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RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 5:08:16 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		We use a hand signal during play, thumbs up or down.  Thumbs up means that everything is okay and I am in a positive mental headspace.  Thumbs down means that my headspace is negative and/or things are not going okay for me.  Most of the time the hand signal is used when he asks "How are you doing?", but I am allowed to use it without prompting.  When he gets a thumbs down, he usually asks for more detail and then makes a decision of what he wants to do next.

It may appear to some that using this hand signal places me in control, but it doesn't.  He has the authority within our relationship and within play.  As the authority figure, he has stated that I am to use this signal to inform him of how I am doing during play.  It is an informational tool only and he then makes the decision of what to do from there.

We also do a play that he calls "Playing to Red".  We have talked about this play on the boards before, so I won't repeat previous posts unless you want more detail.  Essentially, he uses one instrument, puts us in a certain position and whenever we are in that position he hits us with the toy. Play only stops when he thinks we are done.  Calling 'red' or saying 'I can't take anymore' only gives him information regarding our mindset; he then decides whether play continues.

We are also instructed not to censor ourselves during play.  It is a time for Alandra and I to completely let go and react.  What he doesn't like, he controls.  The way I most often react is by hitting him back, but I also know that it will only escalate the intensity of the play and not diminish it.

In general, I think it depends on who has dictated that the bottom will use 'yellow'.  If the bottom is dictating that it will be used, then that is an area where authority has not been given to the dominant.  If the top dictates that it will be used, then the authority for it's use lies with the top.

For us, not using the hand signal or controlling our reactions during play is to be disobedient.  At any time though, he could change the parameters of our play, i.e. no longer use hand signals.

Knight's Kyra 

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 5:10:28 PM   
slaveluvs2btied


Posts: 9
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		i dont like to feel like i can dictate any part of a scene when i am submitting to someone completely. i want to take anything they choose to give me and anyway they choose to use me. Though when i am first getting to know someone, (and this all depends on how comfortable i am with them) i do like to use words such as "yellow" to help them learn about the way i react to things.... most Dom's want to see the reaction.

(in reply to NeedingMore220)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 5:55:19 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

If you are in a scene and the sensations you are feeling are too intense or too painful...and you use your "yellow" word to get the dominant to back down a bit, are you not controlling the scene? Are you really submitting FULLY to the will of the dominant? Now I am NOT talking about communicating what you believe will be impending damage. Just when it feels too intense for your comfort.



Depends on the situation.

If it's my birthday (or a similiar day) and I'm getting a scene whose entire purpose is to make me feel good and bring me to subspace, then why shouldn't I tell him if I'm not enjoying something? If he wants me to have pleasure, withholding the information that I'm not enjoying myself seems contrary to his desires. Submission isn't always being a martyr after all, sometimes we do play with my pleasure being the goal. Sometimes we play and I'm not enjoying a damn thing and just hoping it's over soon.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 6:01:21 PM   
mzbehavin


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline 		i noticed the title line was 'Stop it or back off, thats too intense.'
And i would agree, put like that, the bottom would seem to be controlling the scene. Personally, i'd not express myself in that manner as it seems disrespectful somehow.
That said, im not a pain slut, when i delve into erotic pain exploration, i tend to need more gentle handling. ("This weeks safe word is banana"  FamilyGuy. lol~)
So, I'm not a slave. I'm not a pain slut, its not a way of controlling the scene, its a way for him to gently lead me where we want to go without traumatizing me.  Really the only times i've had to use words to vocalize distress it was something small like a clamp tweaking my nipple ring wrong. (Owwwwwwwwwwwwww)
He took it off right away thank God.  Another time i fussed over the rope being cinched too tight, in that instance it wasn't a binding rope, but an artfully arranged in a strategic place suspension rope, in which case he laughed and clicked it 2 notches tighter. Once your tied down, theres no delusions of who's really in control anymore. At least for me.
For the non maso s-types, vocalization is a good way to avoid negative reactions/experiences during edge play.
Besides, if he gets tired of the noise, theres always the ball gag.
grins*



_____________________________

There's never really a good time for the whole Man to Beast thing...Just kind of~Whaum! and hope for the best...
ToTo from The O.Z.

(in reply to slaveluvs2btied)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 6:04:38 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I have often seen people post about not being able to "take" as much as the dominant wishes to give. I've felt that way myself at times. But if you use the word....isn't that taking (or attempting to take) control of the scene?


Hmmmm.....lemme think now...one second, it's coming to me.....oh wait....I have it now....

Uhhhhhmmmmm.....NO!!!!!

I think not!

I think (and this is of course, just me talking here), a safe word is to stop the PAIN from going directly and STRAIGHT INTO my CEREBRAL CORTEX!!!!!!
(But...again, that's just me).



< Message edited by Griswold -- 6/16/2008 6:05:16 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 6:12:11 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
The difference is in how one uses the safewords and what the expectation is.
I still use them even with Elegant who has been my slave for 9+ years.
Yellow= Sir I have a level of distress right at what I believe to be my limits (now do as you will with the information)
No control implied, no epectation that it will result in anything other than me having the information I need and require.

A safeword for me within my relationship is a call for communication of information that the slave wants to give me, nothing more.
Now outside of my long standing relationships they may or may not have negotiated a different expectation of safewords and I'll abide by what I have negotiated in those cases.

Ditto.  If I use a word of communication to get someone to do something- it's taking over.  If I use a word of communication just to communicate an idea and accept their judgement- it's informing the chain of command.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 6:29:57 PM   
NeedingMore220


Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Depends on the situation.

If it's my birthday (or a similiar day) and I'm getting a scene whose entire purpose is to make me feel good and bring me to subspace, then why shouldn't I tell him if I'm not enjoying something? If he wants me to have pleasure, withholding the information that I'm not enjoying myself seems contrary to his desires. Submission isn't always being a martyr after all, sometimes we do play with my pleasure being the goal. Sometimes we play and I'm not enjoying a damn thing and just hoping it's over soon.


That's a very good point.  Geez, I'd kill for a 'birthday session' right about now. 

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 6:30:52 PM   
Prismfire


Posts: 48
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline 		I watched a scene one time that to this day I still think was one of the most beautiful scenes I have ever seen..  The bottom used hand signals raising a finger for each raise in intensity level.... and lowering when the intensity dropped... There was no other communication but I think it was an exceptional method of communication.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 6:41:20 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Unless I'm playing with my owner, I'm *not* submitting when I bottom.  I'm often dominating, even.  I play as at least equals on an authority hierarchy - equals, or I'm the dominant one.  So, if it's too intense, I absolutely tell the top - or ask them if it's closer to egalitarian - to ease up.

With my owner, I can ask him nicely to ease up on the intensity - but I don't otherwise try to tell him how to play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Okay, this is just my brain twisting some thoughts around and I'm wondering what others think. I do not want this to be a thread about safewords...but about one of the reasons some people say that they want to have or use safewords...particularly "yellow" or its equivalent. For the purpose of this thread I will just refer to it as "yellow" but you can feel free to insert whatever word you personally use.

If you are in a scene and the sensations you are feeling are too intense or too painful...and you use your "yellow" word to get the dominant to back down a bit, are you not controlling the scene? Are you really submitting FULLY to the will of the dominant? Now I am NOT talking about communicating what you believe will be impending damage. Just when it feels too intense for your comfort.

I have often seen people post about not being able to "take" as much as the dominant wishes to give. I've felt that way myself at times. But if you use the word....isn't that taking (or attempting to take) control of the scene? I'm not talking about begging or pleading in hopes that he will have mercy. I'm not talking about crying or screaming if you have to in order to deal with it. I'm specifically referring to the submissive setting the parameters of the scene by the use of such words.

Thoughts?

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 6:45:03 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

But more to your second Q, Thes thing I expect is that she communicate distress, that reaches the level she thinks are about all she can take. Certainly After that I take the information into account and then do what I belive is right. Sometimes that's stopping sometimes it's backing off that thing and shifting tactics to another toy or style of play, and other times I just push right on through. I make the call, but I make it with as much information as I can get.



This is how we work with this, as well.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 7:03:43 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I'd just like to say once again that I did not want this to turn into another safeword thread and it's not about impending injury.

What happens if you go past "this is too much"? When it's too much is there loss of composure? uncontrolled sobbing that you recover from fairly quickly when the pain stops?.....or something more serious that warrants slowing it down or stopping such as a mental injury? catatonia during recovery? PTSD? If it's any of the first group....are those valid reasons for a submissive to limit the scene?

As a "D" type, how do you recognize or differentiate between the two groups?

Also, as an "s" type, if you have done so, what were your emotions in retrospect?  


Hi Erin,

It's a great question, and one I want to answer carefully.

There have only been a couple of times when I thought the pain would be too much to bear.  In the beginning, he would pull back quickly, of his own accord, since our relationship was still fairly new, as were my experiences with BDSM.  Someone with my lack of exposure could have easily have been traumatized, or scared away from BDSM activities forever.

Over time, he came to realize his developing sadistic side, having nothing to do with inflicting pain.  In short, the man enjoys my suffering.  Pain goes away as soon as it begins.  In the scenario I mentioned earlier where I didn't think I could take anymore, he was so happy that I endured it that he showered me with praise and affection when it was over, and I was happy as can be.

But he inflicts suffering without the use of physical pain, and that's what I want to answer your question about.  Without getting into details here (Erin feel free to email me if you want to delve into this more deeply), he has put me in situations that have been agonizing and pretty mind boggling (and not in an enjoyable way).  One in particular comes to mind, in which the torment was so great I seriously thought my mind would crack.  When he eventually ended what he was putting me through, after a 2 hour ordeal (which felt like 2 days), I drifted into a la-la frame of mind, and was humming nonsensical tunes in a completely different sphere. 

When he pulled me out of that headspace, I freaked out.  I was frightened, refused to move, and when I finally did move, my body shook uncontrollably and I collasped in a ball of sobs.  It took a long time for him to calm me down.  The effects of this particular situation were also quite big.  It took over a week to "recover" and not without him having to step in and fix things.  I went on an emotional journey which was very difficult, and which ultimately made me realize I have given this man the power to crush me.

The long term effect was a bond that became stronger than ever, a deeper commitment to my submission to him, and his desire and success at taking what he did and "kicking it up a notch" and my begging him to do so.  Basically he has taken me to dangling over the edge of my mind and pulled me back again, and found so much pleasure in doing so that it became a fairly common activity.  He loves watching me mentally struggle to "hang on" for him, and because it gives him so much pleasure, I cringe but dive right in.

As a result on a personal level, it has made me much stronger.  There have been a lot of life circumstances I've been up against that I didn't think I could handle, but I would reflect on what he had put me through and thought if I could endure that, then surely I could endure anything.  It particularly helped me during the worst days of my father's bone cancer.

Since then it has become a way for us to journey together.  This is why I tend to not use language such as "scening" or even "play", because at times for me it is much different than that.  And I wouldn't say this type of relating to each other is better or worse than other ways.  It's just our way, and it is how we commune with each other, and how I face the things in life I need to face.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 7:09:37 PM   
HornyToadsMI


Posts: 287
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		Here is my 2 cents.....LOL...

Boss expects me to communicate.  We made that one of our requirements in our relationship.  He admits He is not a mind reader.  So, if the situation dictates, and His blow causes something other than the desired effect, then He expects me to tell Him.  Yellow to us means "i need to regroup".  Then we continue. 

_____________________________

i have the best job in the world - my Boss whips me!!!

Go with your gut - yes, I am being a Smart Ass!

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 7:13:19 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
What is the limit of how much pain one can take? I really am asking this in all sincerity. If there is no impending damage that will occur if the intensity is not lessened...what would be the concern of continuing or even stepping it up? I'm really not sure if "this hurts too much" is a viable limit.


The concern is what too much would do to the relationship, to the psyche of the s type. If they feel that it's too much, that the D doesn't care about the effect on the s, then that's the beginning of the end. Possibly not to a heavy masochist, but to many of the rest of us it would be.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 7:47:32 PM   
taige


Posts: 5
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline 		Asking for a minute to catch your breath is "controlling the scene"?   Wow.  The more I read around here, the less I think I'm cut out to be a submissive on any level.

Well, that's what I'm here to learn, after all.

(in reply to DominantJenny)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/16/2008 9:28:45 PM   
mzbehavin


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline 		taige, You will get so many different points of view here. I'm glad you're here to learn. Learning what we dont feel as our own kink is part of the process.
One thing that took me awhile was learning to not let others ideals define my own. Be true to who you are, the rest will follow.


quote:

ORIGINAL: taige

Asking for a minute to catch your breath is "controlling the scene"?   Wow.  The more I read around here, the less I think I'm cut out to be a submissive on any level.

Well, that's what I'm here to learn, after all.


_____________________________

There's never really a good time for the whole Man to Beast thing...Just kind of~Whaum! and hope for the best...
ToTo from The O.Z.

(in reply to taige)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/17/2008 12:24:40 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Okay, this is just my brain twisting some thoughts around and I'm wondering what others think. I do not want this to be a thread about safewords...but about one of the reasons some people say that they want to have or use safewords...particularly "yellow" or its equivalent. For the purpose of this thread I will just refer to it as "yellow" but you can feel free to insert whatever word you personally use.

If you are in a scene and the sensations you are feeling are too intense or too painful...and you use your "yellow" word to get the dominant to back down a bit, are you not controlling the scene? Are you really submitting FULLY to the will of the dominant? Now I am NOT talking about communicating what you believe will be impending damage. Just when it feels too intense for your comfort.

I have often seen people post about not being able to "take" as much as the dominant wishes to give. I've felt that way myself at times. But if you use the word....isn't that taking (or attempting to take) control of the scene? I'm not talking about begging or pleading in hopes that he will have mercy. I'm not talking about crying or screaming if you have to in order to deal with it. I'm specifically referring to the submissive setting the parameters of the scene by the use of such words.

Thoughts?

I use a hand signal. I simply raise a hand signal if I feel the senstion is in the category of 'not good'.
'Not good' can mean anything from too intense at this time, or I am uncomfortable in some other way (too cold), or feel faint, or 'not yet;. (Not yet usually means that the sensations of having the tens removed, or clamp removed, ot after sting of cane/crop has not yet fafded.
A hand signal is just a communication. It is not a form of directive as in stop! The signal is not me telling the D what to do. However most responsible players know that I will use a signal. Even the most sadistic player will take the time to ask either for more information or as is usual to stop anyway. I'm 50% of the equation afterall.


_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/17/2008 4:00:09 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
The long term effect was a bond that became stronger than ever, a deeper commitment to my submission to him, and his desire and success at taking what he did and "kicking it up a notch" and my begging him to do so.  Basically he has taken me to dangling over the edge of my mind and pulled me back again, and found so much pleasure in doing so that it became a fairly common activity.  He loves watching me mentally struggle to "hang on" for him, and because it gives him so much pleasure, I cringe but dive right in.

As a result on a personal level, it has made me much stronger.  There have been a lot of life circumstances I've been up against that I didn't think I could handle, but I would reflect on what he had put me through and thought if I could endure that, then surely I could endure anything.  It particularly helped me during the worst days of my father's bone cancer.

Since then it has become a way for us to journey together.  This is why I tend to not use language such as "scening" or even "play", because at times for me it is much different than that.  And I wouldn't say this type of relating to each other is better or worse than other ways.  It's just our way, and it is how we commune with each other, and how I face the things in life I need to face.


Thank you for this owned. One of the things that I was pondering is that on those occasions where I was hanging on that edge, just as you said...... whether it be a physical edge or an emotional one, if I had not suppressed the urge to assert some control or "yellow"....how much growth might I have lost? how much could I possibly have lessened the resulting bond? Can saving yourself some discomfort in the short term carry a heavy pricetag in the long term?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/17/2008 4:49:38 AM   
pixidustpet


Posts: 857
Joined: 6/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Yellow= Sir I have a level of distress right at what I believe to be my limits


See, that is where I think I am confused. What is the limit of how much pain one can take? I really am asking this in all sincerity. If there is no impending damage that will occur if the intensity is not lessened...what would be the concern of continuing or even stepping it up? I'm really not sure if "this hurts too much" is a viable limit.


i get where you're coming from.  and while there might not be any lasting damage done to me, there are times when i HAVE to call halt.  if i'm having a day when i can barely stand to keep clothing on because it hurts, but i must because air touching my skin hurts worse, then yeah, i might very well hit back if i'm smacked on certain areas.  TheEngineer hit one zone by a fingerwidth and was horrified to see me burst into tears.  when in all actuality the force wouldnt have reddened my skin in any other place.

having a broken nervous system sucks.  its not fair, its not right, it prevents me from doing things we both like.  so proper protocal for playing with *me* has to include the question of 'how bad are you hurting today' because if he doesnt, there is the probability of not being able to play for several days after. 

yes, its individual.  if i were healthy, this wouldnt even be something that crossed my mind.  but since i'm not....its something we will ALWAYS have to work around.

kitten, resigned.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/17/2008 5:16:13 AM   
simonross


Posts: 27
Joined: 12/18/2007
Status: offline 		I find the word AMBER is useful, especially when you are working with a new sub, or one who is inexperienced. After a few meetings, the need for an interim safeword goes away.

Simon

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Stop it or back off....that's too intense... - 6/17/2008 7:14:05 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with Archer, for Me yellow isn't about the sub having control, it's about them providing information. Then it's entirely up to Me whether I intensify, continue at the same intensity, back off for a while and then re-intensify or switch to a different play. And which I choose depends upon My motivation and aims at the time for the play. If I am exploring initial boundaries with a new sub ... yellow tells Me what they can take at that time and I am more likely to back off or switch to a different play. With an experienced sub, especially one known well by Me, I am more likely to want to extend their boundaries a bit and so I might continue in one way or another. While I am reading the situation in terms of body language (and never rely only on a safeword) ... it is extra valuable information and I like to make informed decisions. Also, as a Domme I generally get off on taking them to pleasurable places ... so knowing something is definitely not pleasurable is information I appreciate. So I am always willing to hear about a cramp or a pinching rope etc as I don't want those sensations to take their focus away from the specific pain I am trying to inflict and My desired outcome for them.

As a sub, Master uses yellow in the same way. As W/we don't get to play all that often lately for various good reasons, when it does happen, He is very much wired for it to be enjoyable for both of U/us. So He appreciates all the feedback i can give Him. In the early days, there was a scene where i sensed i was heading for a particular wall that needed to come down ... He was starting to become concerned about my bodily reactions ... that was a time when i was grateful to be able to say "green Master, please ... GREEN ... i need this!" He took me at my word and continued ... and while He got a fright when i suddenly burst into deep sobs and tears ... He was heartily relieved when i managed to sob out "good tears! GOOOOD tears!" For U/us there has to be trust on both sides ... and that is developed through communication ... and one of those forms of communication is the appropriate use of safewords.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to simonross)
Profile   Post #: 60
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