Planning for BDSM couples (Full Version)

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pinkpleasures -> Planning for BDSM couples (10/29/2005 11:16:53 PM)

i have never seen this matter as an Op; so i am taking the plunge. i realise that many BDSM couples/families do not marry, and this presents certain planning issues which need thrashing out and made to occur in the eventuality in question.

1st: Advanced Directives and Living Wills, in which one partner can dictate what to do medically with a person who is brain dead or who is near death.

2nd: A check of area hospitals to ascertain whether a non-family member can visit a patient in the ICU. It would be terrible to die alone; your partner barred from seeing you. If this obstacle exists, there may be ways to address the hospital's concerns.

3rd: Property; most importantly, the family home. Assuming that the partners wish their Ones to continue to own and occupy the home after the death or entrance to a nursing home, planning is necessary. Planning can also reduce the costs of probate.

4th: Children. If one party has minor children and wishes the other to raise them after their death, certain provisions must be made and the rights of the other parent cannot usually be overcome.

5th: A will for each party. Eventually both will die and presumably, if there is insurance or assets, there is a desire to see them distributed according to one's wishes.

IMO, there should also be planning for an end of the relationship. Will there be a financial grant from one party to the other for relocation or school? Will there be a division of household items? Will the family home be sold and the proceeds divided equally?

No two couples are alike; but i think such matters -- when attended to properly -- enhance the couple's sense of well-being and security.

P.S. Married couples have fewer planning issues as a rule, but still would be served best by a review of their assets, objectives, etc.

pinkpleasures



Kasia -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (10/29/2005 11:51:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

No two couples are alike; but i think such matters -- when attended to properly -- enhance the couple's sense of well-being and security.

pinkpleasures

Hi Pink Lady [:)]
In general, I agree with you.

Can only write from my own experience...... I had quite hard time deciding on marrying again. Since my first marriage lasted 17 years and ended in very painful disaster, I sort of promised myself never to marry again. Have relationships, eventaully live with someone for some time, but no legal commitments.
I just wanted to be free to walk away at any time without trouble.

But....... there are always buts in life..... I met someone who actually lived in another country. I moved to live with him first based on tourist visa, then prolonged that somewhat ilegally, then after a year we decided we wanted to stay together and it was not very possible like that. I couldnt legally work. I could get expelled from the country any time if I got caught. And my husband was always very concerned about what will be if something happens to him (he has pretty dangerous job). Not that I am that needy..... I have enough money of my own, but he just wants to "take care of me".
So we got married. And I am very happy we did.

Still, I remember when we went to register - my maid of honour grabbed my hand and told me "sorry, sweetie, but now is too late to run away" - somehow she sensed it was just what I wanted to do [:D]
If we were in our own country I suppose we would never get legally married - the laws are such that protect "companion" practically the same way they protect "the wife".



IronBear -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (10/30/2005 1:04:00 AM)

That pretty much covers things I think. Most of our closest friends list their religion at Hospitals etc as pagan and list me as their priest so I never have any issues in visiting in and out of visiting hours.



pinkpleasures -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (10/30/2005 4:22:28 AM)

quote:

That pretty much covers things I think. Most of our closest friends list their religion at Hospitals etc as pagan and list me as their priest so I never have any issues in visiting in and out of visiting hours.

IronBear


LOL; i can see myself telling some hospital admissions person that i'm pagan, LOL. But i'm a smart ass so it might be fun.

pinkpleasures



MissDiandSirHugh -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (10/30/2005 5:18:30 AM)

Never fear pinkpleasures they will put it on your card here as Sir once said he was a retired RC and that is what they put.
We were already married for 20 +s years when we began our new life style so it is still things as they were before going into it.
But thank you for posting this as we will be intrested to see what is added to it



fyreredsub -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (10/30/2005 5:32:43 AM)

this area needs to be covered in any LTR 24/7 relationship vanilla or bdsm.alot of people don't even consider these issues until it's too late and this is an area where being prepared is better than hindsight.

the Gorean board had a similiar topic awhile back as to what happens to the slave should anything happen to the master. quite a good read.very informative for those that are considering learning more.

all gives one good thought as to what to prepare for.....
the uncertain future.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (10/30/2005 6:54:03 AM)

Again the NCSF has classes and resources exactly for this for their Education Outreach Program, actual doctors and lawyers to assist with real life issue. I know in our local community we regularly get doctors and law professionals to come and speak about life and family planning issues.

Check out your local community and see what real life resources they can have for you.



pinkpleasures -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (10/30/2005 9:32:05 AM)

quote:

Again the NCSF has classes and resources exactly for this for their Education Outreach Program, actual doctors and lawyers to assist with real life issue. I know in our local community we regularly get doctors and law professionals to come and speak about life and family planning issues.

Check out your local community and see what real life resources they can have for you.

LuckyAlbatross


While i certainly approve of learning, a "little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing". In the legal arena, a lawyer you retain, who makes sure your issues are addressed and brings others to your attention, as well as assuring that whatever documents used are legally effective, is necessary.

pinkpleasures



FLButtSlut -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (10/30/2005 9:37:05 AM)

While the NCSF probably offers a great resource, there are a lot of people who are involved in the lifestyle privately and don't do "public" things, which would make seminars and such with the NCSF less than a desirable resource.

The issues that pinky raises are very important on the long term, and as fyreredsub said, important in kinky OR vanilla relationships where marriage has been decided against.

Another very important issue is the "co-mingling" of funds in relationships. It is very important in both BDSM and vanilla, but rarely in vanilla do you find a situation where one partner would assume ALL control of finances.

Needless to say this has been discussed ad nauseum with people weighing in on different issues. Masters and dominants who are worth a damn have all stated how they would never take all the financial assets and then keep everything should the relationship end.

Pinky (and I) are talking more about the subs being informed and taking the necessary steps to be sure that they DO have an understanding of the situation at hand. While the respectable masters and dominants who are going to make sure they take care of things in a responsible fair manner are not something to worry about, it is a wise thing for a sub (and her potential master) to speak with someone within the legal field to clarify issues. A "disinterested 3rd party" who isn't weighing in with what they think of the couple, but who is going to make sure that all parties are protected should the relationship end for any reason.

Also, while everyone wants to find that "perfect" relationship that will last and last, and the D/s dynamic makes things very different from vanilla in the financial aspects, the hurry for the "total control" that includes financial issues without the forethought and legal documentation for protection is just asking for trouble.

Preparing for an eventual end of a relationship is never pleasant (like parents writing their will at the birth of their 1st child), but it is a very important aspect that people need to think about, and while the NCSF can be a great resource, for those of us who don't participate in the public community of the lifestyle, other avenues and sources are an absolute necessity.

The point of pinky's post was the result of a discussion that her and I had regarding the possiblity of creating a web site where people within this lifestyle could go and seek information and answers to questions without being in a face to face public forum. This post is to gauge what kind of response such a site would get.



pinkpleasures -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (10/30/2005 9:48:37 AM)

FlButtlut is correct; a website is under consideration. However, i wish to make clear i oppose "cookie cutter" solutions and would request payment...but am currently only charging $75 and do not charge for an inital interview or for phone calls.

Having said that bit of self-promotion, i can also generally help a couple find a lawyer in their vicincity who will treat their BDSM issues respectfully, should they choose to do so.

Frankly, my concern is primarially women with children...i believe that a legally-binding document, protecting the woman, is a necessity. While a woman alone needs to protect only herself, a woman with children needs to protect them first.

The other concern i have, and have had, is the need for a bit of caution before pulling up stakes to move in with a Man one knows only from phone and possibly a brief visit. Two of my subbie girlfriends did just that and were put out without a nickel after moving...and they had previously had affordable homes they owned, as well as good jobs. One had a child. On the flip side, i would like to see Doms and Masters take steps to assure there will not be some member of the "fruits and nuts" brigade moving into Their homes.

So, again, i emphasize that becoming a couple; or joining a poly famiy; should be a time for reflection and planning to assure all know what to expect and what will occur in the event the relationship fails or the other dies.

pinkpleasures



OscarHargraves -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 8:54:04 AM)

This is probably one of the best and most thought provoking threads I've read yet. You have some really good ideas here and they should be followed up on. I know places like the 'coasts' have lots of groups and parties and get to have speakers like ES2 mentioned, but the rest of us out in the 'nether regions' could use this idea too and follow up on it.

Thanks Pink!!



perverseangelic -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 9:54:46 AM)

This is somethign that seems like a good idea for -any- couple, not just a bdsm oriented one.

I definatly see what you're saying and agree though, I think this is important for people who care about each other, especially if their caring is outside of the mainstream.

Heck, I worry what would happen if my partner got hurt. We're not married, I'm not family, -and- we're young. Would hospitals let me in?

I just learned about advanced dirrectives when I applied for state mental health care. While I don't think my mental illness will ever be sever enough to need it, I plan on setting one up in my partners name just in case.



sub4hire -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 11:31:25 AM)

Having seen a lot of death's. Spending time in a hospital doing an internship. Having close family member's die whom I had full control of their lives.

Advance directives are something good to have, however more often than not they do not work. If any family member happens to be there when something happens. They will do whatever that family wants. Whether it be a DNR order or to keep them alive.
The person who knows, then later has to sort it all out.
You can only hope they didn't disobey wishes and now you have life support to remove.

My last two close family death's ended that way. Advance directives were disobeyed. Bottom line is even though it has been talked about and signed. The doctor at the moment doesn't have that paper in front of them. They turn to whoever is there to do the right thing at the right time. Give them the answer they need. More often than not it seems to be the wrong answer.

As far as a family member visiting. No issue that I've ever had nor seen with that. If you are someones sub..and they are your Master. There should be some good solid bond and you are their next of kin. Otherwise you are just a mere play partner who doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things anyway.
Doug and I are not officially married yet but I am his emergency contact on every piece of paper he has. He is the same on mine.

The house, yes a living trust should be established. When you aren't family and a member of the family dies. Some families do tend to come in and do what they feel should be done, whether it is right or wrong.

If someone had children and they are divorced. I see this as being a hard situation to be in whether or not you've done it legally or not. Bottom line is those children will still have a living parent in most cases. Just because you want your children raised by your significant other does not mean the mother or father of your children is going to want a complete stranger raising their children.
It would be a hard battle no matter what was written down and notarized somewhere.

Definately a will or living trust needs to be established. Of course as we all know things can be challenged and turned over after death. So, I'd vote for a living trust and the executor of said will.




candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 12:52:26 PM)

you raise good points, sub4hire. This only underscores the need for legal planning. i do know from my gay friends that being excluded from the ICU on grounds the visitor was not "family" has actually occured; and to me that's an especially important issue to contend with.

candystripper



Soulhuntre -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 1:05:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
1st: Advanced Directives and Living Wills, in which one partner can dictate what to do medically with a person who is brain dead or who is near death.


I am not sure why this would, inherantly, have anything to do with BDSM service. I certainly have had people in my service who I had no intention of granting this type of power to and I know those who have served who would not with their liege to have this authority.

The underlying assumption of all this is that a BDSM / service relationship is simply another form of a "life partner" arrangement - and it often isn't anything of the sort.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
2nd: A check of area hospitals to ascertain whether a non-family member can visit a patient in the ICU. It would be terrible to die alone; your partner barred from seeing you. If this obstacle exists, there may be ways to address the hospital's concerns.


I would be much more concerned in making sure I went to the hospital with the best possible care. Their visitation issues are important but far from my final deal breaker.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
3rd: Property; most importantly, the family home. Assuming that the partners wish their Ones to continue to own and occupy the home after the death or entrance to a nursing home, planning is necessary. Planning can also reduce the costs of probate.


I solved this via a corporation. Most of the income generating assets in my house (mostly intellectual property) reside in an LLC and the LLC passes to my girls upon my death.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
4th: Children. If one party has minor children and wishes the other to raise them after their death, certain provisions must be made and the rights of the other parent cannot usually be overcome.


Agreed - assuming of course that the "passing on" of parental control is even desired.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
IMO, there should also be planning for an end of the relationship. Will there be a financial grant from one party to the other for relocation or school? Will there be a division of household items? Will the family home be sold and the proceeds divided equally?

No two couples are alike; but i think such matters -- when attended to properly -- enhance the couple's sense of well-being and security.


Abviously for BDSM relationships that are intended as "life partnership" these issues exist - for others none of this is an issue.



MsIncognito -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 3:55:01 PM)

One thing that needs to be added is Power of Attorney. This is important for any couple whether it's a married het couple, gay couples, poly groups or any other flavour of relationship.

Lacking power of attorney can make things extremely difficult for the family members left behind if they cannot deal with finances, access funds or make care decisions for someone who is alive but unable to make decisions for themselves.

It's also important to remember that non-immediate family members can throw everything into a tailspin despite your best planning. Wills can be contested, Powers of Attorney challenged, etc. If one is in any kind of non-traditional relationship (particularly a poly one) the lines become blurred and it can be difficult to determine who has legal right to act on behalf of someone who is incapacitated or who is entitled to the estate when someone dies.



MsIncognito -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 4:03:00 PM)

That being the case I'll say that:

(a) I'd never take legal or medical advice from a website and I would actively discourage anyone I know from doing so.
(b) It's kinda tacky to do your market research like this.

JMHO, of course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

The point of pinky's post was the result of a discussion that her and I had regarding the possiblity of creating a web site where people within this lifestyle could go and seek information and answers to questions without being in a face to face public forum. This post is to gauge what kind of response such a site would get.




ExistentialSteel -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 5:07:44 PM)

As far as the "A" part of your post, I disagree. The internet offers valuable resources in medicine and law. It is like the phone, know who you are calling for advice.



candystripper -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 5:29:04 PM)

quote:

That being the case I'll say that:

(a) I'd never take legal or medical advice from a website and I would actively discourage anyone I know from doing so.
(b) It's kinda tacky to do your market research like this.

JMHO, of course.

MsIncognito


quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

The point of pinky's post was the result of a discussion that her and I had regarding the possiblity of creating a web site where people within this lifestyle could go and seek information and answers to questions without being in a face to face public forum. This post is to gauge what kind of response such a site would get.


There is source material on the web i trust; "Science" and "Nature" as well as "The New England Journal of Medicine" come to mind. Of course, most/all these sources are paid sites.

In law, generally one can obtain a statute or possibly a regulation; but what one cannot replace is the lawyer's training and the exhange of information with a real life client. As i said in my "pink" persona, i oppose the use of "cookie cutter" solutions. Considering that many/most/all the most important aspects/eventualities of one's life as a BDSM partner/family member are touched by the law, this is not the time to skimp. The Op was a way to raise the issue, inasmuch people agonise over what mode of address or honorific to use, but may not have considered their life choices in legal terms. Insofar as this may also serve a selfish purpose of "market research", so what? No letters were knocked off the alphabet in writing these posts.

candystripper



MsIncognito -> RE: Planning for BDSM couples (11/1/2005 7:09:42 PM)

It's not something I would do or encourage anyone I know to do. Perhaps you missed the JMHO part of that post?

Sorry to semi-hijack here, but I read in a "pink" post of yours in the last day or two that you don't have a profile on the 'other side' yet now you not only have a profile on the other side you have a completely new profile and name as well. Is there a reason for using two profiles?

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
There is source material on the web i trust; "Science" and "Nature" as well as "The New England Journal of Medicine" come to mind. Of course, most/all these sources are paid sites.

In law, generally one can obtain a statute or possibly a regulation; but what one cannot replace is the lawyer's training and the exhange of information with a real life client. As i said in my "pink" persona, i oppose the use of "cookie cutter" solutions. Considering that many/most/all the most important aspects/eventualities of one's life as a BDSM partner/family member are touched by the law, this is not the time to skimp. The Op was a way to raise the issue, inasmuch people agonise over what mode of address or honorific to use, but may not have considered their life choices in legal terms. Insofar as this may also serve a selfish purpose of "market research", so what? No letters were knocked off the alphabet in writing these posts.

candystripper



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