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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:11:28 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Quit typing faster than me, darn it.



Can't do that, I am a trained secretariat professional (courtesy of the United Nations ).

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:19:06 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Whose government was it? Who was in charge of foreign policy? Who ordered the invasion of Iraq? And you argue the other side is equally guilty? Tragicomedy at its best .

Civics 101, kittin.
The government is that of the United States, and the citizens thereof, encompassing both the President and the Congress, who are mandated by the Constitution to work together. 

In particular, foreign policy is executed by the President upon the "advice and consent" of the Senate. 

President Bush gave the specific order to invade, after receiving specific authorization to do so from Congress.

There is no "other side", kittin.  There is one government, and all the major players in that government fucked up royally on Iraq.  Bush, Senators, Congressmen, Republicans, Democrats.....they all screwed the pooch.


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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:23:01 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Quit typing faster than me, darn it.



Can't do that, I am a trained secretariat professional (courtesy of the United Nations ).

Isn't that a race horse's name?

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:23:15 PM   
kittinSol


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"There is no other side"...  Your entire political system is based on the idea that there is an other side to beat. As a matter of fact, the entire culture is based on this competitive ideology.

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:24:23 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Isn't that a race horse's name?


Je suis perdue.

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:25:40 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Whose government was it? Who was in charge of foreign policy? Who ordered the invasion of Iraq? And you argue the other side is equally guilty? Tragicomedy at its best .

Civics 101, kittin.
The government is that of the United States, and the citizens thereof, encompassing both the President and the Congress, who are mandated by the Constitution to work together. 

In particular, foreign policy is executed by the President upon the "advice and consent" of the Senate. 

President Bush gave the specific order to invade, after receiving specific authorization to do so from Congress.


Obtaining such authorization ( and later certification ) through deceit, craft, trickery, dishonest means, and fraudulent representations, including lies, half-truths, material omissions, and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity is a crime. Same as the Enron Guys got locked up for. Marion Jones is sitting in Federal Prison for less.

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:29:47 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Isn't that a race horse's name?


Je suis perdue.

You are lost?  I really hope google didn't fail me on that one.

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:32:25 PM   
kittinSol


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Ben, j'ai pas compris l'allusion avec le cheval et le secretariat... c'est tout, je veux pas hijacker le thread, merde, alors.

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:37:47 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

"There is no other side"... Your entire political system is based on the idea that there is an other side to beat. As a matter of fact, the entire culture is based on this competitive ideology.

You need to read the Constitution. 


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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:43:42 PM   
kittinSol


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What happened to Yoda  ?

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:45:47 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

What happened to Yoda  ?

DO Read the Constitution.


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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:51:48 PM   
kittinSol


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If you wish to point something out to me that would demonstrate Bush and his government weren't all powerful when it came to shafting the American people, I'll be happy to read it.

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:54:30 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

If you wish to point something out to me that would demonstrate Bush and his government weren't all powerful when it came to shafting the American people, I'll be happy to read it.

The Constitution.  It defines the workings of the Federal Government, including the interactions between the Executive and Legislative branches.

There's not a damn thing Bush has done in which the Congress has not been complicit.


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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 5:57:19 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

If you wish to point something out to me that would demonstrate Bush and his government weren't all powerful when it came to shafting the American people, I'll be happy to read it.

The Constitution.  It defines the workings of the Federal Government, including the interactions between the Executive and Legislative branches.

There's not a damn thing Bush has done in which the Congress has not been complicit.



You can't do it... thought as much. It's cool, really.

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 6:01:46 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

If you wish to point something out to me that would demonstrate Bush and his government weren't all powerful when it came to shafting the American people, I'll be happy to read it.

The Constitution.  It defines the workings of the Federal Government, including the interactions between the Executive and Legislative branches.

There's not a damn thing Bush has done in which the Congress has not been complicit.



You can't do it... thought as much. It's cool, really.

You didn't do your required reading.

And that, too, is the order of things.


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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 6:04:56 PM   
farglebargle


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Actually, it is the United States Attorneys who bring cases before the Grand Jury. Congress has nothing to do with the process.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 6:10:57 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

For cryin' out loud, the main premise for George Dubya's invasion of Iraq was about putting history straight - of fixing "one-term daddy's" half arsed mess of not finishing Saddam's reign when he really was empowered and in a stronger position to do so. 
 
One wonders where the World might be today if the Allies had called a halt once Hitler's forces were pushed back inside their own borders, too!  The current war may well be about oil, terrorism, democracy or plain ole "the right thing to do" etc - but in this case, it's also about family; that daddy fucked up and sonny was in a position to fix it, albeit with a little fabricated justification....
 
Focus.
While I am very happy Sadamm is no longer on the stage(pesky trap-door)"one-term daddy" stopped to avoid the very problems we are dealing with now .The what do you do after Sadamm thing is actually proving to be a bigger problem than Dear old Dad thought.....

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 6:21:59 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"There is no other side"...  Your entire political system is based on the idea that there is an other side to beat. As a matter of fact, the entire culture is based on this competitive ideology.
Kittin that might be how it seems ,might even tragically be how its played out,but thats not how its supposed to be.The two-party system is theoretically supposed to end at this country's shores.Foreign Policy is in principal supposed to be bi-partisan...unfortunately it does seem lately as if all these guys have forgotten that they all work for one electorate...namely the American people not the Democratic people nor the Republican people...the American people en masse

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 6:25:14 PM   
kittinSol


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Yes, America is a Republic.

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RE: Bush Misused Iraq Intelligence - 6/9/2008 8:29:50 PM   
pollux


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Fred Hiatt, Washington Post Editorial Page Editor:

quote:

Search the Internet for "Bush Lied" products, and you will find sites that offer more than a thousand designs. The basic "Bush Lied, People Died" bumper sticker is only the beginning.

Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence, set out to provide the official foundation for what has become not only a thriving business but, more important, an article of faith among millions of Americans. And in releasing a committee report Thursday, he claimed to have accomplished his mission, though he did not use the L-word.

"In making the case for war, the administration repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when it was unsubstantiated, contradicted or even nonexistent," he said.

There's no question that the administration, and particularly Vice President Cheney, spoke with too much certainty at times and failed to anticipate or prepare the American people for the enormous undertaking in Iraq.

But dive into Rockefeller's report, in search of where exactly President Bush lied about what his intelligence agencies were telling him about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, and you may be surprised by what you find.

On Iraq's nuclear weapons program? The president's statements "were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates."

On biological weapons, production capability and those infamous mobile laboratories? The president's statements "were substantiated by intelligence information."

On chemical weapons, then? "Substantiated by intelligence information."

On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information."


Delivery vehicles such as ballistic missiles? "Generally substantiated by available intelligence."


Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information."

As you read through the report, you begin to think maybe you've mistakenly picked up the minority dissent. But, no, this is the Rockefeller indictment. So, you think, the smoking gun must appear in the section on Bush's claims about Saddam Hussein's alleged ties to terrorism.

But statements regarding Iraq's support for terrorist groups other than al-Qaeda "were substantiated by intelligence information." Statements that Iraq provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other terrorists with ties to al-Qaeda "were substantiated by the intelligence assessments," and statements regarding Iraq's contacts with al-Qaeda "were substantiated by intelligence information." The report is left to complain about "implications" and statements that "left the impression" that those contacts led to substantive Iraqi cooperation.

In the report's final section, the committee takes issue with Bush's statements about Saddam Hussein's intentions and what the future might have held. But was that really a question of misrepresenting intelligence, or was it a question of judgment that politicians are expected to make?


After all, it was not Bush, but Rockefeller, who said in October 2002: "There has been some debate over how 'imminent' a threat Iraq poses. I do believe Iraq poses an imminent threat. I also believe after September 11, that question is increasingly outdated. . . . To insist on further evidence could put some of our fellow Americans at risk. Can we afford to take that chance? I do not think we can."





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