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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 3:18:22 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I've used the analogy of the Beast several times in the past to communicate the details of my own desires, but in all honesty, to take it too literally, I think is a mistake and doesn't do the reality any justice, at least for me.

It's not some wild, uncontrollable force that threatens to possess me at any moment of time, but just a desire on par with my sex drive. I use the same adult self control that I use to control my sex drive to control my sadistic desires and it isn't a whole lot harder to control. It's a voice in the back of my mind and that's where it stays. I don't have trouble going too far or crossing my ethics anymore than I have trouble keeping myself from fucking every woman I see.

The Beast is a great way to describe the way it manifests itself inside of me, but to associate it with being something "wild" and "hard to control" is false.


i remember reading past posts of yours when you referred to "the beast" and it always reminded me of my old friend and the conversations we had about that primal element in sadists that want to go further but stop short because of conscience. 

i don't mean to imply it is some wild and uncontrollable force that ovetakes the sadist, but rather a mistake or accident (for lack of a better word) that happens, perhaps when one lets their guard down.  my friend admitted it scared him but admitting it and acknowledging it was helpful in dealing with it.  You cannot change what you don't even acknowledge.   Maybe i have met some strange sadists who confessed feelings most others hold very private, i don't know.  i find it interesting to hear other's thoughts and experiences of this nature.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 3:27:14 PM   
missturbation


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quote:

Interesting point - whose line is being crossed and where is that line drawn. 

Again i can only speak for myself.
When i first came into the lifestyle i had several lines which i was insistant i would not cross. The majority of these lines i would now say were only soft limits such as needles, whipping until bleeding, permanent scarring. At the time they were real hard ones. No need to say really i have now done all i mentioned.
Scarification / skin removal was a line i would not cross, i'm now about to.
 
Now for some the things i have spoken of may not be crossing a line and for some they may be. Everybodies opinion of where the line is will differ.
 
My Sir regularly calls me a 'freak' but he likes me that way. Luckily our lines seem to match up pretty well, but we do get a little hairy scarey at times. Quite possibly to some i could do with a little if not a lot of professional help so i wouldnt worry about that velvet

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 3:27:44 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Um... how do I keep "the beast" in check? Well, here's an answer for you: I do BDSM... with a consenting partner. That seems to keep "the beast" quite happy, thank you very much! 

I'm also sorry to say that the idea that somehow, as a sadist, I'm going to somehow want to move on to "bigger and better things" is a bit off the mark as well. (They say that about BDSM in general, you know... but I've yet to hear that any of the folks whom I know have been playing heavily for the last 25 years, that they are now doing life for chainsawing a girl scout troop. (Or anything more scandalous than that they've been divoriced, and remarried to a more understanding partner, for that matter.)

The questions themselves are flawed.

(gong) Try again!



i am happy for your experiences and your contentment with what you have experienced in your community of people.  Are you that sure that all the "heavy players" you know have never been challenged in the way of almost loosing control and harming their partners? It's not something someone is going to readily admit to others, especially in real time.  i would think they would feel too ashamed to admit it.  Perhaps my questions are flawed i am open to rephrasing them if you have any suggestions.  i'm not a sadist but i know quite a few and  have even had relationships with some, i am going by what i hear them tell me.  

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 3:41:23 PM   
rook42


Posts: 110
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		If you don't empathize with someone's pain, then what is the point in hurting them? Yes, it's sexually gratifying... But why? I don't think sadists fail to identify on some level with their partners- quite the opposite. Actual damage would be a lot easier to justify with someone that's been dehumanized. There's no time that someone's more human to me than when they are uncomfortable.

Learning to trust your own little brand of sadism is half the work, I think.

Re:bipolarber
quote:

The questions themselves are flawed.


I don't think the question was entirely out of left field. I don't think she was referring to BDSM players specifically (tops, dominants, whatever word you want to use). I think this thread was targetted towards those who derive strong sexual gratification from the pain itself. The feeling of sadism being a strong urge or addiction is NOT just something that's in the popular consciousness; I know quite a few that have identified with this same feeling. If this is inapplicable to your own brand of fun, it is just that.

Just because BDSM is consensual, does not mean it is any different than any other interest, like food or consensual sex. You can still overdo it, and it's not quite the same if it becomes a compulsion or cathartic instrument.

Edit:
Wish I had seen these last posts before I posted. Needles/cutting were originally hard limits for me as well, miss, and gave a LOT more of a rush than I was anticipating. Made me question how well I knew my own preferences for a second.


< Message edited by rook42 -- 6/21/2008 3:44:39 PM >

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 4:17:37 PM   
AtlantisKing111


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Status: offline 		I've never had any problems knowing when to stop inflicting pain on any of the women I've played with.  It's not an adrenaline rush for me it's a sexual energy sort of thing.  Even in the midst of severe biting during a scene when I get feral emotions running through my brain and I'm growling like a wolf, a part of my brain is .... sort of watching.  Not exactly the right term, but close enough.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 5:19:10 PM   
Stusmobile


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Status: offline 		This thread and a couple of the others are starting to make me feel like a freak ... oh well ..

My sadistic side isn't the hot blooded kind that most seem to be identifying with, there is a lot of emotion tied into it, but it's almost clinical in the way it's applied.

I want to see her look inside her self and acknowledge what it is she desires, her deepest and darkest wishes .... and I want to be the one who lets her see them, accept and finally embrace them. The sadistic side comes to the fore as I'm slowly peeling the layers of protection away so she is totally naked to herself and to me. Sometimes that will need a physical manifestation, sometimes mental, other times a combination. I'll use whatever it is that works for us to explore her soul, to plumb the depths of depravity she craves but hides.

My kink for want of a better word is seeing that beautiful look of horror in her eyes as she realises she just let another tiny secret out. The look she gives me as she realises that I'm not shocked or disgusted but more likely to build that thing into our relationship. Theres the sadistic side, that smile as I tuck just another tiny bit of her away, that knowledge to be brought out at some future time and incorporated into us .... or not, but she doesn't know which.

The balance for me is finding that spot where I have pushed her right to the edge and held her there, shown her the depths to which I could let her fall and then bringing her safely back to my arms. Each time we push we both grow, learn a little more about ourselves and each other. She is mine to bend, to shape, to mold into what I want but she is also mine to break if I slip and make a mistake. At the end of the day I want my toy to play with and a broken toy is no fun for anyone.

Of course all of this is from what we describe as a "healthy" relationship .......


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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 5:27:55 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

If there were no laws prohibiting it how far would a sadist go? 



A serial killer may lack empathy; an emotional sadist is more than capable of empathising. You can strip some bare, yet wish to tend to that vulnerability.

I absolutely agree Indeed it is empathy itself which draws the line.
I recently had a very miving telephone conversation with a friend. He apologised very sincerely for any damage he had done to me. I asked what kind of damage did he mean and he was very very lucid about the (minor) repercussions of the physical stuff on me and equally as lucid about the emotional damage he felt he might have done.
It was a beautiful conversation, one that made me fullt realise that he was being entirely compassionatye (standing in my shoes metaphorically) at each and every moment of his sadism. His understanding of the pain it was inflicting on me was the source of his pleasure and not the mere infliction of the pain for pain's sake.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 6/21/2008 5:28:28 PM >

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 5:46:02 PM   
ExSteelAgain


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Status: offline 		Interesting question, Velvet. I answered on another thread that I want the submissive to want the pain I’m giving her. That’s the big turn on for me. I can also take it past what she can comfortably desires because I know she wants to be pushed that way, too. Most understand and do such things with intimate partners.

What I wouldn’t enjoy would be taking a submissive way beyond what she wants without having a goal of her looking back at the scene and feeling a good erotic emotion.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 6:39:49 PM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

Hmmm....I don't consider myself as having a beast within that must be kept at bay until a maso appears at my doorstep.  I love to do things like bite, paddle, cane and claw, because it releases something in me.  I have no desire to kill anyone.  I have no desire to harm anyone.  Hurt?  Oh yes.  But never harm, that's where I draw the line.  Harm is permanant and detremental.  I would never want to hurt someone who doesn't want to be hurt, either.  Another line I do not draw.  I'll take a maso anywhere he or she wants to go, so long as I know I'm not harming. 

No, no beast.  It's all about control, mutual want, and lack of actual harm for me.


This is pretty close to what I'd say. The OP asked later of this post "what about going where you want to go"...my answer to that is that I use my skills to bring my partner to a place where they want to go where I want to go. I'm very, very good at this; my partner was originally vanilla, who fortunately turned out to be wired for masochism (unless I actually conditioned him to it...something we don't really know for sure, honestly)...I've taken him willingly past no after no after no in the last decade.
In the early days, he once admitted that he feared that all I wanted to do was beat the crap out of him. And I laughed, because I really, truly didn't, and it never even occurred to me. It's not JUST violence, you know? There's all this emotional, sexual stuff along with it, and it all has to work together.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 6:48:29 PM   
chellekitty


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someone else said it amongst a large paragraph but i just wanted to highlight it...

you don't break your toys, you can't play with them if they are broken - that is what i have heard from most sadists that keeps them from going over the line...from, "if I harm them too bad they will go away," to "if I kill them, I can't cause them pain anymore..."


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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 6:56:55 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i don't mean to imply it is some wild and uncontrollable force that ovetakes the sadist, but rather a mistake or accident (for lack of a better word) that happens, perhaps when one lets their guard down.  my friend admitted it scared him but admitting it and acknowledging it was helpful in dealing with it.  You cannot change what you don't even acknowledge.   Maybe i have met some strange sadists who confessed feelings most others hold very private, i don't know.  i find it interesting to hear other's thoughts and experiences of this nature.


That's a bit of an extrapolation on my part to get a point across, but basically, it just comes down to having impulse control.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 6/21/2008 6:57:44 PM >

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 7:03:43 PM   
ThundersCry


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Status: offline 		I have no choice but to hold...back...
 
Two words can describe that *feeling*...
 
It...sucks.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 7:18:28 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Permanently damaged toys are no fun....  so that holds me back.  That, and that there are not all that many masochists out there who can deal with serious BEAST action. 

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 10:18:53 PM   
Leatherist


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Status: offline 		I'm much too cold and reptilian a sadist to get "lost in the moment" like some idiotic schoolboy. I want bottoms to come back for more. That's my personal limit.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 12:58:55 AM   
Evility


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Status: offline 		I haven't experienced any feelings of 'looking for the next big rush' so far. I really enjoy the things that I do and thus far have continued to enjoy them without becoming bored with them. While I certainly do like to expand my horizons and add new activities to my toybag I tend to go about it very methodically. I suppose you could say that I practice a very controlled brand of sadism and part of the rush is the methodology. I'm not a big fan of impact play (except for face slapping) and impact play seems to be an activity that is most often cited when people talk about things getting out of hand. The stuff I enjoy requires more attention to detail so getting carried away is less likely.




< Message edited by Evility -- 6/22/2008 1:01:07 AM >

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 1:46:25 AM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AtlantisKing111

I've never had any problems knowing when to stop inflicting pain on any of the women I've played with.  It's not an adrenaline rush for me it's a sexual energy sort of thing.  Even in the midst of severe biting during a scene when I get feral emotions running through my brain and I'm growling like a wolf, a part of my brain is .... sort of watching.  Not exactly the right term, but close enough.

Absolutely.
There are very many references to what is known as the ''hidden observer': a function of thinking well very well documented and writeen about in cognitive sciences and hynosis. (Another thread I think).
I also refer to this and like to think of this observer as a 'critical observer'......a part of me and others that exists outside f and critical of n activity involving pain.
My observer has changed limits during a scene, bought into practice my 'stop' signal and enabled me also to push limits I thought I had.
In my personal opinion both sadists and masochists have this 'observer' component in place in thought during play.


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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 1:55:40 AM   
TMIk


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Status: offline 		Control with limits. Safe words and such should be discussed before hand.  

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 2:01:17 AM   
shivermetimbers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

If all i ever get is what i want how is that 1. fair, 2. fulfilling and not boring in the long run. 

All responses welcomed sadist, masochist, dom, sub, slave, switch

My first time with a sadist, I was surprised, because I knew I could easily take more.  However, she also recognized the signs that going any further could result in physical damage.  She shouldn't be saddled with damaging her own psyche, just because I could have went much further, without realizing the potential damage that was lurking.  She also probably understood, that it being my first time going that far with things, that I would go way beyond anything sane just to please her at that moment. 

I had no idea where I could go, or where the point was where things needed to be stopped.  Not that it wasn't fulfilling, because it was in the way she enjoyed it, but I was surprised that it wasn't as "sadistic" as I thought it would be in my own mind.  So from the physical standpoint, I felt a bit betrayed.  But in reality, I just happened to have a pretty good tolerance for what she was doing, and her taking it further would have meant injury to me. 

I'm just wondering if maybe what has been done to you just happened to be areas of such high tolerance, that a sadist hit a threshold of enjoyment and to continue would start treading down the path to abuse, and wisely, left it at a threshold where you may have felt "bored".  In my case, other areas of sadism were discovered that I didn't have a high, or for that matter, any tolerance.  So I guess what I am trying to say is, what must keep the "beast" at bay is knowing themselves first, whether they make themselves stop out of fear for your physical condition, or put other controls, such as only scening in public, for fear of not having that sort of control without someone else's intervention. I feel proper sadists can only build on what the masochist can take along with being safe. You can't take back what has already happened.  That's what separates sane from the insane, recognizing where that line is crossed, and giving a damn about it.


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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 7:14:06 AM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		Thank you everyone for all the replies.  i have insight i didn't have before.  What i hear that i find interesting is that many sadists stop because they don't want to break a toy they enjoy playing with, and many want the masochist to come back so they stop as not to scare them away.  This isn't stopping out of conscience this is self serving.  At least in the way it is phrashed and how i interpret it by going the next step in it's meaning.  Many did say they stop because they don't want to do any harm.  What if a sub/slave asked to be harmed?  i imagine there would be mixed answers to that question depending on the type of sadist. 

i liked rooks42's phrase "Learning to trust your own little brand of sadism is half the work, I think."  As much as the sub has to trust her dominant not to harm her the sadist has to trust himself that he won't do any harm.  i am sure most sadists strive to be in control and not do permanent damage, maybe some feel confined and constricted with how far they can go.  i know my friend from TX felt that way as what he ultimately wanted would have led him to jail.  He was thankful for finding his submissive as if he did not have her as an outlet he felt he surely would be doing time.  He is an extreme example i am sure. 

Maybe i made an assumption in thinking that for sadists to feel satisfied they had to go further than they had already gone - the dangers in that obvious.  If you keep repeating what you have done you get to know the reactions you're going to get. For the sadists who enjoy the reactions how can this keep you interested, unless you keep a steady flow of play partners coming your way.  Even inflicting fear would take some creative thinking to keep it real if done with a steady partner where trust was built up.  i have to wonder if this drives them to seek new partners after a while? 

There are so many motivations for sadism and each one is unique to each sadist. 

Phrases like these are interesting because they speak of a sadism that has very little, maybe nothing to do with lust or desire. 

it's almost clinical in the way it's applied.
 
I tend to go about it very methodically.
 
I'm much too cold and reptilian a sadist to get "lost in the moment" like some idiotic schoolboy.

shivermetimbers i had similar experiences where had the dominant i was with didn't stop it would not have been healthy for me.  i am thankful the ones i have been with posessed limits and a conscience not to want to do any harm.  You're fortunate you had a very wise and caring dominant that first time. 

prinsexx i am not sure masochists have this observer in place when in play - i think many simply go into sub space and have no idea how far things are going till all is over and done with, and i think many simply trust in their dominants.  This is why imo safe words are dangerous - not all subs can make use of them or would and go past the point of hurt to damage. 

LadyHibiscus, if you found one who could handle "serious beast action" would the thought of playing with such a masochist pique your interest or make you wonder if indulging  with such a person might be dangerous to keeping to your own limits?  i have known some sadists who steered clear of some masochists because they didn't want to go into an area where they felt they could go beyond what they had done before and indulge in things they felt were unethical, but they admitted they were tempted - conscience held them back. 

AtlantisKing i think you came closest to what i was talking about - you described it as ferral emotions.  You seemed to have that desire to sink your teeth harder but a "part of your brain" is watching - would you call it your conscience?  i guess sadism can feed lust or it can feed a need to control and be very clinical in nature in how it is applied. 

A lot of imformation to process and piece together i hope i have made some sense of it all and this post isn't just a great big ramble.  i am tempted to just click exit but what the heck lol. 

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 7:44:53 AM   
Mercnbeth


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I know my sadistic nature is dangerous. My enjoyment derived from inflicting discomfort in others is something I've had to control for most of my life. My 'conscience' comes into play due to emotional connections I have with my partners. It is one of my reasons for requiring an emotional connection with any play partner. The less connection, the less conscience; however I'm still me in all cases - first and foremost a sadist. That would be the case whether I was in a realtionship or not. I may only be a Master because of my relationship with beth. I was a sadist long before she ever entered my life.

What I do is never "clinical". My scenes are always emotional, sensual, and never scripted. I have a goal; my pleasure. Regarding WIITWD there is no guilt associated with that pleasure. I strive to find a compatible partner, not so much to ensure my partner's pleasure, but to create a easier environment to facilitate mine. It is the reason why a 'bratty sub' never appealed to me. Not that he/she wouldn't be worth the effort - but my sadism wouldn't be served within that dynamic. I've always required consent and establish it by requiring that my partner 'beg' for the experience. Serving not only my sadistic nature, but setting the mindset I require and consent in stone.

Outside WIITWD the 'beast' gets unleashed because I'm less concerned with "conscience". Dealing with stupidity, poor service, or any business conducted, I don't feel compelled to hold back anything short of physical confrontation. Its not so much my "conscience" stopping that level of confrontation, but the pragmatic consequences. I don't have the patience for fools and no longer feel it necessary to tolerate them.

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