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What do you think of subs with self-image/self-worth/de... - 6/24/2008 2:02:38 AM   
Untouched1282


Posts: 142
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline 		As a Dom[me], do you think you could be with someone who was dealing with such issues in their personal life? It could be that they find meaning through service, or fail to see themselves worthy of being a DOM (or even an equal) because of such emotional disorders. It could be that, with the proper counseling -- or help from a positive Dominant person in their life -- they could overcome these issues and no longer need such a submissive existence. I'm a nurture over nature guy, who doesn't feel anyone has an innate disposition, so I think this could be a very real possibility. (Everyone has a tendency to chance, grow, especially with time and experience).

How would you handle such a situation?

(Sorry for asking so many questions. I just like to hear what other people have to say. This issues hits particularly close to home, however)
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 4:08:20 AM   
MsStarlett


Posts: 1879
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		One of my boys was Bi-Polar.  On proper meds, he was fine and quite 'fun' in his manic swings.  When he hit his depressions... he just sort of wandered away by himself.  The only reason the two of us don't play anymore is because he lost his house in a divorce and had to move out of town.

As for on line subs with problems.  I just don't have time or expertise to deal with it.  I'm not a psychologist.  I can hold a hand and offer a shoulder or a stout spanking in person - which ever is most needed at the time.  But there's no way to 'Talk you through it' in PM's.


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RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 4:13:51 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Untouched1282

It could be that, with the proper counseling -- or help from a positive Dominant person in their life -- they could overcome these issues and no longer need such a submissive existence.


it is not the job of a Dom/me to fix a submissive. In fact, i would question their sanity if they tried.
If there are mental/emotional issues with the submissive they should not venture into a new relationship until they are more stable.


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RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 4:36:44 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I think that mental health has such a stigma attached to it, we say not to judge people with physical disability such as wheelchair users or whatever but somehow we all run for the hills when we mention mental problems. I would expect that most people here have had the flu in their lifetime, just as most people here have had mental issues we just dont like to talk about it, we see it as shameful and somehow means we have baggage and whatnot. Well show me someone who has no baggage and ill show you someone who is lying.

I agree with Holly, its not the Doms job to fix anyone, just as in the reverse situation its not the subs job either. It seems this question pops up so often, there is a hidden assumption about submissives mental state. I think for the most part we arent even aware of our own level of sanity so its a hard thing to discuss. But if the person has mental issues that are causing problems then its their job to seek professional help if thats what they need. But if we all waited until we were mentally stable to start relationships we would pretty soon become extinct.

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RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 4:42:38 AM   
MizSexyVixen


Posts: 137
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Very nice profile, Untouched. You reflect the (IMO) normal confusion and ambiguity of being a young, inexperienced male switch very well.

It's been my experience most younger (or newer) male subs have self esteem issues. It is very difficult for some males to come to terms with their submissive side. This appears to be especially true if they are dominant in other aspects of their life (such as their career) or have switchy tendencies. There is a huge difference between "self esteem" issues and feeling  suicidely depressed and worthless. 

BTW your doctor has great medications for depression, and I strongly urge you to pursue that.

I may, perhaps, be reading too much into your post, but it sounds  as if you're hoping if you improved your self esteem, this sub side of you would disappear. I wouldn't count on it. Note that I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in terms of knowing what you are (a switch). I have encountered 25 year olds that self aware, frankly most are not.

I agree it's not the job of a dominant to "fix" a submissive. I don't see the OP as needing fixed, I see him as somone needing guidance to help him find, accept, and embrace who and what he is, whatever that may be.



(in reply to sirsholly)
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RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 5:04:40 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		If someone told me that he never had negative thoughts about himself... I'd strongly suspect I had a liar on my hands.

The key for me is self awareness and an attempt to work on such issues --- that's what I do after all why would I expect less from someone serving me?

I have stopped training a few times when it became clear that the person I was working with wasn't going to invest in him/herself. I even told one young woman to get into therapy and bring me proof or don't bother coming back -- sorry, her second trip to the emergency room for alcohol abuse was two trips too many but I was kind and "understanding" the first time.

I think one huge issue that someone with greater than average self-esteem issue need to consider is the type of Ds dynamic they would have. I'd never do anything like humiliation with such a person, they do that to themselves on a regular basis. I can hear some folks say "it lessens the impact of that stuff when you combine it with arousal or positive feedback" but I'm not a trained therapist and someone's psychological health is nothing to mess around with in my strong opinion.

I'd be upfront about such issues but not in your first or second communication. When the questions start to arise about medical or mental issues, that's when you need to bring it up, you know, at the negotiation stage once you know you have enough other things in common to start sharing that more personal stuff.

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(in reply to Untouched1282)
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RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 5:26:23 AM   
TermsConditions


Posts: 446
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline 		Quick reply.

 I'm a nature & nurture guy. I've dreamt subby dreams since before pre-K and I think experiences that resonate with your nature have more of an affect than other experiences. You keep what affirms your thinking and ignore everything else. I don't think everyone with sub feelings needs to be "repaired" or would lose their submissive tendencies if they developed better self esteem. This might be true for some, but you are infinitely complex. Everyone you interact with is equally complex.   Medication helped me understand that my subbish feelings are real needs and that I deserve to have my needs met. That realization led me to this site. I have other self-esteem and abandonment issues that affect how I interact with others but they are not the source of my subbish tendencies.  Therapy (following an adapted systems model) has helped me identify characteristics and modes of interaction between myself and others. The more I dig and learn the more solid and real my subbish nature becomes. It's not all of me there is but a very real part that affects everything I do.  Every day and in every way I am getting subbier and subbier. ;-P

_____________________________

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Married, Novice Subbish-Type Person
and rider of the Drama Llama.

(in reply to Untouched1282)
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RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 5:34:36 AM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Untouched1282

As a Dom[me], do you think you could be with someone who was dealing with such issues in their personal life? It could be that they find meaning through service, or fail to see themselves worthy of being a DOM (or even an equal) because of such emotional disorders. It could be that, with the proper counseling -- or help from a positive Dominant person in their life -- they could overcome these issues and no longer need such a submissive existence.


i'm curious... why do you think this would happen? i think that the number of people who submit because they truly feel they're not worthy of an equal relationship is relatively small (and generally avoided by Dominants).

at's your underlying assumption here? That submissive tendencies are just a symptom of low self-esteem?

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Profile   Post #: 8
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 5:38:44 AM   
LaMistressa


Posts: 460
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline 		I tend to be a very supportive and nurturing person (other than the sadistic streak - sue me), so if there was a submissive I was interested in with self-esteem issues my approach would be to lift and encourage his or her spirit. That said, I would not see my relationship with the person to be a substitute for professional help; that would be a red flag for me. 

(in reply to Untouched1282)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 6:14:38 AM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		On one hand, I think the submissive part is a modifier.  "What do I think of having a partner with self-esteem/self-worth/depression issues" is pretty much the same question and, in my eyes, the heart of the matter.

We all come with our things to work out.  We all inhabit some position on the spiral of self-actualization.  It's life.  As TammyJo stated, those who say they don't may be deceiving themselves.  I think what it comes down to is how aware is someone of their own stuff.  Because if someone isn't aware, or doesn't have the desire to change it, the relationship becomes theater for them to act out their issues -- I am less their partner and more ... the person they are projecting their issues onto.

The question I ask myself in a relationship dynamic is, "Are we moving from strength to strength or are we just hitting each other with our most wounded parts?"  I want it to be the former.  A love interest I had a few years ago had some pretty heavy duty crap to deal with, but I was into him because he had so many positives going on, and he could see what was tripping him up.  I felt he did the same for me.

As LaMistressa alluded to, I cannot be a substitute for therapy or professional.   It's just not the dynamic I want in a relationship.

Mss



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RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 6:32:16 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Untouched1282
they could overcome these issues and no longer need such a submissive existence.


While confidence can grow, and a timid disposition can be replaced by an assertive one, submission is not necessarily driven by misgivings about one's self worth. It instead can be a source of various forms of gratification. The point I wish to emphasize is that if one enjoys submission, it does not mean they have esteem issues.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Untouched1282)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 6:41:12 AM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		Thanks for this post.  It responds nicely to the the "submissive strength" thread we have going on.

Mss

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Profile   Post #: 12
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 7:04:12 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Untouched1282

As a Dom[me], do you think you could be with someone who was dealing with such issues in their personal life? It could be that they find meaning through service, or fail to see themselves worthy of being a DOM (or even an equal) because of such emotional disorders. It could be that, with the proper counseling -- or help from a positive Dominant person in their life -- they could overcome these issues and no longer need such a submissive existence. I'm a nurture over nature guy, who doesn't feel anyone has an innate disposition, so I think this could be a very real possibility. (Everyone has a tendency to chance, grow, especially with time and experience).

How would you handle such a situation?

(Sorry for asking so many questions. I just like to hear what other people have to say. This issues hits particularly close to home, however)


Would I get involved with someone with self-image/esteem problems? Probably; I have had them myself, as long as I was reasonably confident the person was working/would work through those issues as I have. Would I get involved with someone who suffered from depression? Depends on how severe and how well treated, honestly, and depends on the person, too.
This applies in a general way...it has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a female dominant who selects submissive partners (of both genders, in my case.)
I would not want to get involved with someone who was using submission as a kind of therapy...'cause either it would never work and they'd stay miserable, or it would work and they'd lose their desire to submit.
I want only partners who submit out of choice/ongoing desire to do so regardless of other states of mind.
If someone wanted to be a dominant but didn't feel confident enough to do so, I might mentor them as a friend, but I certainly wouldn't take them on as a submissive.

(in reply to Untouched1282)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 7:11:47 AM   
MissEnchanted


Posts: 510
Status: offline 		I have a sub with Viet-Nam related PTSD.

He is the sweetest and most giving person. We work well together.

We deal with the PTSD as it shows up. He is worth it.

I add wonderful things to his life and well-being as he does to mine. And he feels good about who he is with me. He gives beautifully of himself.

The rest: we deal with.


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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 7:18:38 AM   
chiaThePet


Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline 		They're human.

Hmmmm, look at you.

I'm suddenly feeling kind of depressed.

Just in case you're in a nuturing mood.

chia* (the pet)

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RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 8:18:54 AM   
Untouched1282


Posts: 142
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Untouched1282

As a Dom[me], do you think you could be with someone who was dealing with such issues in their personal life? It could be that they find meaning through service, or fail to see themselves worthy of being a DOM (or even an equal) because of such emotional disorders. It could be that, with the proper counseling -- or help from a positive Dominant person in their life -- they could overcome these issues and no longer need such a submissive existence.


No, absolutely not. I think that's one reason people do it. There are a whole host of reasons why people may enter into The Lifestyle from a submissive stance. I was simply trying to assert that in some instances it could be the case. I was also posing a few rhetoric questions to initiate responses. That's all

Also, I didn't say or mean to imply that I want to "lose" my submissive self. I was simply saying that over time people change. What if THIS happened? Again, another rhetorical questions.

The only aspect of this post that truly resonates which my personal experience are the self-worth/self-image issues. It's impacted the way I interact in romantic.

i'm curious... why do you think this would happen? i think that the number of people who submit because they truly feel they're not worthy of an equal relationship is relatively small (and generally avoided by Dominants).

at's your underlying assumption here? That submissive tendencies are just a symptom of low self-esteem?


(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 9:40:40 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


Posts: 5824
Status: offline 		depression is everywhere.... how many people out of 10 are actually happy?? 1? 2? and half of those are acting happy....

depression is a sympton that many are not even officially diagnosed with.  nor will they admit that they have it nor will they take action against it.

a show i saw on discovery said that denmark is the happiest country in the world.  but when you look at the people they are not even smiling.  they say this because it is an easy place to live with little crime.  doors are left open at night and you dont have to look over your shoulder.  the gov't takes care of everything for them right up until they are finished university.  yes paid schooling.  but then when they work..50% taxes.  i say...how can u be happy paying 50% to taxes???  cost of living is lower there.

lets all move to denmark....not smile one bit...and claim we are happy...



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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 11:08:36 AM   
Untouched1282


Posts: 142
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

depression is everywhere.... how many people out of 10 are actually happy?? 1? 2? and half of those are acting happy....

depression is a sympton that many are not even officially diagnosed with.  nor will they admit that they have it nor will they take action against it.

a show i saw on discovery said that denmark is the happiest country in the world.  but when you look at the people they are not even smiling.  they say this because it is an easy place to live with little crime.  doors are left open at night and you dont have to look over your shoulder.  the gov't takes care of everything for them right up until they are finished university.  yes paid schooling.  but then when they work..50% taxes.  i say...how can u be happy paying 50% to taxes???  cost of living is lower there.

lets all move to denmark....not smile one bit...and claim we are happy...




No offense, but I think depression is a little different than not being happy. Maybe in this over-medicated age that's how it's perceived, but depression is much, much deeper than not being happy. It's an inability to find happiness. It's crippling, for both the person and potentially those they associate with me.

(in reply to faerytattoodgirl)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 11:31:11 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I've lived with severe depression my whole life.  Look around at my relations, and you can see the genetic heritage:  it's not just a bunch of us having a bad day.  Much of my energy is taken up in disease management and most of my income pays for my health insurance so I can "afford" my meds.  Oh well.  Some people are brittle diabetics, others have heart trouble, I have bad brain chemicals.  I do what I can to ameliorate the situation and not make life worse for those around me.

Faery knows from depression, she was being facetious.  But, I don't think "happiness" is necessarily the opposite of "depression", nor do I think having a mood disorder is a reason to avoid life and other people.   We cannot "fix" each other, but we can help each other get through the day. 

I know what kinds of relationships that I need, and what does not add to my stress.  I seek out those kinds of relationships, and the people that can meet my needs.  For a long time I was a "rescuer", but I learned that even though being rescued is my fondest dream, you can't do that for a person who doesn't want it, and isn't willing to do their part.  Knowing yourself is the greatest help in building the right dynamic, and choosing the right people to be around you. 



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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: What do you think of subs with self-image/self-wort... - 6/24/2008 11:47:19 AM   
charlotteS


Posts: 203
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline 		LadyHibiscus hit the nail on the head with her last paragraph.  You can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped.  If someone told me they had a mental illness as an excuse for behavior I would not want to be with them.  If they told me to explain why they behave in certain ways I would be much more open.  Accepting that depression is an illness and not beating oneself up for not being able to feel better is step one.  But there's step two of saying "what can I do to help myself?"  If someone skips step two it would be pointless for me to try to help them. 

charlotte




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Profile   Post #: 20
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