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Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 7:25:19 AM   
Gwynvyd


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Status: offline 		We have all heard the token phrase to Err is human but to forgive is devine.

It is usualy tossed out there when someone steps on your toes.. and  you are being reminded to be a decent person and forgive them.

But what happens when things are not merely toes being stepped on.. but soul crushing things?

How do people move past this and simply forgive?

The Amish community were looked down apon for so swiftly forgiving the school shooter who held captive and killed some of thier children. They took in the shooters family, and comforted *them* for the crime thier son had committed. ~ To the rest of us this was so alien.. so odd that many of us could not wrap our heads around it. Why, why forgive? Why so soon? Why comfort the shooters family?

In this day and age of litiagtion crazied people.. and selfish me me me thinking... why go to his parents house, hold them, feed them.. and tell them it is ok.. it's not your fault, we forgive him.

On this Fathers Day I am reminded of all of the people who had rough upbringings.. and the healing that is needed. It has been a hard road myself to forgiving my own father. It is something I struggled with as a young girl.. and something I strugle with now. I know that the forgiveness is not *for him* it is for me. It is *my healing* I need. He is dead and gone.. and even if he was alive he would not care for my words, or feelings of regret and sorrow for the years lost.

Kalista had mentioned that: In the end, forgiveness is about me.....not about the other person at all.
 
I think she realy got to the heart of the matter there.
 
Forgiveness is always about Us.. not the person we are "forgiving" often they couldn’t give a fig less.. or do not need our forgiveness. We do. We need it to heal. To move forward. Even when others do us some grievous harm, or injustice... the forgiveness that is most needed is that of ourselves. We feel guilty for having allowed it to happen. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves. Allowing it to be Ok to be human.. to be imperfect.. to have been harmed, insulted, or just hurt.
 
I think that is why it is so hard to forgive. We are our own toughest critic.. our own worst enemy. Sometimes at every turn we see what more we can be doing, what more we can be, what more there is for us to accomplish. We rarely look to see what it is that we have done, the people we have helped, the wonderful people we are.
 
So it is with this that I ask each of you to think on forgiveness. Is it a gift? How can we help heal ourselves by forgiving.. and moving past that which has harmed us in the past?
 
I am doing a sermon on forgiveness on Aug 3rd ( National Forgiveness Day) at my church and you all inspire me so much.
 
( yes Greedy you need to put in for the day off now! )
 
Gwyn

< Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 6/15/2008 7:29:31 AM >

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 7:43:31 AM   
Kalista07


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Status: offline 		Gwyn,
This is such a mixed and confusing topic for me personally... There are times when i feel like i don't even know what forgiveness is....  One of the best definitions i was taught about fogiveness is it's "giving up the hope of a different or better yesterday."  One of the reasons i think i like that so much is it reminds me that it's not about me, as much as it's about the process....
My limited experience with forgiveness is somewhat sketchy....  My dad was an abusive, bastard of an alcoholic growing up.  He physically, emotionally, and sexually abused me until i left his house (age 19). My relationship with him was so rockey, there were times when i did not have any communication at all with him. This was not about him or what he had done, but it was about me....It was needing to take the time in my life to realize and affirm to myself that i did not deserve to be degraded and belittled.  However, when he became ill somehow (a truly bizarre turn of events that is for sure) i became the child who stepped up to the plate... i was the one there with my mom everyday for those 10 days... i was the one who spent most of the day and night in the ICU with him.  i am the one who struggles now with the image of that strong man, who had become weak, in pain, restrained, and suffering.  Something extremly spiritual happened for me in that time in the hospital. i had always dreamed, fantasized, and imagined what these days would be like. The problem? i had developed too much grace and dignity to act out any of those thoughts...i had developed too much humanity.  So, one of the last days he was alive he was just moaning in pain (something that i truly hope no other person has to endure) and my mom went outside for a cigarette. i went over to him and began rubbing his shoulder.  And i whispered to him that i had forgiven him and then i prayed asking God to just allow him into heaven.
That might not sound like a lot to many people, but in my experience it was freaking amazing... Seriously,  in my past i had such issues with 'God' and forgiveness that even though intellectually i knew it was only me it was harming, i could not let him off... i felt that somehow to forigve meant to let him off the hook...As if somehow forgiveness means making it all okay, and evading the person of responisibility.
My problem with this subject is now that i've experienced it i know how to do it..... But what keeps me from doing it? a year ago today i was at home and began chatting with someone through CM.  a year ago next weekend i would end up there raped, beaten, and attacked..... i have not found either the ability or the willingness to forgive them yet. And i'm not sure why.... In all reality, i guess the person i need to forgive the most is me... The person i'm the angriest with is me....
grrrr...
Kali

< Message edited by Kalista07 -- 6/15/2008 7:48:01 AM >

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 7:49:14 AM   
MissSCD


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Status: offline 		I think true forgiveness is a gift.  It took me five years to forgive my ex husband for cheating on me.  I can actually sit down with him and have dinner again as long as I did not ride in the same vehicle because he is too dangerous with vehicles. 
Next, I have this cousin.  He is 70 years old.  If a person could hate another, he would fall in that category.  I am letting go, but  haven't forgotten what he did to me at Christmas this year.
I don't believe in automatic forgiveness because you have to allow yourself time to really give it up.  The trick is not to allow it to consume you as I did with my ex husband. 
As for my cousin, I will not go in the same house that he is in.
 
Regards, MissSCD

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 7:51:25 AM   
Kalista07


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Status: offline 		There are times when i'm acutely aware that i know just enough to make me very dangerous to myself.... In re-reading my previous post it appears as if the time has come for me to deal with the rape and all the aftermath crap of it... *sigh* i blame myself the most, and although i understand that's not healthy it still remains the reality of the situation.  Long ago i was taught that if i knew something was the right thing to do, and was unwilling to do it then i needed to pray for the willigness...It seems to me that now it's very pertinent for me to pray for both the willingness and ability to forgive myself and those involved with the rape and what not.
Gwyn, thanks so much for posting this thread. It has helped me through today, and i feel so much more at peace now than i did when i first got up.
Kalista


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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:01:29 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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Status: offline 		i think forgiveness is a gift.......to your self.....it frees you from the grip of the thing you are forgiving.....kind of like turning a page in a book to me......in a bob segar kind of way.




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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:06:48 AM   
Lynnxz


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Status: offline 		I suppose it's a gift more to yourself than anything. Besides, if you see yourself as giving the other person some amazing gift that they may or may not deserve, are you really forgiving them?

And yes.. to me forgiving is healthy... it does you do good to sit there and bottle up your emotions, and be bitter and petty and hurt about things ... especially when you are out of the situation that it occurred in.

Personally, I try not to let things bother me too much. If need be, I'll cut someone out of my life, but that doesn't mean I haven't forgiven them- it just means that I've decided we are better off apart.


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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:11:41 AM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

There are times when i'm acutely aware that i know just enough to make me very dangerous to myself.... In re-reading my previous post it appears as if the time has come for me to deal with the rape and all the aftermath crap of it... *sigh* i blame myself the most, and although i understand that's not healthy it still remains the reality of the situation.  Long ago i was taught that if i knew something was the right thing to do, and was unwilling to do it then i needed to pray for the willigness...It seems to me that now it's very pertinent for me to pray for both the willingness and ability to forgive myself and those involved with the rape and what not.
Gwyn, thanks so much for posting this thread. It has helped me through today, and i feel so much more at peace now than i did when i first got up.
Kalista



*hugs* Father moves in Mysterious ways...

I also have a past simular to yours as you already know... my abuse was with my brother, and my sister. Many hospital trips, Dr's office visits.. and angry nights wanting to harm them, or myself later I am much more at peace with it then I ever thought I would be.

Fathers Day always makes me introspective like this.. and seeing so many others having gone through things just brings it more to the surface.

Most victims of rape blame themselves. It is very often that the attacker is someone they know 3 out of 4 in fact. This makes it even harder to forgive. We think we should have seen it comming. We should have sensed something.. we should have known better. We should have protected ourselves better.

It is the most personal attack and crime. It is also the hardest to forgive. So I totaly understand where you are comming from. We know intelectualy that it was not our fault.. we did nothing to bring it on.. and they would have done it to someone else if it had not been us.

I hope you do find peace and forgiveness *hugs* it is so hard going through life shattered with out it.

Gwyn

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:14:14 AM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

I suppose it's a gift more to yourself than anything. Besides, if you see yourself as giving the other person some amazing gift that they may or may not deserve, are you really forgiving them?

And yes.. to me forgiving is healthy... it does you do good to sit there and bottle up your emotions, and be bitter and petty and hurt about things ... especially when you are out of the situation that it occurred in.

Personally, I try not to let things bother me too much. If need be, I'll cut someone out of my life, but that doesn't mean I haven't forgiven them- it just means that I've decided we are better off apart.



*nods* diffantly a gift to ourself.. and forgiveness does not mean you have to keep the toxic person about.

often it means forgiving, and letting them go. ( at least in my life it has)

Gwyn

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:25:30 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		Forgiveness helps us far more then the person we are forgiving.  Forgiving allows us to let go of anger that would otherwise fester in us and grow like a cancer.  Imagine if you are angry at 3 people and don't let go of it, how that angry energy will effect you.  Meanwhile, it does nothing to the people you are directing it toward.

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:28:12 AM   
Kalista07


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Status: offline 		reminds me.....i was taught that anger and resentment are like taking poison and expecting the other person to die...

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:33:09 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

i was taught that anger and resentment are like taking poison and expecting the other person to die...



That's very true. I wish that knowledge was easier to apply practically at times. I suppose practice makes perfect.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/15/2008 8:41:30 AM >

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:37:33 AM   
lusciouslips19


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Status: offline 		I was taught by a metaphysical minister that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.  When  you dont forgive you are enslaved (in a bad way) to the person you wont forgive. You drag them around with you like they are on an invisible cord. When you forgive, you release yourself from the chains that bind you to them. You are free of them. When you forgive, you  forgive the act, not the actor.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 6/15/2008 8:38:52 AM >

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:39:52 AM   
dovie


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Status: offline 		Gwynvyd,

Really tough one, especially on this day. I'm not going to church this morning because the topic will be all about celebrating 'Father's Day." so...here I thought I had done my forgiveness work and healing, and...wowsa!

I agree, forgiveness is a gift to ourselves. The intention is to free your inner spirit, take away power from the other person.
It continues to be a struggle for me, especially on days like today...

Thanks for the topic Gwynvyd...A powerful reminder to stay connected to the good that I am, and the good that surrounds me.

dovie

< Message edited by dovie -- 6/15/2008 8:43:12 AM >

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 8:47:52 AM   
smilezz


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Status: offline 		I don't think it's a gift at all.

Forgiveness is a "Choice"....


~smilezz~

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 9:00:56 AM   
pinksugarsub


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Status: offline 		When i turned 45, i wrote letters to A/all who had 'wronged' me, including my ex.  It was a watershed point in my life. 
 
Prior to turning 45, i believed that keeping a sh*t list of P/pl who had f**ked me over was some measure of retribution -- some way to 'right the wrongs' and take back a measure of control.
 
But at 45, i changed my thinking on this.  i realised that there was quite a 'carrying charge' for maintaining a sh*tlist. In fact, i'd never have an opportunity to 'right the wrongs'.  And i probably wouldn't take it, even if i did, just to avoid any further contact with these P/pl.
 
So yes, i agree with the Op: regardless of who, what, where, or how Y/you have been wronged, it is a gift you give Y/yrself when Y/you forgive and let go of the anger. 
 
i don't think i could take it as far as the Amish did after the school shootings though. 

A/anyone who seriously f**ked with my UM would need to fear for T/their very lives.  i'm a true 'barracda mommy'.  i can't honestly say i foresee that changing, ever.
 
pinksugarsub

< Message edited by pinksugarsub -- 6/15/2008 9:05:41 AM >

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 9:03:49 AM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		I have grudges old enough to be protected by historic-preservation laws, so I'm no expert on forgiveness. That said, I do have a few thoughts on the subject.

(a) It may be helpful to distinguish between the elusive (for me, at times) feeling of forgiveness and the choice, as Smilezz noted, to act in a forgiving way. Even though I can't always shed my resentments toward certain people, I can refrain from acting out (and likely deepening) my feelings in my actions toward them.

(b) I sometimes think of forgiveness as adjusting the zoom lens on a camera. When I'm mad at someone, it's as if I've zoomed in all he way on the fault/misdeed/whatever, shrinking my image of the person to nothing but that. Making the decision to forgive can be like pressing the wide-angle button so that I see the person whole. It's not denying whatever upset, but seeing that as simply part of the whole image.

(c) For food for forgiveness thought, the story of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) may be worth wrestling with. It seems to me that both the father and the elder brother face a choice between resentment or relationship. The father chooses relationship, forgiving the prodigal and celebrating his return. The elder brother seems inclined toward resentment, which threatens to poison his relationship with his father as well as his brother.

Hope this helps!

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 9:10:39 AM   
Sundowner


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Tricky one this. What's the opposite or starting point? I guess blame.

I find I don't forgive people because I don't "blame" people - I try to understand them. Not in a saintly way, I can easily find I don't much like them, but I can often see broadly where they're coming from and thus why they've acted "badly".

So I dunno Gwyn - I'm no expert - but it might be easier in life not to need to forgive at all, simply don't blame; works for me.

But then one's into a different area - trying to understand why something occurred, trying to work out if someone should be held responsible (a bit different from blaming them), are they at fault (again, different from blame)?

So I rarely blame anyone for anything, thus no need to forgive them. But I might certainly disapprove of their actions, or of the culture which prompted that action, and I might certainly dislike them. Or I might "blame" myself!

Simple example - at work everything is, ultimately, my fault. Someone forgets to carry out a task; could be for a number of reasonable reasons; could well be because I didn't help them understand how important it was, or I gave them too much to do. Or they may be lazy and incompetent in which case my fault for hiring them. There are few things which I cannot trace back, ultimately, to being my responsibility, thus my "fault". Understanding that makes it a lot easier to handle problems.

But another example - my sub is quietly driving through a junction when a drunk shoots a red light, smashes into her and kills her. So why was he drunk and why was he a bad driver? I can try to understand those problems - they're unlikely to be my fault - but I might get to appreciate why it happened. Could be his wife died in his arms that morning and he drank to forget. But could be he was partying and he was too stupid to understand he shouldn't drive. Maybe his IQ is just too low to register, or he was badly brought up and was allowed to become a selfish thoughtless person. There could be a hundred and one reasons why it happened. Trying to understand the reasons can help one not to go down the blame path. Doesn't mean I'm happy about it, but it can help me to handle it.

So it's not a miracle answer Gwyn, but trying to avoid blame can help in my view and - once acquired - is an easy habit.   (But it doesn't stop me being an evil bastard when appropriate).

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 9:11:34 AM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		Forgiving the sins of others is a gift we give ourselves.

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 9:14:13 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Somewhere I read the line "Forgiveness is the best revenge"...    It's true, I think.  I am not a forgiving person.  I am not a Christian,  I don't believe the creators of the universe give a rat's what I do or don't do, it's all about me and the life I lead.  And, I want to lead a good life, where I help people and do my best to make others' path easier. 

I will never forgive my former slave for being an abusive psycho.  I finally forgave MYSELF for choosing him in the first place, and allowing my loneliness to trump my common sense.  I will never forgive my grandmother for ruining my mother's life (and poisoning my own) for so many decades, but I had no problem sitting for hours holding her hand during her last days.  I still haven't forgiven myself for not protecting her enough from her doctors, but that's another story.  

I am amazed by the grace and dignity of those Amish families.   Of course the family of the shooter deserved comfort as much as anyone~~imagine if it had been YOUR child doing something so hideous?  I don't know if I could be so open if something like that happened to my family.  It's an example to strive toward, I think. 

Thanks for this thread, Gwyn!

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RE: Is forgiveness a gift? - 6/15/2008 9:24:30 AM   
stella41b


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Status: offline 		My parents wanted a girl, a daughter. When I was born, male, I paid for their disappointment through suffering. My parents went out of their way to f*ck up my life any which way they could. My gender issues which came out at 13 only made things much worse. I've been abused emotionally, sexually and physically. I played my own part in my childhood, my younger sister who lives about six miles from me across the Thames doesn't want to have anything to do with me.

My mother died at the age of 43, weighing over 400lbs, lonely, misunderstood, unhappy. My father died at 64, bitter and angry, struggling for breath for some time due to a lung disease, until a stroke finally claimed him.

I do not and cannot blame my parents for what happened. I live my life according to Buddhist philosophy, I believe in both reincarnation and karma.

I disagree that forgiveness is a gift. It is an ability which can be developed by practice. It is letting go. Forgiveness is power, for sure, I can relatiate, I can seek revenge, or I can show strength through forgiving someone. This is where the power lies, in showing that I have the strength to forgive, to let go, and to move on.

In less than a month I will be 42, I'm going through gender reassignment, there's so many things in life I am waiting to share and enjoy, things other people have and know, things I am still waiting for.. I don't have time for personal conflicts or battles, I have enough difficulties as it is, and devote enough energy to coping with those difficulties. I am not a victim, I refuse to be either a victim or a special case, I'm just me, Stella, different.

In a perverse way I'm grateful to my parents for what they did and for putting me through the childhood they did. It's made me stronger, more powerful, more able to deal with the difficulties I go through, the effects of my childhood lie deeply rooted in my character.

Forgiveness to me is a choice, it is an ability which lies in all of us, if only we care to make that choice and let go.

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