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19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 1:33:35 PM

tsatske

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Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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First of all, this is not another 'how can a person this young be a Dom, a Mistress, actually submit, know what they want?' thread.
On a local list that i subscribe to, which is for people who attend a local dungeon ( okay, not super local, i live in little house land out here! but, about as local as it gets) there is a discussion of age limits for attending munches, classes, dungeons, parties, conventions, whatever.
I have said many times before - someday we (BDSMers in general, as a subset of society) will 'grow up' enough (by which i mean, become mainstream and accepted enough, so i am kind of talking about everybody else growing up, not us) to start thinking about what the gay culture already deals with - young people. Young people who already know that they carry alternate sexual identities are in need of socialization and help to get safely through adolescence, and yet, they are not in need of being exposed to a lot of potential perps looking for some young stuff!
There are, of course, early bloomer munches in most bigger cities - you still have to be over 18, but usually it is only for the under 30 or 35 crowd, so it is a safe place to get to know other young people without anyone trying to get into your pants just cause your young and hot, and without anyone telling you that you are too young for all this, and without anyone getting jealous of your youth.
At what age should young people be welcomed to conventions, seminars, classes, public information meet and greets, dungeons, parties, demos? is it different for different events?
The thing that really got me to start the thread was, someone on the local list suggested a reasonable standard age limit - maybe 21 or 22 - with exceptions made for anyone over 18 but under the age limit who was willing to jump through several 'hoops' - like accepting being assigned a mentor, attending a certain number of munches and classes before being allowed at a party or dungeon event, ect.
What do you think?

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RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 1:42:16 PM

Madame4a

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From: Washington, DC area
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Unfortunately, whatever age that anyone thinks won't matter as most SM stuff is covered by sex laws in most jurisdictions -- for that reason its either going to be 18 or 21. I know the clubs where I live for the most part are 21.

I don't have an age that people will think is reasonable because I believe the SM actually does require some emotional maturity, life and sexual experience. I don't think there is a replacement for that experience. That said, someone who is 18 could have the same experience level as someone who is 30, unfortunately. We see that here all the time -- I check a profile and am either awed or simply flabbergasted at someone's age -- either they sound 25 years younger or at least older than they are.

Educating and mentoring gay youth isn't actually regulated except by basic laws -- so its a bit easier, obviously. Basic sexuality really does develop at an early age but I don't believe that SM is basic sexuality.

I think its all a lot easier when you're straight as you have nothing to question, your urges are like your peers, you relate to what most of them are thinking and so you have no reason to examine your sexuality.

blah.. so I'm rambling.. and ending with... ahhhh...

it depends ...

< Message edited by Madame4a -- 6/5/2008 1:55:40 PM >

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RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 1:42:56 PM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
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i actually prefer the word of mouth approach. i was introduced to bdsm at around 19 through a switch that i knew. we're considering mentoring a girl who's 18. i think personally that a group setting could be overwhelming (but your mileage will vary and it does depend on the individual). i think that it's the same as with anyone else who enters a specific subculture, you can get extremely mature 18 year olds who handle it fine and extremely immature 38 year olds who can't.

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RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 1:43:18 PM

softness

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From: Leeds, UK
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I think if the law in your country says some can make their own sexual decisions, and consent to sexual activity ... then that should be good enough for the kinky community too ... or are perverts somehow above the law of the land?

If you start making young 'uns jump though hoops ... then I say you should put Old'uns through them as well ... those Old guys aren't as spry as they used to be .. that flogging could put their pacemaker under all kinds of strain.. or the obviously stupid people ... do they have to pass some kind of test? ... no .. so why should the young people? ..

I attended my first dungeon when I was 17 .. under false ID ... I would have attended at 16 .. but I hadn't yet perfected nicking my sisters driver's ID ... I am now 24 .. has 7 years of varying intensity experience under my belt .. under your idea I would have had to be left out in the cold, waiting to find my place and sexual identity for 5 more years .. attending only sanitised munches .. If i had been made to wait for that long I would have been trolling the internet being picked up by god opnly knows what kind of fool and been in far more danger than public and well maintained parties and dungeons where people were aware I was young and were keeping a quiet eye out for me

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Post #: 4

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 1:46:50 PM

Asherdelampyr

Posts: 9556
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From: The Desert
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around here the only "social" event that I currently know of is 18+... However, its a club night, and things are sort of subtle (could be a product of the state I live in) I think 18 is a good number, of course I also think that the legal drinking age should be 18, and for close to the same reasons. In my opinion, if someone is old and mature enough to die for thier country, they are mature enough to handle more than it appears... of course it does have a whole lot to do with personal maturity, so maybe a case-by-case approach would be best? Just throwin ideas out there

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RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 1:49:23 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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actually, softness, it is not so much my idea. I really do think that a younger person who is aware that they are not nice-normal-strait do need socialaztion, have a hard row, if you will. I think providing places for them to turn is a good idea for the gay community, and a good idea in the lifestyle, just harder to sort out what it is we can or should do, in our lifestyle, to keep from being seen as a bunch of chicken hawks, you know?

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Post #: 6

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 1:54:28 PM

softness

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thinks its a *little* bit late for that

I think the best thing we can do for our own PR ... if people feel a need to worry about our PR ... is to show we treat everybody with the same respect .. whatever their age/race/kink/gender/orientation/sexuality .. etc .. and that we only expect people to be safe and respectful of others ... the groups within the scene locally who promote that feeling are always the most accepted and respected

age discrimiation is a personal pet hate for me ... I wasn't going at you .. I was going at the notion that its ok to discriminate against the young ....

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio

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Post #: 7

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:09:05 PM

RavenMuse

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The biggest problem I see there is that most of those who would 'volunteer' to 'mentor' someone of that age are exactly the kind that you are trying to protect them from.

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Post #: 8

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:14:28 PM

Evility

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I think the organizers of the event should have the final say as to what age limits they would like to enforce. Even if it is a munch that is held in the meeting room of a public restaurant the meeting itself is not open to the general public. If it's a play party at a dungeon or at someone's home then the dungeon owner or host should decide. I don't think there is a "should be" age limit that should apply across the board.

Personally I don't have a problem allowing anyone who is 18 or older to attend these things but if I was to host something like this I would check a little deeper into local regulations. At the same time if someone else is hosting and sets the age limit at 21 I wouldn't argue that. It's not unreasonable especially in light of the fact that there are groups (even here locally) who have an upper age limit... say 39. If someone wanted to host a munch group for persons 35 or older I think that would be fine.

Age is a pretty vague reason to exclude or include someone when talking about experience since the two bear little direct correlation.

edited to change "no" to "little direct".

< Message edited by Evility -- 6/5/2008 2:16:50 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:17:47 PM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
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Yeah I'm going to piss people off with this, So consider this your warning. If you already think I am Arrogant Opinonated and Hard Headed this will confirm it. This is just one of those topics that I get passionate about and feel the desire to express myself upon.

Anyone who has read me for awhile will now that I started young and I got an issue with the Age debate and even though this wasn't supposed to be one it really still is just in a nicer way.

Being who I am I read the conversation the OP was having as being "At what age should we accept them and take them seriously?"

First, lets deal with that logically. Most of the munches I attended have little to do with sex and even less to do with sceneing cause most of the munches that I attended were in Bars, or Social clubs that has a 18 or 21 and over abe limit. The rules of the club and facility are greater than the desires of youth. I attended Munches at 16 but had to lie to get in and had to lie to stay. I was okay with that because I wanted to socialize more than I wanted the world to cater to me so I was willing to do more to attend, but what I was willing to do was not dictated by the group it was dictated by what I was willing to do to stay. I lied about my age and I kept quiet so that my demeanor in talking wouldn't give away my true age by saying something childish. In short I listened and stayed under radar.

Second lets deal with the individual. I often find myself laughing to myself when talking to someone who has issue with my age and then goes on and on about thier 8 years of experience in this lifestyle and how the earned thier space and blah blah blah, What's funny is when I know I have been thier longer than they have and yet I never once think to question thier right or abilities in this lifestyle.

I equally chuckle when people talk about how I'll feel different when I'm older. I love this because time applies equally to seperate entities, i.e. they too will feel differently making what they currently believe just as inadmissable. Sure I'll fgeel different but that doesn't mean that I will agree with what you have to say anymore then you will agree with what you had to say two years ago.

I think we spend far too much time splitting the social stigma to accomidate a smaller group rather then telling the smaller group to accept thier surroundings or leave, expecting people to adapt is what makes things evolve.

The OP makes a statement that she is hopeing and waiting for the rest of the world to grow up and accept is, at least in a jist that is what she is getting at, I say that this will only happen when we ourselves become more socially acceptable to our own kind.

There should be no age limit on Knowledge ever.

If someone is young and wants to learn then teach them and give them the ability to learn no matter what, but respect the laws of the land, don't make up a form of laws to offer comfort to the masses.

When I held my munch I held it in a Bar in the Restraunt area that way ID was checked at the door and 18 and over could still attend, they just got stamped with a red stamp that said Under 21, thus no Alcohol. If you thought that was unfair you didn't attend our munches. Play parties were also 18 and over because that was the age of being a Legal Adult and made thier actions thier own no one else could be held responsible for thier actions.

I know that there are some jackasses who think that BDSM is all about beating and fucking and well we made those types feel very uncomfortable and eventually they left own, but we never said they couldn't come.

I think we as a whole should look at ourselves and ask what makes us so desireable before we think we have the right to determine what is Undesirable and then make rules against them.

That's just my take on this sorry if you don't agree, but that's the way opinions work we don't all share the same ones.

Steel

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Post #: 10

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:21:48 PM

Archer

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Having spoken with venue owners of multiple play spaces the common use age of admission to the venue is 21. The most often cited reason is simple even at 18 or 19 if on the off chane that the police raid an establishment. The newspapers are going to lead with the headline of, 4 TEENAGERS were amoung those caught up in a raid on a local SEX CLUB.

Those headlines are going to leave even the most understanding city council members with no choice but to pull your Certificate of Occupancy, and shut you down.

Why they picked 21 instead of 20 I'm not sure other than it matches the drinking age in most places.

(in reply to Evility)

Post #: 11

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:27:22 PM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

The biggest problem I see there is that most of those who would 'volunteer' to 'mentor' someone of that age are exactly the kind that you are trying to protect them from.

laughs ... I am slowly introducing a friend into the scene ... we attended a weekend of events in Manchester ... my first and more vehement piece of advice was - if they offer to Mentor you .. or protect you ... or guide you ... politely decline

especially if they are rubbing their palms together as they do it

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

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Post #: 12

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:28:36 PM

FRSguy

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I think barring someone based on age is stupid and dangerous. If they are old enough to attend leagaly then they should. I would hate to think of a young person getting involved in something that could potentially be dangerouse or deadly if they are missinformed and then getting hurt because someone said they were too young. If someone is legaly old enough to make decisions on it and take responsiblity for there actions then there should be some help made available to them. I am sure there are some at these muches ect. that think of them as hot young meat but someone has to have some kind of responsibility especially when it comes to the Doms to see that these people are taken care of and addressed properly. I have never known a young person to say "oh, I have to wait until I am 21 to do that or 25 to do that" They get curiouse they jump in and its our responsibility that if someone needs info that they get it. If you have a lot of young people attending then maybe you guys could make a seperate group for them or assign someone or group of people that are responisble enough not to fuck them. The fact that this problem exists look so bad....

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 13

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:35:18 PM

Usako

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From: NYC
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My local thing has an age limit of 18 (both the munches and the actual club.)

I think this lifestyle is already overrun by old people, barring youth from learning will just make it worse. Everyone has to start somewhere and if they're legal in their country/state/area then they should have the right to experience what they like. When people say "Oh he/she is too young to be a dom/me" I wonder "Maybe, but how do you plan they learn if they don't try?"

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Post #: 14

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:41:19 PM

CruelDesires

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I feel so old now.

lol.

CD

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Post #: 15

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:47:35 PM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
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From: St George Utah
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Yeah my wife makes me feel old all the time and we're only 6 years apart.

She doesn't know the good cartoons

She has no idea why I am so excited to see Speed Racer and for half a day went around singing "Go Speed Racer, Go Go Speed Racer, Go Speed Racer Gooooooooooo"

Then she only remember the NEW Transformers and doesn't remember Optimus Prime Dying

Nor does she remember "Small Wonder" or "Out of this World"

Wow I just realized what I dork I really am.

Please ignore this rant.

Steel

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RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:48:24 PM

Evility

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Joined: 12/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Usako
Everyone has to start somewhere and if they're legal in their country/state/area then they should have the right to experience what they like.

I fail to see how a private club or group that sets an age limit of 21 is somehow depriving those 18 to 20 years of age from experiencing what they have "a right to experience". I practiced plenty of kinky stuff in my late teens without ever exercising my "right" to be a member of any group r club.

(in reply to Usako)

Post #: 17

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:49:02 PM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Yeah my wife makes me feel old all the time and we're only 6 years apart.

She doesn't know the good cartoons

She has no idea why I am so excited to see Speed Racer and for half a day went around singing "Go Speed Racer, Go Go Speed Racer, Go Speed Racer Gooooooooooo"

Then she only remember the NEW Transformers and doesn't remember Optimus Prime Dying

Nor does she remember "Small Wonder" or "Out of this World"

Wow I just realized what I dork I really am.

Please ignore this rant.

Steel

He is 8 years older than me. we play this game a lot lol.

_____________________________

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” churchill

the first rule of fluff club is that you don't talk about fluff club!

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 18

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:49:41 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline

quote:

my first and more vehement piece of advice was - if they offer to Mentor you .. or protect you ... or guide you ... politely decline especially if they are rubbing their palms together as they do it

LOL, for real, softness.
Every locale is different. Living in the middle of little house land, in God's country here, i have to admit, the prevailing attitude of the local scene can be a bit chavanistic.
It is usually a rule here that a submissive alone, at a party or event other than a public munch, must ask a Dom to put her under their protection. They take it kind of seriously around her. My Master has extended his protection to one of the local girls who is single. At our most recent party, one of the Doms asked Master's permission to flirt with her. (okay, not quite flirt, i guess. His actual words were 'permission to fuck with her head')
We have a single, very new and very young girl who has recently joined our group. I find it amazing how many things she brings into rather clear relief when i watch what goes on around her. LOL.
at her first party, she got told sternly to find a Dominant and ask to be under 'their protection'. She showed, however, that, however young she might be, she is smart. She looked at the circle around her - nearly every Dominant man in our group, including my Master, and all of them smiling a bit too much (a Buffett says - fins to the left, fins to the right...) and walked quickly away from them and sought out the parties host, nearly the only man who was not standing around her rubbing their hands, and asked him. Smart girl.
The truth is - i am a big proponent of mentours (not the forced ones mentioned in my OP, i mean the practice of finding one for yourself at varoius times and occasions). But, in truth, submissive women make damn fine mentours. At a public party or dungeon, you are not going to have to strong arm someone to the floor to keep them from playing the new or single sub in 'your protection', and i think submissive women do a fine job. They are more concerned about what the sub in question really needs, and, generally, unless they are fishing for their own Master, couldn't care less what the varouis Doms standing around rubbing their hands want. and that is a GOOD thing.
if the local group here is going to insist on a 'protector' to an unattached sub at a party, the best thing a subwoman could do is hunt down one of the Dominant Women in the group, and ask them.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 19

RE: 19 year olds in the lifestyle - 6/5/2008 2:55:08 PM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

quote:

my first and more vehement piece of advice was - if they offer to Mentor you .. or protect you ... or guide you ... politely decline especially if they are rubbing their palms together as they do it

LOL, for real, softness.
Every locale is different. Living in the middle of little house land, in God's country here, i have to admit, the prevailing attitude of the local scene can be a bit chavanistic.
It is usually a rule here that a submissive alone, at a party or event other than a public munch, must ask a Dom to put her under their protection. They take it kind of seriously around her. My Master has extended his protection to one of the local girls who is single. At our most recent party, one of the Doms asked Master's permission to flirt with her. (okay, not quite flirt, i guess. His actual words were 'permission to fuck with her head')
We have a single, very new and very young girl who has recently joined our group. I find it amazing how many things she brings into rather clear relief when i watch what goes on around her. LOL.
at her first party, she got told sternly to find a Dominant and ask to be under 'their protection'. She showed, however, that, however young she might be, she is smart. She looked at the circle around her - nearly every Dominant man in our group, including my Master, and all of them smiling a bit too much (a Buffett says - fins to the left, fins to the right...) and walked quickly away from them and sought out the parties host, nearly the only man who was not standing around her rubbing their hands, and asked him. Smart girl.
The truth is - i am a big proponent of mentours (not the forced ones mentioned in my OP, i mean the practice of finding one for yourself at varoius times and occasions). But, in truth, submissive women make damn fine mentours. At a public party or dungeon, you are not going to have to strong arm someone to the floor to keep them from playing the new or single sub in 'your protection', and i think submissive women do a fine job. They are more concerned about what the sub in question really needs, and, generally, unless they are fishing for their own Master, couldn't care less what the varouis Doms standing around rubbing their hands want. and that is a GOOD thing.
if the local group here is going to insist on a 'protector' to an unattached sub at a party, the best thing a subwoman could do is hunt down one of the Dominant Women in the group, and ask them.

i had the priviledge of being mentored/protected by a dominant woman that i met before i even knew we were both kink. i think it was one of the best decisions i've made thus far--she seemed to be the only one who's only interest in me was my best interest, to the point where i was receiving homework checks nightly for awhile.

_____________________________

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” churchill

the first rule of fluff club is that you don't talk about fluff club!

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 20

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