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The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:05:01 AM

cpK69

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A recent thread caused me to consider this idea closer. I have abilities, and opportunities; but rights? I don’t think so.

Not to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

None of these things have just been handed to me. If they were rights they should be, and without consequence.

I have to work for these things, and only get to keep them, if I am responsible toward them. Even then, there’s no guarantee.

Do you have rights?

Post #: 1

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:11:09 AM

atursvcMaam

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One may have the rights they are willing to defend and hold on to. Once they are given away, they are gone.

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RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:15:17 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Do you have rights?

Yes you have rights. We all have rights.

To say that a thing may be taken from us does not disparage our right to that thing. To argue that we must be vigilant to protect our rights does not render them moot.

Rather, rights exist to delineate civil right from civil wrong. Rights, however we conceptualize them, form the framework within which a just society may be defined.

Without rights, the concept of justice has no meaning.

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RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:36:59 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Yes you have rights. We all have rights.

I consider the things I am capable of, due to abilities and opportunities to be liberties; not rights.

Having rights implies I am entitled to something; I see nothing that I am entitled to.

quote:

Rather, rights exist to delineate civil right from civil wrong. Rights, however we conceptualize them, form the framework within which a just society may be defined.

Like what we have going on in the US?

quote:

Without rights, the concept of justice has no meaning.

I disagree; justice has nothing to do with “rights”, but instead, liberty. And the idea that it does, is most likely the very thing that causes many to go without.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 4

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:40:57 AM

MadRabbit

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The pursuit of happiness means you get to pursue it, not have it handed to you.

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RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:47:41 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The pursuit of happiness means you get to pursue it, not have it handed to you.

I agree, which is why I was a bit surprised that the idea had been promised to the people of the US, in the Declaration of Independence.

Further more, if my happiness infringes on someone else’s liberties, I am even less entitled to it. (That is if one can be less entitled then not entitled)

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 6/10/2008 10:48:45 AM >

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Post #: 6

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:49:56 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

I disagree; justice has nothing to do with “rights”, but instead, liberty. And the idea that it does, is most likely the very thing that causes many to go without.

Liberty:

quote:

1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.

2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.

3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

quote:

1. That which is just, morally good, legal, proper, or fitting.

quote:

1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.

2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.

3. the moral principle determining just conduct.

4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.

Liberty is a right--that is true. As the words are generally used, liberty of itself is not--nor can it be--the sole foundation of a just society.

Is the US a just society? No, not perfectly so. To the extent that it is comes from those rights that are protected and celebrated within our society. To the extent that it is not comes from those rights that are scorned and denigrated by that same society.

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RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:52:15 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The pursuit of happiness means you get to pursue it, not have it handed to you.

I agree, which is why I was a bit surprised that the idea had been promised to the people of the US, in the Declaration of Independence.

Further more, if my happiness infringes on someone else’s liberties, I am even less entitled to it. (That is if one can be less entitled then not entitled)

Like a lot of stuff in the Declaration of Independence, it's a very noble ideal, but not entirely grounded in reality.

As far as the second statement, I don't see where the hang up is on that. It seems pretty logical to me that if your pursuit of happiness denies someone else any pursuit of happiness, then you probably should find a different pursuit of happiness.

Kind of like owning a slave for example....

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Post #: 8

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 10:57:39 AM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The pursuit of happiness means you get to pursue it, not have it handed to you.

I agree, which is why I was a bit surprised that the idea had been promised to the people of the US, in the Declaration of Independence.

Further more, if my happiness infringes on someone else’s liberties, I am even less entitled to it. (That is if one can be less entitled then not entitled)

cpK69 not really a promise but a declaration of certain inalienable rights endowed by the creator that one is born with,comes into the world with and must make of what one will.A set of basic liberties that we all start out with...where we finish is basically up to us...that is the premise anyway...and how your basic rights can infringe on another is beyond me ,for this to happen somewhere along the line someone is not adhering to the basic compact of a free and just society IMHO

(in reply to cpK69)

Post #: 9

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 11:10:07 AM

atursvcMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Yes you have rights. We all have rights.

I consider the things I am capable of, due to abilities and opportunities to be liberties; not rights.

Having rights implies I am entitled to something; I see nothing that I am entitled to.

quote:

Rather, rights exist to delineate civil right from civil wrong. Rights, however we conceptualize them, form the framework within which a just society may be defined.

Like what we have going on in the US?

quote:

Without rights, the concept of justice has no meaning.

I disagree; justice has nothing to do with “rights”, but instead, liberty. And the idea that it does, is most likely the very thing that causes many to go without.

     You have the right to say this, as one has the right to take it to heart, or ignore it. One has the right to try and correct the ills of the world, or in their own lives, or simply to complain about them. One also has the right and liberty to work to correct those ills in their own way. i have the liberty to find out who is collecting food or contributions, and who distributes it in a fair and timely fashion.
         i have the right and liberty to decide who is using a contribution to do good, rather than to feed their bellies or line their pockets at the expense of those in need.
          i wish to retain the right of that choice.   Others do have the right to disagree.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to cpK69)

Post #: 10

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 11:14:56 AM

cpK69

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Right- something I am entitled to

Liberty- something I earn and keep, if I am responsable toward it

Justice- the ability to fulfill my capabilities, according to my willingness to do so, without hindering or being hindered by others

Freedom- lack of responsability toward something

quote:

Is the US a just society? No, not perfectly so.

Not even close.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 11

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 11:16:28 AM

celticlord2112

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You have the right to use words howsoever you choose.

The rest of the world has the right to move on to more productive discussions.

The end.

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RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 11:23:07 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Like a lot of stuff in the Declaration of Independence, it's a very noble ideal, but not entirely grounded in reality.

I'm not so sure about that.

quote:

As far as the second statement, I don't see where the hang up is on that. It seems pretty logical to me that if your pursuit of happiness denies someone else any pursuit of happiness, then you probably should find a different pursuit of happiness.

And yet...

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 13

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 11:37:14 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

You have the right to use words howsoever you choose.

The rest of the world has the right to move on to more productive discussions.

The end.

As if the contextual meaning of words changes because someone wrote a definition for them in some book.

I did not make up the meanings; the fact that “the rest of the world” follows those definitions without question is a hindrance to my liberties, which you have claimed I have a right to.

And that means… what? (rhetorical question)

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 14

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 12:08:19 PM

slvemike4u

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cpK69 i might be missing something here and if so feel free to point it out to me.My confusion is thus...You state that the U.S.is not even close to a just society please supply me with the alternative you have in mind.You state that we do not "have" rights accpt those for which we are able to claim due to our individual abilities,yet if yours were to be arbitrarily infringed would you not avail yourself of the legal remedies open to you.No compact devised by man is perfect though it is my contention The Declaration and the Bill of Rights comes as close as any man has devised....you scoff at these declaration's what is it you would propose...just wondering...

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RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 12:45:39 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Like a lot of stuff in the Declaration of Independence, it's a very noble ideal, but not entirely grounded in reality.

I'm not so sure about that.

quote:

As far as the second statement, I don't see where the hang up is on that. It seems pretty logical to me that if your pursuit of happiness denies someone else any pursuit of happiness, then you probably should find a different pursuit of happiness.

And yet...

I'm afraid that vaguely alluding to grand and wise thoughts as if somehow we should all immediately understand your brilliance isn't going to convince me of how smart you are nor is changing the definitions of words and wording of phrases to support your arguments, whatever those arguments are.

In fact, it's making think a lot less of you, because I have been trying to figure out what exactly you are argueing against and it just seems to be a lot of double talk with a pretentious image of the profound attached to it in attempt to obfusticate the fact that you can't provide a consistant argument.

Discussing issues works a lot better if you clearly state your viewpoint as opposed to alluding to things that you assume we understand...

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The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to cpK69)

Post #: 16

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 1:43:23 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

cpK69 i might be missing something here and if so feel free to point it out to me.My confusion is thus...You state that the U.S.is not even close to a just society please supply me with the alternative you have in mind.

The alternative is rather difficult to describe at this time, because people are so caught up in the rut we are presently stuck in, they have a hard time seeing any other way.

What I can do, however, is point out how the society we live in is not just.

People are individuals, with individual needs, capabilities and circumstances; yet, we have laws that are a “one size fits all” fix, for keeping a group under control.

Because most see the world in terms of “right” and “wrong”, many of these laws are based on someone’s perspective of ethics. A concept which, in of it’s self, is faulty.

We have government, which regulates resources in order to profit off of the one’s they supposedly represent. It also squanders resources in an acquisition of power unto itself, under the guise of “helping others”.

Much of the "news" is lies or half truth, spread as truth, which causes informed decision making rather difficult; if not impossible.

quote:

You state that we do not "have" rights accpt those for which we are able to claim due to our individual abilities,

Actually, I am saying I don’t believe (at this time, it is still a theory) we have rights at all.

quote:

yet if yours were to be arbitrarily infringed would you not avail yourself of the legal remedies open to you.

Running to the “authorities” is a last resort for me; other then to possibly find out the best course of action to avoid, or protect myself against a situation.

My resolve toward this is for two reasons; first, the present judicial system is more about how much money one has to defend themselves, then justice; and two, I have come to realize, every time someone runs to them to fix something, it gives them just cause to make more laws. Ironically, it is generally the honest people who follow said laws; therefore, they are about useless.

quote:

No compact devised by man is perfect though it is my contention The Declaration and the Bill of Rights comes as close as any man has devised....you scoff at these declaration's what is it you would propose...just wondering...

I’m not sure I would say I mock them; it depends on what the purpose was.

I’m more inclined to believe they are well crafted documents, designed to lead people to believe they are entitled to something they’re not, while taking away the one thing they actually should have; liberties.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 17

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 2:07:04 PM

slvemike4u

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Still at a loss as to what you are trying to say .When you say "one size fits all"I am baffled, law must be the same if we are to achieve equal treatment under the law ,which is by the way the ideal of it.Than you go on to say this is all in place to keep the group in control,I say thank god for that.I am not so impressed with the idea of unfettered man allowed to or better yet depending on the better angels of his nature.No man needs law to control his baser instinct ,to curb his natural tendancy to take what he wants and or needs..I prefer the "group under control"rather than man allowed to run amok...As far as your belief we don't have "rights"and since you rejected my example of what you would do if yours were infringed ...allow me to assure you if you are anyone else were to infringe on mine I know and have appropriate avenues of recourse including but not limited to the courts of the land,which I while acknowledging having money helps,do not believe are for sale...Lastly you refer to well crafted documents where i see my birthright and my children's birthrights they are from time to time under atack,usually by reactionary factions but they are in fact the very bedrock of what it means to be an American ...imperfect to be sure but till something better comes along I am more than content to live under their guarantees...

(in reply to cpK69)

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RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 2:10:48 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Like a lot of stuff in the Declaration of Independence, it's a very noble ideal, but not entirely grounded in reality.

What is noble about basing the beliefs of a country on lies "not entirely grounded in reality"?

quote:

As far as the second statement, I don't see where the hang up is on that. It seems pretty logical to me that if your pursuit of happiness denies someone else any pursuit of happiness, then you probably should find a different pursuit of happiness.

And yet, there are so many who go about their business, with little to no concern over the consequences of their actions on someone else.

quote:

I'm afraid that vaguely alluding to grand and wise thoughts as if somehow we should all immediately understand your brilliance isn't going to convince me of how smart you are

Wow, I was only shooting for common sense.

quote:

nor is changing the definitions of words

My definitions came from contextual usage. How this is perceived as my changing the definition, is truly baffling.

quote:

and wording of phrases to support your arguments, whatever those arguments are.

If I should not word phrases to support my arguments, how should I word them?

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 19

RE: The biggest human fallacy “I’ve got rights” - 6/10/2008 2:25:49 PM

kittinSol

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Your rights are protected by law. You're a human being: you have rights, whether you like it or not. What exactly are you arguing about?

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