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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 7:54:37 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		i stole this from the emotional sm thread from Owner4SexSlave (p. 6).... This was in reply to doms being pushed to go over the lines by emotional masochists pushing their buttons. This can happen on a physical level as well... at least i think so. 

"you will be the one forced to deal with your own mental issues regarding how sadistic you can be.   You will be faced with trying to figure out the lines of true abuse or not.   It will fuck with your mind, to the point you might become a chain smoking idiot pacing outside thinking to yourself What the Fuck.   Trust me, you will be trying to search your own concious looking for the bottom of your soul."
 
Maybe it's easier to cross the line in emotional sm than it is in physical sm play.  Masochists do push buttons when they want more - i don't think it is always a conscious decision, many times it is and when done with conscious intent i feel it is dishonest. 



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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 7:55:18 AM   
LadyBug1967


Posts: 20
Joined: 2/9/2008
Status: offline 		I can only say this:  Since You are in the lifestyle You have found the right place to fulfill Your desires.  It may not be everyone that You can play with, but there are a sufficient number of playmates who need the pain You enjoy giving that You should not ever lack for someone to play with!  W/we all have O/our beasts within.  BDSM gives U/us an outlet for them.
 
Have fun.  If you can't keep it safe, sane and consensual at least abide by the RACK stuff.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 8:08:48 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you Merc for that very direct and consice way of explaining your sadistic nature.  i think you are the first to admit it is dangerous.   You require an emotional connection to keep things controlled or also because you enjoy the experience better that way?  In other words, in a consequence free world would you allow "the beast" to play with someone you felt no connection to?  You mentioned your scenes always contain some element of sensuality to them, does this also prohibit crossing the line as it ensures there will always be a connection, thus always your conscience stopping you? 

i'm not a sadist by any stretch but i can relate to your last paragraph about not suffering fools any longer. When i was younger i look back on all the garbage i tolerated and put up with. i am older (and hopefully) wiser now and can cut right to the bone with those who try to pull the same bs with me.  i am trying to teach my older daughter these skills and save her years of waste and heartache but i think it's probably just something that comes with experience and maturity.  Thanks so much for your contribution!

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 8:16:25 AM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I'm much too cold and reptilian a sadist to get "lost in the moment" like some idiotic schoolboy. I want bottoms to come back for more. That's my personal limit.


That right there is exactly how it should be everytime. i love to see that look come over the Doms face...its in the eye...its so primal but cold...like a croc's eyes....i am no longer a person but something to act upon....instinctively.
Youre my hero.....

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 8:37:52 AM   
Evility


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Joined: 12/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
Maybe i made an assumption in thinking that for sadists to feel satisfied they had to go further than they had already gone - the dangers in that obvious.  If you keep repeating what you have done you get to know the reactions you're going to get. For the sadists who enjoy the reactions how can this keep you interested, unless you keep a steady flow of play partners coming your way.  Even inflicting fear would take some creative thinking to keep it real if done with a steady partner where trust was built up.  i have to wonder if this drives them to seek new partners after a while?


This makes an assumption that a steady flow of willing play partners for the sadist even exists. So far I have met in person exactly one person who is willing to submit and consent to everything I enjoy doing. Me ex would not although we are no longer an item for entirely different reasons. I know several submissives here locally who I have spoken to about such topics. All of them have limits that would exclude some of my favorite demented pleasures. I've read comments on the forums here and on bondage.com from legions of submissives who also would not be interested in being included on my dance card.

That's the bitch about sadism. There are lots of different kinds of sadists. Many people associate sadism and pain. It's not always about pain and I liked that you did not frame your OP in those terms. I just don't see an endless stream of submissives willing to go that route with me and I feel lucky to have even found one person on the same wavelength as I. I feel even luckier that I do not have to pull any punches with her for fear of her departing for higher ground. As she says herself "Either you submit or you do not".


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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 9:04:01 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I've read some, not all of the replies.  There have really only been a couple that I could identify with.

It's My personal opinion that, at some point, usually in the beginning of one exploring their own sadism, the questions asked in the OP are very legitimate.  I'm not so mighty and proud to say that they never occurred to Me.  It can be very difficult to accept that you enjoy inflicting pain on people, specifically, people who trust you to have their well being in mind.  I'm sure I'm not the only person out there who has ever struggled with the realization that hurting someone a little is a rush, and wondering if you hurt them a lot more is a bigger thrill.  Yes, the rush is a craving, much the same as a masochist gets a craving to have pain inflicted.  If it wasn't an enjoyable thing for the sadist, they wouldn't be doing it.

For Me, accepting the beast was, in part, a way to balance this all out.  Yes, the sadist is in Me, but it isn't the only thing in Me.  I also happen to be a kind person, who has a bit of moral and ethical integrity.  Letting the beast out for a little romp is a wonderful bit of fun, but the person I am is bigger than the beast.  That is My conscience talking.  It is the difference between wanting to hurt someone, and harming them.  Yep, there's a beast,  but I'm holding the leash.




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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 9:16:19 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i am never that sure of my ethics as i know i am human and human beings make mistakes and run into circumstances beyond which they can always control. 

If the circumstances really are beyond my control, then either they really always were and there's nothing I can do, or I've allowed myself to go beyond myself- and that's just not something I really do.

Would I kill or harm someone without their consent?  In many contexts yes, and quite easily without regret, but not as a form of sadism.

In sadism, my ethics prevent me from going to a place of inhibiting another person from being true to and experiencing who they are on any level.  I suppose it really is that simple, but this is after years of knowing myself and working through a lot of issues in regards to myself and what I know I'm capable of towards others.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 2:31:31 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
How do they keep "the beast" at bay? 

I do not keep the beast at bay once released.  I simply don’t let it out unless it has free rein.

The unbridled beast is not often socially acceptable and can be a bit dangerous… especially for edge players and resistance players.  Although consent may be the last voluntary thing my partner does.  I make sure it is informed consent because when my beast is aroused, it does not need or heed consent. 

I have never had a problem… but I then again, I rarely “top” and if I do, the beast is not released.  I ONLY unleash the beast on that which I own.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 2:54:03 PM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
Maybe i made an assumption in thinking that for sadists to feel satisfied they had to go further than they had already gone - the dangers in that obvious.  If you keep repeating what you have done you get to know the reactions you're going to get. For the sadists who enjoy the reactions how can this keep you interested, unless you keep a steady flow of play partners coming your way.  Even inflicting fear would take some creative thinking to keep it real if done with a steady partner where trust was built up.  i have to wonder if this drives them to seek new partners after a while?


This makes an assumption that a steady flow of willing play partners for the sadist even exists. So far I have met in person exactly one person who is willing to submit and consent to everything I enjoy doing. Me ex would not although we are no longer an item for entirely different reasons. I know several submissives here locally who I have spoken to about such topics. All of them have limits that would exclude some of my favorite demented pleasures. I've read comments on the forums here and on bondage.com from legions of submissives who also would not be interested in being included on my dance card.

That's the bitch about sadism. There are lots of different kinds of sadists. Many people associate sadism and pain. It's not always about pain and I liked that you did not frame your OP in those terms. I just don't see an endless stream of submissives willing to go that route with me and I feel lucky to have even found one person on the same wavelength as I. I feel even luckier that I do not have to pull any punches with her for fear of her departing for higher ground. As she says herself "Either you submit or you do not".




didnt you have to build up a certain rapport with her before you unleashed the beast all the way?...i honestly think that all my limits are kind of soft or at least maleable given the right set of circumstances....other than the commonly quoted and obvious ones.

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 3:58:43 PM   
Evility


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Joined: 12/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee
didnt you have to build up a certain rapport with her before you unleashed the beast all the way?...i honestly think that all my limits are kind of soft or at least malleable given the right set of circumstances....other than the commonly quoted and obvious ones.


In our case, a connection developed very quickly. There was no real rapport building phase. She can explain this better than I can but I think she was looking for a relationship and for a dominant with whom she felt comfortable enough to just 'let go' and for some reason she sensed that in me essentially from the moment we met in person (we had 'met' each other online three weeks prior). She tossed aside whatever limits she had and wrote me a blank check.

I was the one who ramped up, really. I was extremely tame from a bdsm standpoint when I met her. Faced with a partner who walked in the door and said "I am here to please you and I will do anything it takes to make that happen" a sleeping giant that I never knew existed was awakened. With every sadistic event I tried two more were freed up in my mind. I finally realized why mainstream bdsm porn bored me so much but the stuff from Insex caught my eye. Heh.

I do understand the concept of variable limits under different circumstances. The night we met she asked me what activities I fancied that I had never been able to pursue. I almost immediately replied 'breath play and electrical play'. All I got in return was a wry grin that I rightly took as a green light. A month or two later after no further discussion I added both of those to my repertoire.

It was months later that we were chatting and she mentioned that electrical play had been a hard limit in her prior D/s relationship. He lobbied repeatedly and she declined each time. I asked her what the change of heart was (remember she was up for this from jump street) and she said basically that she was not comfortable with her previous dominant's ability but felt comfortable enough with mine to go for it even after knowing me for a relatively short time (again, I do not explain it as well as she can).



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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 10:31:13 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Reading the sadism thread got me thinking about where sadists draw the line and if they ever fear crossing it or getting so lost in the moment they crossed it and had regrets or repurcussions from it.  How do they keep "the beast" at bay? 



I draw the line at my choice in action that I believe will not harm my slave.  If I am in doubt.. I don't take the action.

I have never crossed this line.... .

Keep the beast at bay?  What beast?  when I play it's ME and the person I play with... no beast present... I am not into beastiality.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/22/2008 11:58:54 PM   
Leatherist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I'm much too cold and reptilian a sadist to get "lost in the moment" like some idiotic schoolboy. I want bottoms to come back for more. That's my personal limit.


That right there is exactly how it should be everytime. i love to see that look come over the Doms face...its in the eye...its so primal but cold...like a croc's eyes....i am no longer a person but something to act upon....instinctively.
Youre my hero.....


It's funny that people think that because I do this cold-I am not enjoying it.

I guess we can't all be "warm and fuzzy" all the time.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/23/2008 1:00:47 AM   
Wolfie648


Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Reading the sadism thread got me thinking about where sadists draw the line and if they ever fear crossing it or getting so lost in the moment they crossed it and had regrets or repurcussions from it.  How do they keep "the beast" at bay?


How could one cross the line.That's ridiculous. We are all safe sane and consensual beings. And we all did it on our own w/o anyone having done anything before. Sacrilige!

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Possibly.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/23/2008 2:21:25 AM   
Whipstress


Posts: 10
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline 		This is a great thread, thank you for the question.  I think as I've read the responses, it shows how many different directions sadists can be coming from.
 
As for criminal sadists, they aren't acting out of consent for starters.  Also, there certainly isn't an "exchange" involved. My understanding is that is what seperates those with a conscience that practice BDSM as consenting adult "play" from criminal sadism. I am not into criminal behavior.
 
Also, I think technically, sadism is referred to as sexual sadism.  That implies that it is a sexual turn on not unlike any "fetish" that one incorporates into their sexual fantasies and sex life because they are less satisfied without it. 
 
Then regarding "the beast" that one must address.  I think many sadists do have to address their own fears early on about what they are capable of.  I do remember being a bit fearful of my "passion" in the beginning but because of my conscience I worked through the beginner's fear by learning who I am and what I want to achieve and reflect. 
 
My desire is always to take what the bottom or submissive is into, hear what they say about their interests, make it my own and take control and make it so sexually arousing and satisfying for myself while leaving  them always wanting more.  I find that to be an art of sorts.  I want it to be so beautiful no matter how hard or edgy it is that there is no doubt that there has been an authentic torture scene between an intense sexual female sadist and a beautifully suffering victim.
 
The sadist that I am can achieve that scene at any level of play because in someone who isn't into extreme pain I still go for finding that same place where I control their point of suffering for "me" which is exactly the same experience in a person not into extreme pain as it is with a hardcore masochist.  It all looks the same, feels the same and is a mind fuck to whoever it's being done to, by me. The ultimate measure of success is for me whether once the scene is over, do I want to fuck them to death. And though I've had my share of wasted bottoms/subs/masochists afterwards, eventually, that scene will be the bases of their sexual satisfactions and fantasies also.  Having someone go beyond where they ever thought they could go and be very proud of their achievement is a pleasure to provide.  Criminal sadism cannot be compared. 

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/23/2008 2:44:26 AM   
HalloweenWhite


Posts: 1028
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		I will always stop at the point the one I'm with wants Me to; to do otherwise, to Me brakes a "cardinal rule"- Safe, Sane, Consentual, if I didn't stop when My submissive said, I  loose their consent so the play may become unsafe, so it wouldn't be sane anymore.

But I can see that not always being the case-if limits aren't pushed a little bit sometimes it'd get dull and as long as people understand the risks of what they're doing, or at least know that some risk is involved it'd be fun for B/both to go a bit further.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/23/2008 5:18:54 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

My 'conscience' comes into play due to emotional connections I have with my partners. It is one of my reasons for requiring an emotional connection with any play partner. The less connection, the less conscience; however I'm still me in all cases - first and foremost a sadist.


This hit a bell for me. I've said a number of times that I need to respect my submissive or I get bored and it gets ugly. It occurred to me when I read this that what I mean by "it gets ugly" is that I lose some of my ability to stop the sadist from going too far. If any part of me REALLY starts to believe the person I'm playing with is...lesser...I can start to creep over the line. That sadism comes from a different place, and not a good one, imo.
Now, you have to know me to appreciate that it takes some very specific things to get me to that place; it would be hard for me to explain. I just know when I'm not feeling that basic level of respect I need in order to safely play with someone and I don't.

I also want to second Lady Pact's observance that, particularly when we are new, most of us wonder about whether we will go too far, etc. It's perfectly normal and healthy, imo, to consider that, even if it only takes you a brief time to become confident that you won't.

Finally, I want to stress again that my sadism isn't just about violence, but also about sexual arousal. In the same way that if a vanilla person is, say, kissing/attempting to make out with a partner who is being cold/unresponsive, that person is generally going to lose their arousal, if my partner ceases to have any sexual arousal, I lose mine as well. (Now, in some scenes, this happens expectedly and I deliberately keep going because we're going out of it and then back in, but when I lose the sexual arousal, any muddiness in my thinking is also completely gone, and so the issue of going too far becomes moot.)

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/23/2008 7:21:02 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

You require an emotional connection to keep things controlled or also because you enjoy the experience better that way?
I don't enjoy the experience at all without an emotional connection. Perhaps over the years I've put it place as a protective mechanism. I can't say its "better" because in trying to answer you, I couldn't remember an situation where some level of connection existed. It would be different, I'm sure. 

Were I a 'Grand Inquisitor' in the time of the Spanish Inquisition I think I would have enjoyed my job immensely. The question, on point, would be if I would have been able to do my 'job' to its most frequent conclusion of permanent damage or death to the subject having a connection with the person? Ummmm? Turn it around, and focus on the sensual/sexual aspect. Would I react in this manner to a job function? Afraid that generates another; ummmm?
quote:

In other words, in a consequence free world would you allow "the beast" to play with someone you felt no connection to? 
beth and I were talking on this exact point while going to a brunch yesterday. I told her that without consideration of consequence there would be a good chance I would be a serial killer of the type highlighted on 'Criminal Minds' referred to as a 'sexual sadist'.

Okay now, having answered the question in that fashion; I guess you could say that the experience of being an 'Inquisitor' would be great for me - not so good for my partners. So yeah - my 'hard limit' of requiring a connection may be serving as a safety mechanism.
quote:

You mentioned your scenes always contain some element of sensuality to them, does this also prohibit crossing the line as it ensures there will always be a connection, thus always your conscience stopping you? 
I'd state it with appropriate emphasis and confidence. My 'scenes' are completely sensual and always have been for me. I've said it before and started a thread on the exact subject. My desire, goal, and the focus of participation in WIITWD is completely sexual. I get aroused by the entire process. Even my actions to facilitate my partner's climax are 'sadistic'; first to deny, but also to demand on my command, more often than my subject thought possible. 'Death' by orgasm would best describe the process. Ideally my partners process the sensations similar on the opposite side of the 'flogger'. Ideally because that allows me to go further, deeper, more intense, more everything.

However this isn't a time for my conscience to kick in. It may be running in a sub-program, but totally distinct from the 'connection'. One must happen before the other is possible. I don't think that it is something that can occur casually, or happen instantly. Too much trust is necessary to produce the necessary mental/emotional intercourse. Trust is the 'Viagra' the drives the dynamic; except unlike Viagra, you don't have to worry if your 'erection' lasts for more than 4 hours. In fact trust can generate the wonderful experience of having a 24/7 'erection' whether you have a penis or not.

However, I don't believe that the sexual/sensual aspect is a governing factor. If anything it tends to get things more out of control. My 'conscience' is derived from seeing the value of the partner. It would be a waste to destroy someone deriving pleasure from the acts playing to my sadism. My slave is my most valuable possession. My feelings for her can not be expressed in words. I care for her like no other, and her welfare is as important to me as my own. So of course my conscience comes into play regarding anything I inflict upon her, but so does my pragmatism. beth is not easily replaced. 

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/26/2008 8:14:36 PM   
rebdomine


Posts: 4
Joined: 3/6/2007
Status: offline 		I'm sure for Serial Killers, they've got so low they can longer be repaired, emotionally or mentally. They just get sick, the more they get into it, and just dig themselves a hole, but they allow themselves to get there, becoming a psychopath doesn't happen overnight, and I don't believe people are born that way . For "normal" sadists, it's a game, if it's not a lifestyle. Punishment is allowed, but it is a privilage. If it is mans deep seeded, primal, animalistic urge to hunt, mate, feed, and kill. Than sadists are like tamed animals. You gotta be emotionally, and psychologically up to par, to not cross the forbidden line. 

The Sadist can keep control, the serial killing psyco looses that control. I think you said it best, "I think there is a definite difference between sadists that inflict pain irregardless of whether the sub enjoys it"

Psycopaths are a blank sheet, too selfish to kill themselves, so they kill themselves by killing others. Sadists just don't want to go around killing submissive women, they want to service them, with the pleasure of pain.

I'm just a young switch, my opinion doesn't matter does it?  You bet your fucking ass it does.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/26/2008 9:01:52 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		A lot of us don't want to just "service them".
 
It's a bit more selfish than that.
 
Do a read of some of DeSade's work sometime-it might give you a glimmer.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/26/2008 9:49:13 PM   
SurrenderForMe


Posts: 229
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Regarding the loss of control.  Never happened.  What has happened has been that we started at point a, connection made, intensity increased, and increased until we were satiated.  I am clear that I am a sadist with people.  I also can't take things past a certain point if I don't feel a connection ( a high that is part of a feedback loop), it either happens or it doesn't.  If it doesn't, I am roleplaying and servicing out of courtesy, along the lines of finishing something that didn't work out as planned and not blaming the other person.  If the connection forms, then each and every time we have passed their expressed limits, gotten really high and come down with a smile. 

quote:

i think there is a definite difference between sadists that inflict pain irregardless of whether the sub enjoys it, in spite of if she enjoys it, only when she enjoys it, and when she definitely doesn't want or enjoy it. As a masochist i want all of them, which is hard to find. i don't want a sadist to take me only as far as i am willing to go all the time. i want to know he took something from me that was all for himself and that he got satisfaction from it. If all i ever get is what i want how is that 1. fair, 2. fulfilling and not boring in the long run.


I love this part of what you said.  I love having the connection and the high.  I also love to take someone who trusts me and take what I want.  This may not satisfy what you describe because even when I take my pleasure in spite of their enjoyment, there is an element of consensuality.  They have agreed that that is part of our bargain.  I in no way enjoy just taking and not considering damage.  I have natural limits.  I have no problem with the grey areas.  They are bright black for me.  I cannot enjoy damaging someone.  That is the difference I define between a sadist and a psycho.  But the high from knowingt that someone has yielded that level of commitment to me is an aphrodisiac.

If all you ever get is what you wanted, you are safe.  That is my theory on why so many people never actually go to any depth.  Fear is a great inhibitor and ultimately thief of so much of our lives.

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