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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 5:30:51 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
Shouldn't we take care of the job in Afghanistan first?


What job?

I opposed that invasion/occupation from the first also.



I've rarely supported military intervention of any kind, not because I'm fundamentally opposed to war but because it's always clear that the folks who are proposing it haven't thought it through.  I'm sure that we would have gone into Afghanistan no matter who had been president.  Bin Laden was there and most of the world wanted to deal with him swiftly and decisively, not just as retribution but to send a message to would-be terrorists and to governments who support them. 

We've screwed it up in a number of ways.  We didn't get the terrorists, so the international war on terror looks pretty ineffectual.  We didn't involve the Afghan people in reconstruction so they feel like things are being done TO them rather than WITH them, so many of them are not cooperating.  We're not going to be leaving there any time soon.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 5:54:31 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
Shouldn't we take care of the job in Afghanistan first?


What job?

I opposed that invasion/occupation from the first also.







While I opposed the the Iraq invasion from the start, I think I can honestly say I've never heard anyone who doesn't believe we had the right to invade Afghanistan.  So, I would really like to know what you think the alternatives were.  There is no dispute that Al-Quaeda had long had training camps there, encouraged and financed by the ruling Taliban.  There is no disputing that the Taliban sheltered Bin-Laden before and after 9/11.  So when we suffer a major terrorist attack we don't have the right to defend ourselves by invading the country that clearly and indisputably was complicit?

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 7:04:53 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
Shouldn't we take care of the job in Afghanistan first?


What job?

I opposed that invasion/occupation from the first also.







While I opposed the the Iraq invasion from the start, I think I can honestly say I've never heard anyone who doesn't believe we had the right to invade Afghanistan.  So, I would really like to know what you think the alternatives were.  There is no dispute that Al-Quaeda had long had training camps there, encouraged and financed by the ruling Taliban.  There is no disputing that the Taliban sheltered Bin-Laden before and after 9/11.  So when we suffer a major terrorist attack we don't have the right to defend ourselves by invading the country that clearly and indisputably was complicit?


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Osama say the attacks against the US were because the US had bases in the middle east?

I agree the US had the right to respond to the 9/11 attack with all the fury it could muster but let's not forget, the attack was not out of the blue but because of US long term intervention in the middle east.

Most muslim terrorism is basically the baby of western policy in the middle east. If the west had left the people in the middle east to govern themselves like we expect to be left to govern ourselves, there probably wouldn't be a terrorist problem.

Let's not pretend the US and the west are not innocent victims of terrorim

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 7:34:10 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		None of you is at all suspicious that we didn't, in fact, get OBL? I gave you two actual quotes from the idiot Prez contradicting himself on the matter - one day it's critical, the next he doesn't give a fuck. Why is that?

And no, I don't think we had the right to invade Afghanistan. Here's why...

1. Taliban? We trained OBL and his guys via the CIA and with money acquired by Charlie Wilson (which you can even see in a movie with his name in the title). So if you want to blame anyone, blame the chickens coming home to roost. Yeah, I know - I'm un-american.

2. Terrorists do not equal the country they may reside within. In reality, there's very little you can do to combat terrorism. Small groups can keep popping up and you play a game of whack a mole each time. One day it's Tim McVeigh and the next it's "The Base!"

3. I have my doubts that OBL was actually the mastermind of all of this. Sure, he took credit. He also took up the name that we gave him - Al Qaeda aka "The Base" is a name invented by westerners. I have the very strong suspicion that Al Qaeda doesn't even exist. I am not alone in this belief. See this post here for more, far more:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1269041

So see, it gets pretty sketchy from there. They didn't get OBL the way they said they would. Why not? Do they know he's not their guy? Maybe the whole setup is useful for other purposes. For more see post 12 of this thread. I'll stand behind the words of George Orwell. It's not even clever any longer. We've known about it for decades, the text is taught in high schools.

You just refuse to believe it.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 9:24:07 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro



1. Taliban? We trained OBL and his guys via the CIA and with money acquired by Charlie Wilson (which you can even see in a movie with his name in the title). So if you want to blame anyone, blame the chickens coming home to roost. Yeah, I know - I'm un-american.


Training them to fight the Soviets does not equate into 9/11.

quote:

2. Terrorists do not equal the country they may reside within. In reality, there's very little you can do to combat terrorism. Small groups can keep popping up and you play a game of whack a mole each time. One day it's Tim McVeigh and the next it's "The Base!"


You're right about this, but as the Taliban were head of the nation of Afghanistan, that made it a legitimate target.

quote:

3. I have my doubts that OBL was actually the mastermind of all of this.


He should never have opened his mouth then

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 11:27:23 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro



1. Taliban? We trained OBL and his guys via the CIA and with money acquired by Charlie Wilson (which you can even see in a movie with his name in the title). So if you want to blame anyone, blame the chickens coming home to roost. Yeah, I know - I'm un-american.


Training them to fight the Soviets does not equate into 9/11.



If you are Russian, my guess they would say with some justification, that the US got what they deserved for training terrorists. You can't train terrorists to fight a  war by proxy and then claim to be innocent victims further down the road. If you play with dynamite, it might well explode.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 1:28:44 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
Shouldn't we take care of the job in Afghanistan first?


What job?

I opposed that invasion/occupation from the first also.







While I opposed the the Iraq invasion from the start, I think I can honestly say I've never heard anyone who doesn't believe we had the right to invade Afghanistan.  So, I would really like to know what you think the alternatives were.  There is no dispute that Al-Quaeda had long had training camps there, encouraged and financed by the ruling Taliban.  There is no disputing that the Taliban sheltered Bin-Laden before and after 9/11.  So when we suffer a major terrorist attack we don't have the right to defend ourselves by invading the country that clearly and indisputably was complicit?


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Osama say the attacks against the US were because the US had bases in the middle east?

I agree the US had the right to respond to the 9/11 attack with all the fury it could muster but let's not forget, the attack was not out of the blue but because of US long term intervention in the middle east.

Most muslim terrorism is basically the baby of western policy in the middle east. If the west had left the people in the middle east to govern themselves like we expect to be left to govern ourselves, there probably wouldn't be a terrorist problem.

Let's not pretend the US and the west are not innocent victims of terrorim



You know, I've been sitting here trying to think what comment you made that was the most outrageous to respond to, then I realized they don't deserve the dignity of a response. 

I don't agree with my government's stance on a lot of issues, including their Middle East policy, but you're  sitting there defending terrorism and blatant murder.  

These were 3,000 innocent men, women, and children that died because they happened to live in the country that a sociopathic terrorist blames for perceived injustices, and you're telling me it was their fault that they died?

What the hell kind of person are YOU?   Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 6/7/2008 1:52:41 PM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 1:48:10 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

None of you is at all suspicious that we didn't, in fact, get OBL? I gave you two actual quotes from the idiot Prez contradicting himself on the matter - one day it's critical, the next he doesn't give a fuck. Why is that?

And no, I don't think we had the right to invade Afghanistan. Here's why...

1. Taliban? We trained OBL and his guys via the CIA and with money acquired by Charlie Wilson (which you can even see in a movie with his name in the title). So if you want to blame anyone, blame the chickens coming home to roost. Yeah, I know - I'm un-american.

2. Terrorists do not equal the country they may reside within. In reality, there's very little you can do to combat terrorism. Small groups can keep popping up and you play a game of whack a mole each time. One day it's Tim McVeigh and the next it's "The Base!"

3. I have my doubts that OBL was actually the mastermind of all of this. Sure, he took credit. He also took up the name that we gave him - Al Qaeda aka "The Base" is a name invented by westerners. I have the very strong suspicion that Al Qaeda doesn't even exist. I am not alone in this belief. See this post here for more, far more:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1269041

So see, it gets pretty sketchy from there. They didn't get OBL the way they said they would. Why not? Do they know he's not their guy? Maybe the whole setup is useful for other purposes. For more see post 12 of this thread. I'll stand behind the words of George Orwell. It's not even clever any longer. We've known about it for decades, the text is taught in high schools.

You just refuse to believe it.



Another indisputable fact is we did train and arm them.  No argument there.  We got ourselves into this by meddling into things we should not have.

In this case, though, terrorists did equal the country they resided in.  The Taliban and Al-Quaeda were/are almost indistinguishable, and that was the country's ruling party.  

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 1:50:28 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Another indisputable fact is we did train and arm them.  No argument there.  We got ourselves into this by meddling into things we should not have.

In this case, though, terrorists did equal the country they resided in.  The Taliban and Al-Quaeda were/are almost indistinguishable, and that was the country's ruling party.  


Your emotions are getting the better of you: you just jumped down meatcleaver's throat for saying nearly exactly the same thing that you did above. Breathe, think, focus.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 2:06:43 PM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Another indisputable fact is we did train and arm them.  No argument there.  We got ourselves into this by meddling into things we should not have.

In this case, though, terrorists did equal the country they resided in.  The Taliban and Al-Quaeda were/are almost indistinguishable, and that was the country's ruling party.  


Your emotions are getting the better of you: you just jumped down meatcleaver's throat for saying nearly exactly the same thing that you did above. Breathe, think, focus.


No, I don't think we said the same thing.  I think our policy in the Middle East has always been wrong, but it's a big leap from saying that to using it as a justification for terrorism.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 2:08:41 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You see what you want to see... enjoy your anger, if that's what you want.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 2:19:41 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You see what you want to see... enjoy your anger, if that's what you want.


Well, point out exactly what I'm missing.  It's one thing to say U.S. foreign policy is wrong, it's another to use that as an excuse for terrorism.  If I'm mistaken that was what was said point it out, because I don't see it. 

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 2:22:43 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL rulemylife

Another indisputable fact is we did train and arm them.  No argument there.  We got ourselves into this by meddling into things we should not have.



!!! If I was mightily pissed off I could argue that you're justifying terrorism too *shrug* . I know you're not, however, and your point is remarkably similar to meatcleaver's. Just saying...


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 2:39:30 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL rulemylife

Another indisputable fact is we did train and arm them.  No argument there.  We got ourselves into this by meddling into things we should not have.



!!! If I was mightily pissed off I could argue that you're justifying terrorism too *shrug* . I know you're not, however, and your point is remarkably similar to meatcleaver's. Just saying...



Our points only agree in that we believe the U.S. government to be populated by idiots.  My "point" is that there is no excuse for terrorism.  His point seems to be that the attacks against western countries were somehow a justifiable response to the foreign policy mistakes of western governments.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 2:50:34 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Osama say the attacks against the US were because the US had bases in the middle east?

I agree the US had the right to respond to the 9/11 attack with all the fury it could muster but let's not forget, the attack was not out of the blue but because of US long term intervention in the middle east.

Most muslim terrorism is basically the baby of western policy in the middle east. If the west had left the people in the middle east to govern themselves like we expect to be left to govern ourselves, there probably wouldn't be a terrorist problem.

Let's not pretend the US and the west are not innocent victims of terrorim



You know, I've been sitting here trying to think what comment you made that was the most outrageous to respond to, then I realized they don't deserve the dignity of a response. 

I don't agree with my government's stance on a lot of issues, including their Middle East policy, but you're  sitting there defending terrorism and blatant murder.  

These were 3,000 innocent men, women, and children that died because they happened to live in the country that a sociopathic terrorist blames for perceived injustices, and you're telling me it was their fault that they died?

What the hell kind of person are YOU?   Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 






What has the US's and the west's (particularly the UK) policies been in the middle east if not terrorist?

How many innocent people have been killed in the ME (before (9/11, let's not consider afterwards) because of US policy (and other western powers)?

Wasn't the US's and the UK's overthrow of the Iranian government in 1953 an act of state terrorism and how many innocent people do you think died in the chain of events that led from there? I could make a list of other policies but I'll refrain.

Of course 9/11 was wrong, of course it was an act of mass murder but to look at it in a vacuum is to put ones head in the sand. The US and the UK (when it has the power) have been commiting acts of terrorism for years. The US actively supports Israels acts of terrorism and actually bank rolls it.

The US has been commiting and defending terrorism for years so why is the US's terrorism not terrorism but someone elses is?  I'll tell you. Its a matter of convenience.

No it was not the fault of the victims of 9/11 that they died but it is rather convenient to say the people who killed them just woke up one day and thought "America is a nice peaceful country that has never done us any harm, why don't we bomb it".  As for sociopathy, look no further than your own government. What do you think their foreign policy is, social work?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/7/2008 2:51:15 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 2:58:11 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You see what you want to see... enjoy your anger, if that's what you want.


Well, point out exactly what I'm missing.  It's one thing to say U.S. foreign policy is wrong, it's another to use that as an excuse for terrorism.  If I'm mistaken that was what was said point it out, because I don't see it. 


rulemylife, think what you are saying. What is the difference between the US's foreign policy and terrorism? US foreign policy has been killing innocent people for years and I mean years before 9/11, not after.

If you can't see the terrorism in US foreign policy, how can you expect your so called terrorist to see the terorism in their acts? I'll tell you, they refuse to see the truth of their actions like you refuse to see the truth of your government's actions.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 3:37:36 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
No, I don't think we said the same thing.


True that.

You fail to recognize the cost in paid in blood for our middle eastern foreign policy OVER THERE because you choose to focus on the price we have recently paid for it over here.

Chickens coming home to roost. Even a farmer has more sense that that.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 4:00:24 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro



1. Taliban? We trained OBL and his guys via the CIA and with money acquired by Charlie Wilson (which you can even see in a movie with his name in the title). So if you want to blame anyone, blame the chickens coming home to roost. Yeah, I know - I'm un-american.


Training them to fight the Soviets does not equate into 9/11.



If you are Russian, my guess they would say with some justification, that the US got what they deserved for training terrorists. You can't train terrorists to fight a  war by proxy and then claim to be innocent victims further down the road. If you play with dynamite, it might well explode.


Were they terrorists at the time, though?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 4:48:49 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, I don't think we said the same thing.  I think our policy in the Middle East has always been wrong, but it's a big leap from saying that to using it as a justification for terrorism.


Its an undisputed fact that Osama Bin Laden ordered a fatwah on the US and the west, due to two points. Bases in Muslim countries, and policies in the middle east. I dont see how someone pointing out the facts is justifying terrorism.

Sugar, try and get a book called The Base by Jane Corbin. Its a good account of how Al Qaida got started. Youre right in that it started prior to OBL. Its is mainly a lose knit coalition of Arabic war veterans from the war with the Russians. The Taliban is Afghanistani and not under control of AQ in any way. More like a loose alliance as and when needed. The Taliban did offer to hand Bin Laden to the US if they could produce evidence that he was responsible for 9/11 and that the trial was under Islamic law. I am guessing they knew the US could not agree to that.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/7/2008 5:14:39 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
No, I don't think we said the same thing.


True that.

You fail to recognize the cost in paid in blood for our middle eastern foreign policy OVER THERE because you choose to focus on the price we have recently paid for it over here.

Chickens coming home to roost. Even a farmer has more sense that that.

Even if I agreed with your chickens coming home to roost theory,how does that justify 9/11.And as a soveriegn nation were our leaders(gulp)not obligated to respond.Imagine the reaction if an American President On 9/12 had trew up his hands and said something to the effect ..."we know who they are ,we know where they are but we have determined that we brought this nefarious act on ourselves so you know my bad sorry nothing we can do about it."....Yeah that would have worked

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 40
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