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Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/15/2008 9:36:30 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		So I ask, why are the people of Iowa not crying and complaining about the government as much as New Orleans did with its flood?

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/15/2008 9:44:12 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe because there are not 800 dead and the river rise was slower than the Hurricane so people had more time to evacuate.

There is access to affected areas and no shortage of food and water.

I also think the state agencies are doing a much better job and not depending on FEMA

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/15/2008 9:45:58 PM >

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/15/2008 9:44:51 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Another interesting observation, despite a levee breach flooding another major US City, no helicopters are being fired upon, no SEAL teams are having to retreat and regroup after being driven back by hostile forces, there is no disorder, no need to send Blackwater Security in with tanks and helicopters to restore peace... DesMoines seems downright tranquil....

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/15/2008 9:45:33 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Maybe because there are not 800 dead and the river rise was slower than the Hurricane so people had more time to evacuate.

There is access to affected areas and no shortage of food and water.

Butch



no superdome either. 

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/15/2008 9:53:55 PM >

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 5:02:20 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		When the levees burst in Cedar Rapids, they moved on a moment's notice.  It wasn't an evacuation before the flood got to them.  It was an "Oh shit!  We'd better move" scenario.  I was actually on the phone with a friend while she and her fa,ily were moving
The people of Iowa did something that many didn't in New Orleans.  They worked together.  Many residents of NOLA simply said "Screw you" when asked to evacuate.  They didn't want to be bothered.  While many of their neighbors tried to sandbag and prepare in NOLA, so many watched and didn't lift a finger to help.  It was this same crowd who was breaking in and stealing the stuff from those who evacuated after the flooding from Katrina caught them.
In Iowa, they went through this in '93.  I was there for it.  They  learned from it.  When it came time to sandbag, people came out in droves.  When someone needed to evacuate, their neighbors helped. 
Had people in NOLA used the time the hurricane was approaching to better prepare, there wouldn't have been 800 dead or a shortage of food or water.  As for Iowa, they do have a shortage of water in Cedar Rapids.  All but one pumping station in the city was down.  People fought and saved that one with sandbags and generators.
The attitude was what made the difference.  Too many people in NOLA thought thatit couldn't happen to them or that someone else would take care of them.  The people in Iowa remembered that it had happened to them before.
I bet if another big hurricane starts coming towards NOLA right now that the people there won't act the same way they did.  Those that had the guts to return and rebuild know what can happen and won't rely on others to do for them.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 5:10:36 AM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		Also, state and federal government help showed up the next day... they didn't wait a week and a half before responding.

"Heck os a job, Brownie!"

Also, Iowa is filled with white people. As others have noticed, that seems to play a part in George Bush's (and the GOP's in general) decision making process.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 5:20:21 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Also, state and federal government help showed up the next day... they didn't wait a week and a half before responding.

"Heck os a job, Brownie!"

Also, Iowa is filled with white people. As others have noticed, that seems to play a part in George Bush's (and the GOP's in general) decision making process.


Its a hell of a lot easier to get help to people who arent shooting at you... I know for a fact that coast guard helos from CG Air Station Houston had to break off the rescue to RTB so as to be reconfigured for armed rescues - as if they were extracting downed pilots in hostile territory. Sucks that the people in NOLA had to wait, but the Coast Guard pilots arent there to be shot at... If they could have flown the choppers without having to go home to get the Kevlar belly pans and ceramic seatplates and door guns in place, things would have went a wee bit faster. Generally people are happy to see the rescue swimmer, they dont try to kill him.

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 6/16/2008 5:21:26 AM >

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 5:42:59 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Also, state and federal government help showed up the next day... they didn't wait a week and a half before responding.

"Heck os a job, Brownie!"

Also, Iowa is filled with white people. As others have noticed, that seems to play a part in George Bush's (and the GOP's in general) decision making process.

Since I used to live in Cedar Rapids, I'm calling the bullshit flag.  The areas hit hardest by the flooding in that town are the predominantly african american neighborhoods.  It had nothing to do with "saving the white people."  
My aunt lives very close to the affected area in Des Moines. Its not a white only area either.  In fact, most of the folks I see when I go to visit her are not white.
I've been drunk in that neighborhood a few times.  Des Moines is a pretty decent place as far as cities go and they seem to be fairly well integrated.  I think your info is a bit behind the times with regard to Iowa.
The fact is that people learned from past fuckups and did better because of it.  The authorities also didn't have to worry about the destruction of the roads leading to the places like they did during the Katrina aftermath.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 8:24:25 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		There seems to be two underlying themes in the posts above.

The First is the people of New Orleans were too busy robbing and stealing or too dumb to evacuate or sandbag because they were blacks.

The second is FEMA did not help the people in New Orleans because they were blacks and politically did not support the Bush administration. But did help in Iowa because they are white republican and politically important for McCain’s election.

Damn what crap…just imagine how you sound to someone who lost a love one or all they owned in these tragedies.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/16/2008 8:25:07 AM >

(in reply to Irishknight)
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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 8:28:28 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There seems to be two underlying themes in the posts above.

The First is the people of New Orleans were too busy robbing and stealing or too dumb to evacuate or sandbag because they were blacks.

The second is FEMA did not help the people in New Orleans because they were blacks and politically did not support the Bush administration. But did help in Iowa because they are white republican and politically important for McCain’s election.

Damn what crap…just imagine how you sound to someone who lost a love one or all they owned in these tragedies.


....i tend to agree. As IK has suggested i find it far more likely that those involved in disaster response have learnt from past errors.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 8:30:53 AM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline 		ty kd

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 9:45:19 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The First is the people of New Orleans were too busy robbing and stealing or too dumb to evacuate or sandbag because they were blacks.

The second is FEMA did not help the people in New Orleans because they were blacks and politically did not support the Bush administration. But did help in Iowa because they are white republican and politically important for McCain’s election.


Did I say that it was because they were black?  Nope.  Many of those who did listen and prepare were black.  Many who didn't were white.  The facts are that many did not see the need to evacuate or sandbag because they thought that someone else would take care of it.  They did not comprehend what was coming at them.  Many who could have evacuated or been evacuated did not.  The people in Iowa had been through this 15 years ago and made the extra effort.  Many in NOLA didn't see the need and many people paid for it.

As far as the shooting and shit goes, the bullets were probably gray.  Just a guess.

Only one person has tried to blame anything on them being black.  Since the majority of the people in the affected neighborhoods in two of the larger cities hit were black, the claim of only helping whites doesn't stand up.  Again, is it possible that FEMA learned something from their NOLA fuck up?

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 9:57:34 AM   
shorty21


Posts: 126
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Des Moines
Status: offline 		OK...I call bullshit as well considering I am in Iowa and in Des Moines...First off...who gives a shit what color we are because we actually listened to the police when they came knocking on the doors in any of our neighborhoods. Mostly affected here in Des Moines WERE not white....

So speaking from experience of having worked the NOLA clean up, most people in NOLA did not evacuate even though they were given plenty of time. I was living in Florida and as soon as they said "Hey um...just to be safe were evacuating Miami until we see where this thing goes" I got my fluffy ass up, got my daughter, and went north!

Now then, as far as Iowa being racist or a bunch of white people needing to be saved, thats crap. How can Des Moines and Cedar Rapids and other places being affected up here be racist when all we did was use COMMON SENSE? Cops come to your door saying "Hey we need you guys to evacuate by such and such time because this looks to be worse than the floods of 93" most of us are not only going to move were gonna do it VERY fucking quickly. Yes we've had a BAD BAD flood about 15 years ago. So maybe this has nothing to do with what was or was not learned in NOLA. Maybe it's the fact that we've been through this shit before and know how to be ready and where to go.

I guess in the end...I call major bullshit.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 10:08:02 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shorty21

OK...I call bullshit as well considering I am in Iowa and in Des Moines...First off...who gives a shit what color we are because we actually listened to the police when they came knocking on the doors in any of our neighborhoods. Mostly affected here in Des Moines WERE not white....

So speaking from experience of having worked the NOLA clean up, most people in NOLA did not evacuate even though they were given plenty of time. I was living in Florida and as soon as they said "Hey um...just to be safe were evacuating Miami until we see where this thing goes" I got my fluffy ass up, got my daughter, and went north!

Now then, as far as Iowa being racist or a bunch of white people needing to be saved, thats crap. How can Des Moines and Cedar Rapids and other places being affected up here be racist when all we did was use COMMON SENSE? Cops come to your door saying "Hey we need you guys to evacuate by such and such time because this looks to be worse than the floods of 93" most of us are not only going to move were gonna do it VERY fucking quickly. Yes we've had a BAD BAD flood about 15 years ago. So maybe this has nothing to do with what was or was not learned in NOLA. Maybe it's the fact that we've been through this shit before and know how to be ready and where to go.

I guess in the end...I call major bullshit.

  We are glad you got out of the way.  My family up there was starting to get a bit worried about the rising water too.  A few more blocks and it would have caught my aunt.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 10:09:59 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		What should have been learned from NOLA is that it was never FEMA's job to avert natural disasters or rush in immediately after to rescue everyone.

FEMA only has a few thousand employees for the whole country, and their purpose is to offer guidance when the locals set up their own disaster preparedness plans, because it it going to be locals first on the scene of any event.
Likewise the Army Corps of Engineers is supposed to get the locals the resources to build their own sturdy levees.

If the local 'leaders' undermine plans that worked elsewhere by pocketing the money, or otherwise not holding up their end of the bargain, then perhaps an appropriate share of the blame should be reserved for them? 

(in reply to shorty21)
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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 10:17:16 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Also, state and federal government help showed up the next day... they didn't wait a week and a half before responding.

"Heck os a job, Brownie!"

Also, Iowa is filled with white people. As others have noticed, that seems to play a part in George Bush's (and the GOP's in general) decision making process.


Its a hell of a lot easier to get help to people who arent shooting at you... I know for a fact that coast guard helos from CG Air Station Houston had to break off the rescue to RTB so as to be reconfigured for armed rescues - as if they were extracting downed pilots in hostile territory. Sucks that the people in NOLA had to wait, but the Coast Guard pilots arent there to be shot at... If they could have flown the choppers without having to go home to get the Kevlar belly pans and ceramic seatplates and door guns in place, things would have went a wee bit faster. Generally people are happy to see the rescue swimmer, they dont try to kill him.


And the Coast Guard was in NOLA right away!
They didn't "wait" like Fema. They went right in.
Also, Des Moines' mayor is not Ray Nagin. 'Nuff said.

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RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 10:18:37 AM   
shorty21


Posts: 126
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Des Moines
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

What should have been learned from NOLA is that it was never FEMA's job to avert natural disasters or rush in immediately after to rescue everyone.

FEMA only has a few thousand employees for the whole country, and their purpose is to offer guidance when the locals set up their own disaster preparedness plans, because it it going to be locals first on the scene of any event.
Likewise the Army Corps of Engineers is supposed to get the locals the resources to build their own sturdy levees.

If the local 'leaders' undermine plans that worked elsewhere by pocketing the money, or otherwise not holding up their end of the bargain, then perhaps an appropriate share of the blame should be reserved for them? 


As far as NOLA goes they should have done forced evacuations. The human rights people would have had a field day with it BUT there would NOT have been so many casualties. Going to NOLA and cleaning up was...the least I can say disturbing and mindbending. When you go into a house searching for bodies it gets gross. To find a man, woman, or child floating in the water is heartbreaking, and quite gross to see the inflated water drenched bodies. Then you have to wonder WHY they didn't listen and get out?!?! Why didn't they take the NOLA police seriously. Then we have this fucked in the head Mayor who made sure his ass got out ok. FEMA is ALWAYS a back up plan. If things up here had gone much worse and our local officials could not have handled setting up rescues or other such things we needed then I could see the Mayor or even our Governer calling in FEMA. Then again here in Des Moines we have th national guard base less than 4 miles out of downtown.

FEMA is never first choice as it is mostly Volunteers who spend and devote their own time to helping those of us affected by natural disasters.

I guess what I am getting at is I agree with what I've quoted....NOLA should have been better planned out and prepared.

Then again looking back over the 3 years after Katrina...it turns out to be a bunch of shoulda coulda woulda. I am sorry for those who died in NOLA. I am sorry for those who got stranded without food or water. And I know I will probably be cyber hung for the next comment, but damned if I haven't lived through a few hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, and other things mother nature throws at us in her PMS times, but dammit LISTEN to your officials. When they say HEY GET THE FUCK OUT!!! its for a good reason. And PLEASE PLEASE don't shoot at the Military or the volunteers who are trying to help. I'll post pics later on after work of my nice BULLET fucking hole in my arm from being shot for removing a body

_____________________________

If i knelt before you with my heart in my hands...would you take my heart and break my body...or break my heart and take my body??

F*ck PMS... This bytch has PMDD!!!


Crazier than a cracked out squirrel on Adderall...

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 10:20:05 AM   
shorty21


Posts: 126
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Des Moines
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Also, state and federal government help showed up the next day... they didn't wait a week and a half before responding.

"Heck os a job, Brownie!"

Also, Iowa is filled with white people. As others have noticed, that seems to play a part in George Bush's (and the GOP's in general) decision making process.


Its a hell of a lot easier to get help to people who arent shooting at you... I know for a fact that coast guard helos from CG Air Station Houston had to break off the rescue to RTB so as to be reconfigured for armed rescues - as if they were extracting downed pilots in hostile territory. Sucks that the people in NOLA had to wait, but the Coast Guard pilots arent there to be shot at... If they could have flown the choppers without having to go home to get the Kevlar belly pans and ceramic seatplates and door guns in place, things would have went a wee bit faster. Generally people are happy to see the rescue swimmer, they dont try to kill him.


And the Coast Guard was in NOLA right away!
They didn't "wait" like Fema. They went right in.
Also, Des Moines' mayor is not Ray Nagin. 'Nuff said.


damn right our mayor has some common sense...lmao

oh..and like i said in last post...we have the national guard about 4 miles out of downtown....BUT most of our guys are occupied in Iraq..lucky us huh?

_____________________________

If i knelt before you with my heart in my hands...would you take my heart and break my body...or break my heart and take my body??

F*ck PMS... This bytch has PMDD!!!


Crazier than a cracked out squirrel on Adderall...

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 10:23:33 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Alumbrado is spot on here ,the blame for what happened in NO allways seems to fall on the Feds.Where were the local authorities,where was the NOPD.Certainly there were failures at every level ,but one would think local government and Police departments would do their best during an emergency rather than sit back and wait for the Fed to come in....Than their is the personal responsibility factor ,granted some that stayed could not get them selves out,but their were plenty that could have that didn't for whatever reason....Blaming Bush and Co. is easy and popular but in this case it is also faulty and convenient

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Iowa vs New Orleans - 6/16/2008 10:27:46 AM   
shorty21


Posts: 126
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Des Moines
Status: offline 		Yep, I'd like to blame bush for all of it, but heres the thing. The mayor in NOLA held the NOPD BACK until FEMA and NG got there. Even then we were busy fighting in Iraq at the same time. So...we had people as low as a CMA (certified Medical Assistant...me) pulling bodies out. We even had people from the ARL and ASPCA come to get stranded pets. As soon as we get close enough to help we get shot or some even just flat out refused to come with us. So I guess I'm saying it was not ALL of the local governments fault either.

I guess everyone in hurricane zones learned when they say go...it means GO! Hell after Andrew in Miami I don;t think anyone who went through it like us will EVER try to ride it out...fuck that noise.

< Message edited by shorty21 -- 6/16/2008 10:29:30 AM >

_____________________________

If i knelt before you with my heart in my hands...would you take my heart and break my body...or break my heart and take my body??

F*ck PMS... This bytch has PMDD!!!


Crazier than a cracked out squirrel on Adderall...

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 20
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