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RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 6:49:23 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So I guess you are under the belief that when Barack Obama is elected, gas prices are going to plummet?

LOL!!

I've got over a $1000 in bets to that effect. Mostly for the price on June 1 2009 being below $3 a gallon if Senator Obama wins.


That's a smart bet DK. Should Senator Obama prevail Government bureaucracy may be the only surviving viable industry. With all his proposed entitlements and tax programs in place, by June 2009, that $1000 will have the same buying power of maybe 100 Euros. How in that environment the price of a barrel of oil will be below $200 per barrel I don't know, but you won't be putting much on the line.

The current price of oil is more attributed to the low value of the dollar and speculation rather than shortage. Its a psychological game being played by the exporters, investors, and speculators. Announcing a comprehensive program of drilling along with a nationwide commitment to building about 100 nuclear power plants would have a better chance of getting back to $3.00/gallon. Since Senator Obama has once again spoken out against either of those ideas I take your bet.

Except to keep it meaningful - I'll wager an 1/2 ounce of gold at market price on June 1, 2009. Bet?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 6:53:30 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So I guess you are under the belief that when Barack Obama is elected, gas prices are going to plummet?

LOL!!

I've got over a $1000 in bets to that effect. Mostly for the price on June 1 2009 being below $3 a gallon if Senator Obama wins.


That's a smart bet DK. Should Senator Obama prevail Government bureaucracy may be the only surviving viable industry. With all his proposed entitlements and tax programs in place, by June 2009, that $1000 will have the same buying power of maybe 100 Euros. How in that environment the price of a barrel of oil will be below $200 per barrel I don't know, but you won't be putting much on the line.

The current price of oil is more attributed to the low value of the dollar and speculation rather than shortage. Its a psychological game being played by the exporters, investors, and speculators. Announcing a comprehensive program of drilling along with a nationwide commitment to building about 100 nuclear power plants would have a better chance of getting back to $3.00/gallon. Since Senator Obama has once again spoken out against either of those ideas I take your bet.

Except to keep it meaningful - I'll wager an 1/2 ounce of gold at market price on June 1, 2009. Bet?

How do you propose to make sure I get my winnings? With people I know face to face that's not an issue but on the internet?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 7:01:14 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
So I guess you are under the belief that when Barack Obama is elected, gas prices are going to plummet?
LOL!!
I've got over a $1000 in bets to that effect. Mostly for the price on June 1 2009 being below $3 a gallon if Senator Obama wins.


That's a smart bet DK. Should Senator Obama prevail Government bureaucracy may be the only surviving viable industry. With all his proposed entitlements and tax programs in place, by June 2009, that $1000 will have the same buying power of maybe 100 Euros. How in that environment the price of a barrel of oil will be below $200 per barrel I don't know, but you won't be putting much on the line.

The current price of oil is more attributed to the low value of the dollar and speculation rather than shortage. Its a psychological game being played by the exporters, investors, and speculators. Announcing a comprehensive program of drilling along with a nationwide commitment to building about 100 nuclear power plants would have a better chance of getting back to $3.00/gallon. Since Senator Obama has once again spoken out against either of those ideas I take your bet.

Except to keep it meaningful - I'll wager an 1/2 ounce of gold at market price on June 1, 2009. Bet?

How do you propose to make sure I get my winnings? With people I know face to face that's not an issue but on the internet?


Happy to provide all my information direct including the business I own. You can go on-line and find my pictures as well as information. It so happens I have my corporate line of credit through a bank based in a Chicago suburb and usually get there at least once a year. Better yet - I'll set up an escrow fund with my attorney and send you a confirmation letter, expect you would do to the same.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 7:22:21 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		  Where have you been Merc?

Your guy,Bush,the guy you voted for twice has grown the federal government bureaucracy by leaps and bounds.

Are you projecting your energy on the wrong party?Clinton/Gore`s rate of grow went down while they made government more efficient. Your guy,Bush,has done the exact opposite.And for 6 long years,your party,the republicans,happily went along with it with zero oversight or even audits/supervision to oversee where the money went.

Your guy is the fuck up.Your party, is the party of (shift)tax ,borrow and spend.

Bush and the republicans have spent our money like a fleet drunken sailors.That`s a insult to sailors and drunk people and navy fleets.
                  
Your guy,McCain,has voted w/ Bush 100 % of the time,is surrounded by corporate lobbyists/lawyers/hachetmen,is in the pocket of corporate America and has flip flopped on everything that once differentiated him from the republican party.

And all you come up with is some tired out,boiler-plate ,now irrelivent GOP statement about  "government bureaucracy ".  

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/19/2008 7:33:36 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 7:26:37 AM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
So I guess you are under the belief that when Barack Obama is elected, gas prices are going to plummet?
LOL!!
I've got over a $1000 in bets to that effect. Mostly for the price on June 1 2009 being below $3 a gallon if Senator Obama wins.


That's a smart bet DK. Should Senator Obama prevail Government bureaucracy may be the only surviving viable industry. With all his proposed entitlements and tax programs in place, by June 2009, that $1000 will have the same buying power of maybe 100 Euros. How in that environment the price of a barrel of oil will be below $200 per barrel I don't know, but you won't be putting much on the line.

The current price of oil is more attributed to the low value of the dollar and speculation rather than shortage. Its a psychological game being played by the exporters, investors, and speculators. Announcing a comprehensive program of drilling along with a nationwide commitment to building about 100 nuclear power plants would have a better chance of getting back to $3.00/gallon. Since Senator Obama has once again spoken out against either of those ideas I take your bet.

Except to keep it meaningful - I'll wager an 1/2 ounce of gold at market price on June 1, 2009. Bet?

How do you propose to make sure I get my winnings? With people I know face to face that's not an issue but on the internet?


Happy to provide all my information direct including the business I own. You can go on-line and find my pictures as well as information. It so happens I have my corporate line of credit through a bank based in a Chicago suburb and usually get there at least once a year. Better yet - I'll set up an escrow fund with my attorney and send you a confirmation letter, expect you would do to the same.


You guys are starting to sound like "I have a check drawn on my Nigerian bank from funds that I inherited..." lol

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 7:53:47 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Where have you been Merc?

Your guy,Bush,the guy you voted for twice has grown the federal government bureaucracy by leaps and bounds.

Are you projecting your energy on the wrong party?Clinton/Gore`s rate of grow went down while they made government more efficient. Your guy,Bush,has done the exact opposite.And for 6 long years,your party,the republicans,happily went along with it with zero oversight or even audits/supervision to oversee where the money went.

Your guy is the fuck up.Your party, is the party of (shift)tax ,borrow and spend.

You republicans have spent our money like a fleet drunken sailors.That`s a insult to sailors and drunk people and navy fleets.
                  
Your guy,McCain,has voted w/ Bush 100 % of the time,is surrounded by corporate lobbyists/lawyers/hachetmen,is in the pocket of corporate America and has flip flopped on everything that once differentiated him from the republican party.

And all you come up with is some tired out,boiler-plate ,now irrelivent GOP statement about  "government bureaucracy ".  


Owner,
Other than the reference to voting for President Bush twice you are wrong on all counts. No party affiliation, less likely to vote for Senator McCain than I am for Senator Obama (Whose politics and positions I wouldn't support for dogcatcher.) However, I think Senator Obama's commitment and pledge to raise taxes and create new government bureaucracy should be repeated and highlighted daily. Any incentive for industry or personal production will be eliminated. If people are struggling now, how you think they will benefit from a regime of man promising more being taken from their income is beyond me, if they have a job at all. Corporations can't be taxed, when its attempted they cut employees and/or raise prices to generate the same bottom line as projected prior to the tax. People can't do that, they are subject to those job cuts and corporate exodus to countries who have already experienced the failure of socialist policies and now welcome capitalist investment. 

But as is common to your side of the issues, you've created a irrelevant tangent. My vote against the alternative candidate presented for the last two Presidential elections has no bearing on the post to DK. Digressing from the topic at hand may work for the masses, but the topic here is a pragmatic position of gas prices on June 2009. Similar to our wager on the outcome to November; I won't feel good about the outcome, only satisfied to have projected the result accurately. Care to be included? $3.00/gallon by June 2009 for a 1/2 ounce of gold?

Admittedly that's as much a sucker bet as DK's $1000. Oil at $3.00/gallon would put gold at less than $500/ounce.

Important enough to cover specifically...
quote:

McCain,has voted w/ Bush 100 % of the time,is surrounded by corporate lobbyists/lawyers/hachetmen,is in the pocket of corporate America and has flip flopped on everything that once differentiated him from the republican party
Except in the most recent history huh? The war is funded directly due to Senator Obama supporting its funding and inuring its continuation until June 2009 (another reason why its silly to consider $3.00/gallon possible).

Senator McCain cowardly did not vote. But all those anti-Iraq war assuming the good Senator from Illinois will end it quick should remember his vote and all the votes, his and 74 more that said yes to more funds for the war in Iraq. The votes were there, 75 of them - above the threshold for veto. No funding - no war; yet the party or peace and appeasement voted in accordance to their master's, the PACs and industries profiting from the war.

Feel free to spin it as you like - YOUR party, the Democrats, majority in both houses made sure the war would continue - status quo. While they were at, using your words, "corporate lobbyists/lawyers/hachetmen", profited, and another year's worth of soldier death and injury was budgeted.

My party? The kind I have is that which I'm having at my place on the 28th of this month. I would never submit to wearing the blinders you obviously do and have to rationalize such positions of absurdity.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 8:00:04 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Happy to provide all my information direct including the business I own. You can go on-line and find my pictures as well as information. It so happens I have my corporate line of credit through a bank based in a Chicago suburb and usually get there at least once a year. Better yet - I'll set up an escrow fund with my attorney and send you a confirmation letter, expect you would do to the same.

I'm curious how you would put up an amount equal to an unknown amount in escrow but I guess you could physically turn over the 1/2 ounce of gold.

It is funny that you are talking gold though since everybody knows its also overvalued and likely to come way down soon.

I think my exposure on this is high enough though so you should take your 500 bucks and buy oil futures if you're so confident. May 09 contracts are at 137.16 a barrel.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 11:42:03 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Happy to provide all my information direct including the business I own. You can go on-line and find my pictures as well as information. It so happens I have my corporate line of credit through a bank based in a Chicago suburb and usually get there at least once a year. Better yet - I'll set up an escrow fund with my attorney and send you a confirmation letter, expect you would do to the same.

I'm curious how you would put up an amount equal to an unknown amount in escrow but I guess you could physically turn over the 1/2 ounce of gold.

It is funny that you are talking gold though since everybody knows its also overvalued and likely to come way down soon.

I think my exposure on this is high enough though so you should take your 500 bucks and buy oil futures if you're so confident. May 09 contracts are at 137.16 a barrel.
The 'escrow' would be a binding agreement on whatever the value of gold as of June 1st 2009. My lawyer would have to make good on it, and that would be between me and her.

Gold is a fixed hard currency. Based upon its buying power the price hasn't fluctuated much in 25 years. It's gone up and down in dollar value, but what it can buy stays about the same; excepting in times of dramatic global crisis or short term spikes and dips. I'm willing to use it for value purposes. If that doesn't suit you, whatever you propose then DK. I'll put $1,000 in cash today against the price if you'd like. I only suggest it because with the spending required to fund Senator Obama's promises, after the election they'll be worthless.

But I'm sure you'll back off your $3.00 a gallon!? That exists in a world of make believe, just like those bets you represent. Amazing how it is a struggle for you to put anything of value behind your words. Something you have in common with your candidate of choice.

BTW - I guess you have all your money tied up 'short' on June 09 futures huh? - YEAH RIGHT!

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 11:51:13 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		As I said previously that you seemed to miss, $1000 is all I presently willing to risk. I pointed you to an alternative way of satisfying your belief.

BTW whoever is feeding you your BS on gold is lying to you. Gold was a pretty stable commodity since the end of the 70's and some of the present run up could be attributed to the weak dollar but not all of it can be, much like oil, and the bubble is due to burst anytime now, just like oil.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 11:53:22 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Wasn't McCain one of the notorious "15" who got together to keep Bush from getting what he wanted on something?  I suppose that by trying to hamstring the president at one point he was trying to support him?  I think the 100% is a bit off.  I'll still grant you that he has voted with Bush often.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 12:05:03 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As I said previously that you seemed to miss, $1000 is all I presently willing to risk. I pointed you to an alternative way of satisfying your belief.

BTW whoever is feeding you your BS on gold is lying to you. Gold was a pretty stable commodity since the end of the 70's and some of the present run up could be attributed to the weak dollar but not all of it can be, much like oil, and the bubble is due to burst anytime now, just like oil.


Nice duck & cover DK!

Re-read what I said about gold, you'll find I concur. My holdings are strictly for 'worst case' and I don't consider it of any other value. 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 12:05:41 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Wasn't McCain one of the notorious "15" who got together to keep Bush from getting what he wanted on something?  I suppose that by trying to hamstring the president at one point he was trying to support him?  I think the 100% is a bit off.  I'll still grant you that he has voted with Bush often.



If you`re referring to the end of torture or tax cuts for millionaires,he`s flip flopped on those things.

Most of the things that earned him outsider status in the GOP,he now supports or has flip flopped on.

The maverick is now just an old gift horse,don`t look him in the mouth.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/19/2008 12:06:41 PM >

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 12:12:43 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Wasn't McCain one of the notorious "15" who got together to keep Bush from getting what he wanted on something?  I suppose that by trying to hamstring the president at one point he was trying to support him?  I think the 100% is a bit off.  I'll still grant you that he has voted with Bush often.

Are you talking about the "Gang of 14" deal on filibustering judges? GWB got most of what he wanted from that deal. It was a real low point for the Dems. I would have made the GOP actually try and rewrite the Senate rules, that's the same rule BTW that the now GOP minority has been using to stop a whole slew of legislation from being passed.

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 12:28:45 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Wasn't McCain one of the notorious "15" who got together to keep Bush from getting what he wanted on something?  I suppose that by trying to hamstring the president at one point he was trying to support him?  I think the 100% is a bit off.  I'll still grant you that he has voted with Bush often.

Are you talking about the "Gang of 14" deal on filibustering judges? GWB got most of what he wanted from that deal. It was a real low point for the Dems. I would have made the GOP actually try and rewrite the Senate rules, that's the same rule BTW that the now GOP minority has been using to stop a whole slew of legislation from being passed.


Thank you.  That's exactly what I was trying to remember.  And, I have to agree with you that the filibuster rules need changed.  I say that if they want to use it, they need to have their lazy asses up on the podium talking, not just sidetrack the bill with a procedural filibuster.  If they want to derail a bill that they can't beat otherwise, they need to work for it. 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 12:42:27 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		..I agree no more drilling take our lumps and go forward from there...There are others ways, WE must leave this earth in better shape then we found it, OUR children and our grandchildren must have a safe clean environment without making the fat cats richer,Honda has a car that hydrogen, all be bugs has been worked and you are telling the the auto makers can't do better,Is it because they are so heavy invested in oil that they refuse to hurt the goose thats laying the golden eggs..I think so..bounty

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 12:52:01 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		The last thing the oil industry wants to do is lose thier grip on the economy. And alternative energy sources don't have a lot of promise for monopolies. Ever look at companies like archer daniels midlands? They have been buying up farm land and closing down family farmers for decades now. I strongly get the feeling that that is but another attempt at an energy  monopoly-especially corn and biodiesel.

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 12:57:09 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

The last thing the oil industry wants to do is lose their grip on the economy. And alternative energy sources don't have a lot of promise for monopolies. Ever look at companies like archer daniels midlands? They have been buying up farm land and closing down family farmers for decades now. I strongly get the feeling that that is but another attempt at an energy  monopoly-especially corn and biodiesel.


Of course they are..Soon there will be only 4 or 5 major food producers and they will be able to name their price..then one must decide to drive or eat...WE produce about 60% of whats we eat and soon that number will go up...ITS a lose lose situation for most folks..

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 6:02:30 PM   
Puppy4goodHome


Posts: 1448
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Beachwood Ohio and a few others
Status: offline 		Im a Dem when i choose to vot for a Dem and a replublican when i like the republican that is running
i am undecided this year
so not sure yet
what i am however
i do think that it is not Dems that wont let us drill it is replicans also mostly it is the green ppl that wont let us drill come on there has to be a point where these earth green helper will just shut up and let us drill becouse in 2 years form now when gas is at 15 a gallon we could drill it here and get it for 1 a gallon i bet so come on

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/19/2008 6:09:29 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
And there is a lake of oil that is off the Pacific coast that stretches from LA to about mid Oregon.  Every time they want to drill, the Sierra club and every other enviromental organization screams bloody murder. 

Funny thing about that field, you can use the old fashioned plateforms that sit on the bottem.  Chance of catastrophic failure, virtually nill, unless the entire San Andraes Fault ruptures at the same time... but then no one in California would really care, sense the entire California coast would be a disaster area.


However, there was a spectacular blowout in the Santa Barbara Channel, around 1969.  We'd moved to Ohio by then, but even a whippersnapper like I was remembers reading about it.  And that's why the Coastal Commission, et al start howling .

thornhappy

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: So why are Dems against oil drilling and exploration - 6/20/2008 11:25:04 AM   
MasterHypnotist


Posts: 120
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		As far as ANWR...

* It was set up in the Carter administration, Democrat House and Senate as a strategic oil reserve. The size/quantity of petroleum was estimated and deemed important enough to preserve through federal mandate, figuring that the projected technology needed to drill and recover the petroleum would be there when the need was there.

* ANWR is about the size of Connecticut.

* The contiguous projected drill sites cover an area about the size of Regan airport.

* Proposed drilling will occur during winter when wildlife will not be disturbed.

* The area will be engineered to allow migrations.

* It will be federally protected from hunting because bad things might happen to above-ground pipelines if bullets were introduced into that environment.

* Only maintenance and inspection will be allowed during migration and summer seasons.

* Prudhoe Bay has actually seen an increase in animal populations because of the area's managed/protected status.

* We now have the winter and horizontal drilling technology to access ANWR.

Of course there will be a three to five year lag between the start of drilling and shipping for production. The only question is, who holds the strings and what are they looking for to open ANWR up? All I know is that I doubt they'll post the answer here in CM.

Pass the right legislation with the right incentives, and we'll see hydrogen pumps in every town and hydrogen cars in every dealership.

Now, here's the bugaboo question...

We need petroleum for lubricants and plastics. I'm not sure if anything can replace the simplicity of a diesel engine for heavy loads and prolonged running times. So...

* if the world drastically reduces it's use of gasoline... what do we do with gasoline, since gasoline IS a byproduct of petroleum distillation?

All the best,

MH


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 60
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