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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 7:34:25 AM   
Archer


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Contraceptives not available???????? can't throw a rock 100 ft without hitting a place you can buy a condom.
Convienience stores, grocery stores, drug stores, gas station bathrooms (at least the men's side),
Sponges and foams are a little tougher only every grocery and drug store have them.
And if the rates of cigarette and alcohol sales to minors are an indication then the age restrictions are a joke.
Otherwise the methods tend to require medical perscription, but that's only right and safe that they do.
I don't think it's availability I think the issue is the lack of thouht to use the available methods.



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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 7:38:15 AM   
kittinSol


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Sex education absolutely sucks - it needs major revision. It follows use of contraception sucks. And barrier methods aren't the most reliable - not by any means. And rubber prophylactics are expensive. And women are reliant on the men to use them. And the men don't always feel like using them. The list goes on.  



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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 7:39:35 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

stelization is a radical idea.  and whom decides it?
Well, the big benevolent government nanny of course.It's one of the last decisions not surrendered to them, so far, out of their power.

To the OP; "blame the victim"; is that 'new-speak' for wanting personal accountability? If that's the case - GUILTY.

In a society legitimizing entitlements it should have been expected that a forgone conclusion would be that instead of being considered lazy for not taking personal imitative a person would be considered a "victim". A victim of what exactly is an answer never forthcoming.

A victim of mandatory public education; formally sufficient but now merely a babysitting service providing ongoing rationalization training for entitlement and 'religious' indoctrination to such idols as political correct-ism and environmentalism. Never needing proof, existing on faith based worship, under the idolatry expressed by the unchallenged acrimony of 'good intent'. Instead of educating a generation of technicians and inventors it graduates a populous of doomsayers seeking a benevolent nanny government who knows better than they do.

The philosophy has become so pervasive that even at a free site such as CM, the entitlement crowd believes they have 'rights' and should have authority to make decisions above those providing access. AMAZING! People - whether CM or life - you're entitled to NOTHING! Where you are in life needs to be earned. When you wonder who is responsible for you lot in life the only asset you need is vision and the only tool a mirror.

Sterilized? Why not. Start with requiring licensing and commitment to be personally accountable for progeny produced and it may be voluntary. "You mean I have to be personally responsible for my kids or sterilized!?" Snip - snip!

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 7:39:50 AM   
Archer


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To the OP possition I think this piece goes a bit too global village for my taste.
If you're going to support the global poor on a global dole then perhaps the real solution is in relocation of the poor rather than trying to support millions of people on a land mass that simply doesn't have the resources.
People move when the motivation reaces a certain point assuming they have the ability.
Feed the poor in an area that simply is overtaxed in its ability to produce food and you end up futher reducing the productive capacity of the place.

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 7:42:26 AM   
Archer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Sex education absolutely sucks - it needs major revision. It follows use of contraception sucks. And barrier methods aren't the most reliable - not by any means. And rubber prophylactics are expensive. And women are reliant on the men to use them. And the men don't always feel like using them. The list goes on.  




But none of that speaks to availability of contraceptives. It speaks to a lack of several other social factors but not availabity.



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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 7:47:48 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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Think it's part 7 of this vid wherein the good professor discusses the fallacy that it's the developing world that is straining the Earthy's biosphere and resource base. It is the US which is using up resources in the never-ending quest for consumer crap.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=PlayList&p=6A1FD147A45EF50D&index=0&playnext=1
The entire video is worth watching, IMO.

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:00:54 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Sex education absolutely sucks - it needs major revision. It follows use of contraception sucks. And barrier methods aren't the most reliable - not by any means. And rubber prophylactics are expensive. And women are reliant on the men to use them. And the men don't always feel like using them. The list goes on.  




Women have the choice of saying "No" if a guy refuses.  If they want to avoid unwanted pregnancy and disease, they have a Responcibility to say "No."
 
If they fail to say "No" after his refusal, they Deserve that pregnancy or bout with disease, because they failed to take Personal Responcibility for their own lives.
 
Condoms aren't that expensive, and in every state I've been in there have been clinics all over the place that handed them out for free either for pregnancy prevention or disease prevention.  The same health clinics that pass out various forms of the Pill provide them routinely. 

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:04:45 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

If they fail to say "No" after his refusal, they Deserve that pregnancy or bout with disease, because they failed to take Personal Responcibility for their own lives.



Woah. So simple, aye  ?

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:10:08 AM   
mhawk


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even when i have gone into the day shelters for women to speak to the clients, there is massive avalibility of condoms avalible for the asking including at many low income health clinics.most i have run into that i now of from those times of speaking in places like that,most of those women continue to have sex without protection because they want to please their boyfriend/husband/f*buddy.

they don't stop to think "hey,i've got 4 kids already,let's use protection,or why not go to the clinic and get on low cost birth control".      on the saem hand they can more than afford it since they are living off the system and averaging more a month on EIC and assistance than most make on a regular paycheck.

i've had some aske me where they can cash their state assistance checks and have shown it to me and average more than i made working 10 hour days at $7.50 and up an hour 6 days or nights a week.

so in that case as i said before,yes some should be sterilized.

and to add,it just depends on the schools cirriculum.in my schools they taught is all about safe sex practices,birth control,condoms,everything in addition to the normal sex ed classes.

child bearing from rape,that i can excuse from not being planned seeing as it's a forced sexual attack.but consentual without protection,i'm tired of hearing "oh,how did this happen"

< Message edited by mhawk -- 6/17/2008 8:12:58 AM >

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:11:28 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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Yes, kittin, That Simple when one is discussing Voluntary sex.  (Obviously the InVoluntary situation of Rape does not pertain in this instance.  But pregnancy due to Rape is in a very Very small minority.)
 
Personal Responcibliity for one's own life.  Simple concept, yet so many seem to have definate Issues with it.  When things go wrong, don't look for someone else to blame - take responcibility.
 
Life is Not completely Random.  It is a series of Choices and Consequences of those choices.  One of the Consequences of CHOOSING to allow something you (generic) know is Risky - is that the odds will eventually catch up to you.  Is someone else to blame when they do?  Nope - because the choice Was made.



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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:14:16 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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Mhawk, I'm not disagreeing with you that some Should be sterilized.  I am saying that it's horseshit to think that education on the subject is unavailable, or that the means to aquire various other methods are unavailable.

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:18:41 AM   
mhawk


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NP :) did n't think you were.  sometimes i can't stand the reply thing on here,most likely may bad when posting.

it's all good

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:30:12 AM   
kittinSol


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Now you see, it's not all that simple. Rape isn't the only thing that complicates your simplistic view of things. But at this stage, it's quite obvious we come from radically different perspectives. There's little left to discuss.

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:31:52 AM   
OmegaG


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I actually think that those who propose sterilization are not doing so out of a feeling of superiority, I think that they have quite humane reasonings behind them.  People live in an area where there isn't enough to eat, either due to wars, privateization of resources, lotus, flood, draught or any other number of reasons.  These people recognize that they can't depose the dictator or the rebel army that holds the people hostage, they can't change the weather nor can they make the private companies more altruistic.  Yet our global media shows them hundreds of children suffering, starving and dying horrible deaths and their thoughts are that if they can prevent more children from being born into these conditions then they will save children from suffering.

How much aid to we send to help people that get's hijacked and sold from profit from the "governments" of impoverished areas?  What can we really do?  We (meaning the countries that can sustain aid) work hard to attempt to get the aid to those that need it, but way too much of it never gets to them.  Their own countries, their own leaders see them as despensible flesh, can we change that paradigm?  Can we teach warmongers how to be more humane?

In many of the cultures, sex is one of the few pleasures that people enjoy, they don't even have adequate food or shelter so many of the luxuries that we take for granted that make our lives more pleasurable aren't even a dream for them.  Yet it is human nature to find joy even in the hardest conditions, so sex, love and relationships are one of those outlets, the children produced are probably greeted with hope, then sorrow when reality takes control.  Many of these children are too sick and too malnourished to even play and laugh and the Western world gets to see these horrors in full color in their living rooms any time they channel surf.

Sterilization is a desperate idea put forth by people who's hearts are in the right place but a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness for the world that many children are born into face.  People who support sterilization aren't wishing for genocide, they are wishing that if they can prevent overpopulation in such areas that those who are there can find enough resources for a happier, healthier life.

Do I think sterilization is the answer?  No, it takes away basic human right for choice, but I do think that people who live in desperate poverty don't have many choices to begin with.  And honestly, those who feel that sterilization is an idea to be discussed have come up with one more idea then I have.  I'm one of those that cries at the infomercials but knows that there isn't anything I can do to help poor Sally or Billy.  The only think I can do is not bring any more kids into this world then I can feed and keep healthy, but I also have the choice of contraception that 3rd world contries are lacking, and a cultural paradigm that makes these contraceptives a viable option.

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Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:33:07 AM   
subtee


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Now, the Star-Bell Sneetches had bellies with stars.
The Plain-Belly Sneetches had none upon thars.
Those stars weren’t so big. They were really so small.
You might think such a thing wouldn’t matter at all.
 
But, because they had stars, all the Star-Belly Sneetches
Would brag, “We’re the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches.”
With their snoots in the air, they would sniff and they’d snort
“We’ll have nothing to do with the Plain-Belly sort!”
And, whenever they met some, when they were out walking,
They’d hike right on past them without even talking.
 
When the Star-Belly children went out to play ball,
Could a Plain Belly get in the game? Not at all.
You only could play if your bellies had stars
And the Plain-Belly children had none upon thars.
 
When the Star Belly Sneetches had frankfurter roasts
Or picnics or parties or marshmallow toasts,
They never invited the Plain-Belly Sneetches
They left them out cold, in the dark of the beaches.
They kept them away. Never let them come near.
And that’s how they treated them year after year.
 
Then ONE day, it seems while the Plain-Belly Sneetches
Were moping and doping alone on the beaches,
Just sitting there wishing their bellies had stars,
A stranger zipped up in the strangest of cars!
 
“My friends”, he announced in a voice clear and clean,
“My name is Sylvester McMonkey McBean.
And I’ve heard of Your troubles. I’ve heard you’re unhappy.
But I can fix that, I’m the Fix-It-Up Chappie.
 
 
I’ve come here to help you.
I have what you need.
And my prices are low. And I work with great speed.
And my work is one hundred per cent guaranteed!”
 
Then, quickly, Sylvester McMonkey McBean
Put together a very peculiar machine.
And he said, “You want stars like a Star-Belly Sneetch?
My friends, you can have them for three dollars each!”
 
“Just pay me your money and hop right aboard!”
So they clambered inside. Then the big machine roared.
And it klonked. And it bonked. And it jerked. And it berked.
And it bopped them about. But the thing really worked!
When the Plain-Belly Sneetches popped out, they had stars!
They actually did. They had stars upon thars!
 
Then they yelled at the ones who had stars at the start,
“We’re still the best Sneetches and they are the worst.
But now, how in the world will we know”, they all frowned,
“If which kind is what, or the other way round?”
 
Then up came McBean with a very sly wink.
And he said, “Things are not quite as bad as you think.
 
 
So you don’t know who’s who. That is perfectly true.
But come with me, friends. Do you know what I’ll do?
I’ll make you, again, the best Sneetches on the beaches.
And all it will cost you is ten dollars eaches.”
 
“Belly stars are no longer in style”, said McBean.
“What you need is a trip through my Star-Off Machine.
This wondrous contraption will take OFF your stars
so you won’t look like Sneetches that have them on thars.”
And that handy machine working very precisely
Removed all the stars from their tummies quite nicely.
 
Then, with snoots in the air, they paraded about.
And they opened their beaks and they let out a shout,
“We know who is who! Now there Isn’t a doubt.
The best kind of Sneetches are Sneetches without!”
 
Then, of course, those with stars got all frightfully mad.
To be wearing a star was frightfully bad.
Then, of course, old Sylvester McMonkey McBean
invited THEM into his Star-Off Machine.
 
Then, of course from THEN on, as you probably guess,
Things really got into a horrible mess.
 
All the rest of that day, on those wild screaming beaches,
The Fix-It-Up Chappie kept fixing up Sneetches.
Off again! On again! In again! Out again!
Through the machines they raced round and about again,
 
Changing their stars every minute or two. They kept paying money.
They kept running through until the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew
Whether this one was that one or that one was this one. Or which one
Was what one or what one was who.
 
Then, when every last cent of their money was spent,
The Fix-It-Up Chappie packed up. And he went.
And he laughed as he drove In his car up the beach,
“They never will learn. No. You can’t Teach a Sneetch!”
 
But McBean was quite wrong. I’m quite happy to say.
That the Sneetches got really quite smart on that day.
The day they decided that Sneetches are Sneetches.
And no kind of Sneetch is the best on the beaches.
That day, all the Sneetches forgot about stars and whether
They had one, or not, upon thars.
Dr. Seuss
 

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:40:11 AM   
cjan


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I wonder, given the content of some, if not many respeonses, how many posters read the OP in it's entirety and took a li'l time to reflect before submitting a response.

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:45:07 AM   
subtee


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I was too. I believed the OP was referring to the mindset and ideology behind "blame the victim." I stand by my Seuss.

If it's not clear why I posted that, I'd love to discuss it!

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:47:12 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The die was set in the War of Independence, the lie was sold by the leaders of the revolution that there should not be any taxation without representation. However, about 99% of the colonists never paid tax but they took the supposed injustice to heart. It seems not to be questioned that after the revolution their was less representation in the new USA than there was under the British and that the founding fathers imposed a tax for a standing army to protect the new state. This was all smoke and mirrors because the main point of the revolution was to conslidate the position of the colonial establishment as the new ruling class and the standing army was to protect the new ruling class, not the average colonist. The colonists however, bought the propaganda of their new masters hook line and sinker and have been buying the propaganda of their political establishment ever since. The American Dream was always a dream and still is and always will be. There is less social mobility in America than any other developed country, yet Americans still buy into this pig in a poke which basically is a pipe dream to keep the average American in their place and working and dreaming one day they will make it. The lack of mobility in American society and the fact that the American political class bearly changes (the ones that pull the strings, not the puppets) should send alarm bells going in the ordinary American that they are victims of smoke and mirrors. I can't work it out why so many people buy into the lie, maybe enough crumbs falling off the table takes the political edge off people and they are thankful to their masters for what they have. You see the same in Europe, when people get enough material comfort, they are happy to conveniently buy into the lies they are sold, rather than fighting for justice for their fellow citizens and fellow humans around the world and making the thieves at the top pay their way.
   


That's why I've said for years that we impudent colonists should beg the mother country to forgive us and reunite the Empire.  God save the Queen!

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 8:53:37 AM   
OmegaG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


That's why I've said for years that we impudent colonists should beg the mother country to forgive us and reunite the Empire.  God save the Queen!


and people complain about McCain being too old to run a country.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

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RE: Should all Americans be sterilized? - 6/17/2008 9:04:04 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Sex education absolutely sucks - it needs major revision. It follows use of contraception sucks. And barrier methods aren't the most reliable - not by any means. And rubber prophylactics are expensive. And women are reliant on the men to use them. And the men don't always feel like using them. The list goes on.  


[/quote

"Women are reliant on the men to use them"?  As someone pointed out earlier, it only requires women closing their legs. 

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