
Person A must not be mature
Now the thing with opinions is ... (I am working from Plato here as I think his model is the most useful- The Republic is a great read btw) they are *not* truth ... neither are they really *arguments*.. they are ideas, unfounded, untested, they are *at best* are blind men on the right path.

You have repeatedly stated your opinion. Fantastic. Well done you. You have repeatedly shown yourself to be able to describe the shadows on the wall. I am not content to listen to what someone else tells me about the shadows on the wall. I am not even content to look at the shadows for myself, nor even to look upon the puppets that make them. I am the type of person that frees myself from bondage within the cave .. and walks outside into the light. Seeing the world as it is, knowing full well the light will hurt my eyes.

so .. your opinion ... you look at the shadows on the wall ... and you see that young people make mistakes, are vulnerable and sometimes make bad choices, you listen to what you tell yourself about life and the world around you .. about how you interact with the world, you overhear stories about the world .. and internalise them as fear and fright.
You then create for yourself this opinion. That all people under 20 (you seem to have picked that age arbitrarily) are still children and are unable to care for themselves DESPITE what they or the law say.

so lets break this thread down
People aged 18 and over have legal control of their sexual decisions. FACT
BDSM is of interest to people of all ages, including 18 year olds. FACT
People of 18 with an active interest in BDSM are going to seek it out in real life. FACT
Public events, run by experienced people, with legal culpability, are safer than random meets with strangers. FACT

you say that young people aren't able to take care of themselves and are not mature enough to make decisions sensibly ... looking at the 4 facts above ... any sensible person with a concern for young people's welfare would be creating open, safe, and well maintained events for those people to attend where they can be watched over by adults with all the equipment to make decisions that they apparently lack.

The reason why I wont accept you opinion, is because it is not accompanied by cogent argument and sound reasoning.

feel free to have the last word ..


 I wanna be like softness when I grow up!  How do you feel about adopting a 46 year old child?

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 6/8/2008 6:01:00 AM >

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Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
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(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/8/2008 6:08:51 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

 I wanna be like softness when I grow up!  How do you feel about adopting a 46 year old child?


laughs ... i dont know what kind of mother i would make ... but you're old enough to make your own decisions ... i will just tell you when dinner is ready!

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to lusciouslips19)
Profile   Post #: 100
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