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RE: Giving up - 11/9/2005 9:25:30 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, we on the boards -are- harsh, and we do tend to come accross as not so nice to people who's first post is "you'v emessed up BDSM for me, I'm taking my ball and going home."


If I'm reading this thread correctly you're a little off on the sentiment...he has never gotten the ball out of the bag, is angry about it & going home because no one will play with him.
A novice sub is something that many can get past. A novice Top let alone a male Top is a much different animal. Dominance is something that a sub craves, raising and developing your own dom is not something that most subs would ideally be looking for in a field of others. This is just a reaility.

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Giving up - 11/9/2005 9:29:21 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

If I'm reading this thread correctly you're a little off on the sentiment...he has never gotten the ball out of the bag, is angry about it & going home because no one will play with him.
A novice sub is something that many can get past. A novice Top let alone a male Top is a much different animal. Dominance is something that a sub craves, raising and developing your own dom is not something that most subs would ideally be looking for in a field of others. This is just a reaility.


Eh, to me it boils down to the same thing--making one's first post on the boards be one bemoaning the situation and how we all suck.

And I gotta say I disagree with your second statement. I think it just depends on th eperson. Anyway, -everyone- has to start somewhere, top or bottom. While I understand that it is difficult to be with a novice top, and most people don't seek them out, the prejudice against novice tops, especially male ones, is pretty amazing. Where did the people with 20 years experience start?

(possible answers? they were mentored or joined their communities. Very good answers. Perhaps the OP should look into this. :) Just sayin' we all start as very very new)

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to theRose4U)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/9/2005 9:44:08 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
I don't play "ssc" I never have and I never will, it doesn't jive with me. That said, I would be worried by someone for whom consensuality is a sticking point.


You are contradicting yourself, at least in part. What precisely do you mean to say?

Do you trust your Dominant?

When push comes to shove, do you obey your Dominant without question? If yes, I have nothing to say to that. If no, I would ask you why you apparently trust a man/woman whose words you cannot obey.



I don't understand where the contradition is.

I don't play by some glib set of words, because they -are- a glib set of words that don't jive with who I am. I tend to be sceptical of catch phrases that get touted as gospel.

I said that I require consensuality, period. How does that bring obedience into question? I was saying that I think it is -vital- that one consents to whatever dynamic one is invovled with, and that one gives that consent with full knowledge of what he/she is consenting to. One can have perfect obedience in a consensual dynamic.

You said "Many of us Doms aren't looking for much from the word "consensual" except an initial agreement - then it's "My way or the highway" the rest of the time for most of us."


I'm agreeing with that, however adding the caveat that there needs to be 100% disclosure in that intital agreement otherwise there can't be informed consent. I believe that once you consent to a power dynamic, as the s-type, you are left with the "obey or leave" choice. But I also think that in order to enter into that agreement you need to KNOW what will be asked of you, otherwise how can you give your consent?


As to the other bit--obey without question? Nope. Obey with question? Yup. Questioning ain't a bad thing in our relationship. ~shrug~ Different dynamic.


Hm. Re-reading I think I see where you're saying the contradiction comes in. I said I don't play by "SSC" but that I demand consensuality. I can see how that would be potentially confusing.

What I was saying was that I don't play by a slogan. I don't try to fit my play into something that would corespond to the definition of "safe, sane and consensual" at least in part because as a crazy person, nothing I do -can- be sane. I was saying that I don't subscribe to the school of thought that believes if you don't follow generally accepted standards of "SSC" you are a dangerous abusive/self-abusive person. I -wasn't- saying that I think the individual elements of the slogan are a bad idea. I think it's probably a good idea to have an eye to saftey, and I -definatly- believe in consensuality. I simply don't embrace "SSC" as a defining factor for what makes something BDSM vs abuse.

(edited to add the above)

< Message edited by perverseangelic -- 11/9/2005 9:48:01 PM >


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~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Giving up - 11/9/2005 9:53:31 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberservitude

Yup, I see you are still crapping on those who don't share your same viewpoints.

I'm confused how pointing out your own poor behavior is "crapping on" you. If you don't like your behavior commented on, work on the behavior, don't shoot the messenger.

quote:

Not to worry Stef..I'm leaving.

No one drove you out of the forums when you were here in your 'Sissyslave71' incarnation, and no one wants you to leave now. You actually post some interesting things when you're not off your rails. Please do stick around, just try to chill out a bit.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to rubberservitude)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: - 11/10/2005 12:45:45 AM   
Marquisd


Posts: 61
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
yeah if safewords are for idiots - then I am very happy to be an idiot........alas a safe one.

If you do not need a safeword, then do you not make the ASSUMPTION that nothing can go array with the scene - that you have planned for every little bit of change in the universal structure ?

If the idea of a safewords or SSC offends you - then my humble apologies......wasn't meant other than that is how I play.....safe.....in control....with a net and consentual.......other people other preferences.

cheers

Marquis

< Message edited by Marquisd -- 11/10/2005 12:54:04 AM >


_____________________________

Relationships develop at the speed of trust

"Official Sadist and Dom of the 2010 Winter Games"

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 7:18:01 AM   
Phoenxx


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline
quote:

In any case, I am entitled to my own fucking opinion - you are entitled to yours.


yes you are entitled to your own opinion. But you can express it in a way that will communicate it, or you can turn it into a rant and your message gets lost in the rant.
Yes, a lot of people took a swipe at the OP. Maybe because many of us have seen this type of behaviour before. It gets tiresome after awhile. And that’s our opinion.

quote:

That word "consensual" is a sticking point for many of us Doms, so is the idea of "safewording." But it's all beyond the scope of this thread - a digression by the usual suspects and for the usual reasons (scoring babes).


I use safewords for various reasons. Because sometimes my wife is more sensitive then at others. Her body doesn’t always respond the same way. Not because I am trying to score points with anyone. A matter of fact, I doubt anyone reading my posts is going to fall madly in love with what I write and run up here to Manitoba to serve me forever and a day.

quote:

Enter John Warren, intellectually dishonest enough to attempt an appeal to his own authority simply because he's a published author.


You know until you posted that I had no idea who he was. I noticed that some of his posts were worth reading, and that he very politely informed me I was wrong about something in another thread. It was done with tact and respect. So he earned respect in my eyes… like he gives damn about some geek on a computer he may well never meets opinion. But he has done something many of us would love to do. And he has done a great job in advancing BDSM in the eyes of the public. Plus he is showing credentials. It’s not like he is screaming LOOK AT ME. Yes, he mentions his accomplishments in his profile. I’m betting if he didn’t someone would have notice it from a jacket photo or by asking him. Hell he didn’t mention his PhD. Now before you start a rant thinking I’m trying to get him to like me, I haven’t read his book, and am not planning to run out and buy a copy (Sorry John, I’m busy reading a couple of series that are eating up my book buying dollars LOL). When I talk about my experiences as a DM, I’m not screaming look at me, I am providing information so the reader knows that I have some experience and what kind I have. And to show that I am not just talking out of my hat, or blowing smoke up their ass.

quote:

BTW, I make much of the idea of "lifestyles" - with an "S" as in plural - because there is hardly one way of going at this successfully - and it doesn't matter whether the issue is consent, safewording, poly, one-night stand type play, or whatever. It is literally "different strokes" for almost everyone. That's why it is better to know who you are dealing with than to rely on the false sense of security provided by some supposed safeword.


You say you like the idea and then go on to trash others opinions. Isn’t that a lot like saying I love the 1st Amendment, but you better shut up and never talk to me about what you think? It almost sounds like your saying you like lifestyles just not that one. If it’s different strokes for everyone, can you see how it can be different strokes at different times? And that there is sometimes when a person has different needs. Personally, if fawn (my wife and submissive) uses her safeword too often, I need to sit down and find out what is going on. And then decide what steps to take. Including redefining our relationship. And so far she has used it twice in 6 years. Yeah, that sounds like she is really abusing it and Topping me doesn’t it? Twice in 2191.5 days.

quote:

This thread is about one guy's disappointment in looking for partners here on CollarMe.


Funny thing, conversations and threads often start one place and end up elsewhere. I notice the OP isn’t screaming about where the thread is going. And he was on after you posted you rant. Or it went in the direction it did.
Tony

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 7:21:34 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
I think it's funny that many here think that lack of a safeword means I have lowered the bar for my ethical standards for play. To the contrary, I have raised those standards considerably - for myself and those with whom I play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
I don't play by some glib set of words, because they -are- a glib set of words that don't jive with who I am. I tend to be sceptical of catch phrases that get touted as gospel.


Certainly one of my points also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
I'm agreeing with that, however adding the caveat that there needs to be 100% disclosure in that initial agreement otherwise there can't be informed consent.


In advance of what could be an ongoing relationship 100% disclosure is not any more possible than is foretelling the future. I think consent is predicated upon trust in the individual and not in the specifics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
As to the other bit--obey without question? Nope. Obey with question? Yup. Questioning ain't a bad thing in our relationship. ~shrug~ Different dynamic.


Personally, I am very approachable - very willing to discuss almost anything most of the time. I make it a rule never to have conversations "in scene" however, nor during lovemaking. Any comments, possible criticisms or questions can wait until another time after come down. In other words, serious issues are discussed when it's a certainty that everyone is in a completely sober and open frame of mind. I allow myself the freedom to ask questions at any time if I need information and am not getting it by some other means. Outside of a scene, I also allow a submissive private space if she needs it - I reserve the right to ask questions about it later.

Ebb and flow, right?

Also, this is more of a hypothetical unquestioning obedience. If I state a command, and I am questioned, and to which I reply "Do it now, please" - I'd like to think a submissive would carry out my order unless there was some very obvious reason she could not, or should not (more of a hypothetical, I don't ask impossible things of a sub). Questions can become games and I may not have a completely rational reason for everything I might want or ask of a submissive - sometimes one works by intuition. I'll allow that she can often ask questions, but not to the point of absurdity. A submissive is not a 2 year old, I would hope she can figure most things out for herself. What she can't figure out she can ask about afterwards (as above). The answers with which she may be unsatisfied do not alleviate her of doing as commanded if it is my final word on a subject. These issues could be trivial or life and death important - one doesn't always have time or the inclination for questions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
...I was saying that I don't subscribe to the school of thought that believes if you don't follow generally accepted standards of "SSC" you are a dangerous abusive/self-abusive person...I simply don't embrace "SSC" as a defining factor for what makes something BDSM vs abuse.


Nor do I.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquisd
If you do not need a safeword, then do you not make the ASSUMPTION that nothing can go array with the scene - that you have planned for every little bit of change in the universal structure?


Awry? Sure, things can happen. I would tend to think I would notice this. For example: if a submissive passes out - she can't tell me, I would have to notice.

I mean, at some point this "safewording" all falls apart. If a perfectly healthy and wide awake sub is restrained, blindfolded and gagged, and if her hands are likewise restrained - what's her safeword sign? Wiggling her ears? If she is restrained, I check her vitals - I check for responsiveness in her extremities, etc. She can't tell me shit, it's a practical impossibility.

Let's be honest about this issue once and for all. Yes, it's better than nothing and potentially smart with strangers. But for hard, serious players that know each other well - safewording is often impractical and makes no sense whatever. It might even be impossible for practical reasons as I have already indicated. You have trust who you play with - that's more important than anything else. Period.

Better than a safeword is an attentive Dom that doesn't need green-yellow-red signals to guide his actions.

If you have safeworded, my guess is that it's too late already to prevent a mishap. Some wanker that is a near stranger to you might have just marked you for life because you thought it was worth the risk to play with safewords rather than with true knowledge of a person. I don't think someone's reputation makes much difference either. Human beings are not lemmings, just because the many leap over the cliff doesn't mean you have to as well.

I realize that people assume the risk to play more casually. Not my cup of tea. Nor do I think that people enter into such arrangements with their thinking caps on. I think people that play casually with safewords are thinking mainly with hormone injected impulses. I don't find that SSC, at all.

You have to think with your big heads, not your little heads and clits.

Safewording is cop-out, band-aid solution that makes casual play plausible. Nothing more, nothing less. Safewording is the false face of safety. I'm going to give safewording the 65:35 ratio of effectiveness that condoms have. That's better than 50:50 but not by much. Safewording, like condoms, is a flawed safety scheme.

Deeply flawed.


(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Giving up excellent - 11/10/2005 7:24:08 AM   
Phoenxx


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline
quote:

That word "consensual" is a sticking point for many of us Doms,

If you think consensual doesn’t play apart of what we do, just wait until someone you play with non-consensually calls the cops. Or a doctor sees the marks and calls them. Or any one of the many ways someone in this lifestyle can run into the law. I dare you to tell them that you don't believe in consensual then.
You could end up being a bad man’s very good friend.
Tony

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 7:44:45 AM   
Phoenxx


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline
quote:

I mean, at some point this "safewording" all falls apart. If a perfectly healthy and wide awake sub is restrained, blindfolded and gagged, and if her hands are likewise restrained - what's her safeword sign? Wiggling her ears? If she is restrained, I check her vitals - I check for responsiveness in her extremities, etc. She can't tell me shit, it's a practical impossibility.


You put a bell in her hand. If she is in distress she drops it. Or makes a special ringing with it. Beethoven’s Fifth works. Plus stopping and whipping out a blood pressure cuff seems to me that it might just break the ebb and flow a bit more dramatically then yelling out YELLOW? Ok that’s taking it a bit far, but wiggling her ears is too LOL.

quote:

Also, this is more of a hypothetical unquestioning obedience. If I state a command, and I am questioned, and to which I reply "Do it now, please" - I'd like to think a submissive would carry out my order unless there was some very obvious reason she could not, or should not (more of a hypothetical, I don't ask impossible things of a sub).


So what if something you haven’t discussed comes up? You trigger a fear response in the submissive. Yes, many a Dom will catch on and stop to see what is up. But your missing one of what I have found to be the biggest advantage to safe words. Giving the bottom confidence. It shows you are taking her needs into consideration. And in any relationship if you do not do that, your not going to have many long term ones. No it’s not about appeasing the bottom. It is about maintaining a relationship. If you stomp all over someone’s needs and ego all the time, you can bet sooner or later it’s going to come back and bite you on the ASSets… lol

You do have your right to opinions. But insulting those who disagree with you is more likely to get your good points overlooked. And then you find yourself surrounded by only those that agree with you. Next thing you know, all you know is all you ever know. Because no one has any different ideas. I would rather have a few people who agree with me and a few who have different opinions around. I learn from both.
Tony


(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 8:32:11 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
People are becoming overly hidebound to "SSC" and it no longer means anything.

BTW, it is my experience that when a sub is in subspace - and I mean "gone" - she's not going to safeword for almost any reason. She's just not that present any longer. She needs the person that got her there to keep her there for a time and to bring her back safely.

And it has nothing to do with safewords.

It is also my experience that politics are also a very heavy part of why safewords do not work in practice. I "know" that subs that need to and want to safeword - desperately - WILL NOT SAFEWORD. They do not wish to be thought of as subs that can't take what gets dished out.

Safewording is a huge mess of an idea.

Anyway, I don't talk bullshit. I talk what's real - what I have seen and experienced first-hand. Some of you still want to cling to this "SSC" thing and wave it around like a flag. Well, it's like any flag - meaningless on its own, full of meaning for those to whom it means something.

How many threads have you read here where someone talks about being the DM somewhere and having to stop some possibly abusive play? Plenty. Uh gee - weren't they playing SSC? Weren't they in a public space or a play party? How do these things happen?

I know how they happen.

(in reply to Phoenxx)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 9:34:11 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
What people are saying, that you are disregarding, though, is that safewords -can- make a situation easier for both parties.

Yes, things can go wrong, of course. However, it's another line of defense. Say, for example, you know the pesron you're playing with pretty/very well, you believe you can judge their reactions with fairly good acuracy. Say that while you are playing, something happens that is unforseen. A combination of words you use recalls past abuse, for example, and the bottom in question freezes up. Or, hell, say the bottom gets a leg crap that you simply don't notice. It happens. Safewords make a nice backup security method. One doesn't have to remember or be able to say "please stop something has happened." ONe only needs to be able to get out one word.

They aren't my first choice line of defense, and I can count on one hand the times I've -used- safewords, but it -is- a nice backup to have. You're disregarding that there -are- benifits to safewords, when used as a precautionary measure and not as the be-all, end-all of communication.

Of =course= things go wrong with safewords, but things go wrong with close partners and open communication as well. I'd rather be familiar with all three in case, for some reason, my partner misses a signal, or someone we're playing with misses a signal.

It does worry me to see how many people think that if one has a safeword one is protect from all evil, bad, people. It worrys me that individuals forget that safewords mean nothing if the person you're playing with chooses to disregard them, but inthis converation, we're talking about a situation with partners that care about, or at least know each other well and play within each other's lines.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 2:24:53 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
They aren't my first choice line of defense, and I can count on one hand the times I've -used- safewords, but it -is- a nice backup to have.


If there's an emergency situation I should know about, I don't mind the sub speaking up about it. I don't call it safewording, I call it open lines of communication, or more simply - intimacy. At the same time, I wouldn't want her to be too chatty during a scene unless I am addressing her.

This really isn't as monstrous as others would make it out to be. But I think it goes some way towards defining the power structures between the parties. If a sub were ever to try green-yellow-red safewording with me I'd probably just laugh and leave the situation. Such a submissive can find herself an automaton to provide those services for her.


< Message edited by Chaingang -- 11/10/2005 6:08:01 PM >

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Giving up - 11/10/2005 2:31:25 PM   
LacieDoll


Posts: 21
Joined: 10/30/2005
Status: offline
My question would be: Why he felt compelled to state he was leaving if he didn't like the people here to begin with or find what he was looking for. If I was dissatisfied, I would simply look for someplace else. So what did he feel he would accomplish by posting what he did?

(in reply to Cloudz)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Giving up - 11/10/2005 4:42:57 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Hi Christys,

Just sending a note to say hi and see if you'd care to chat some time? I'm a 24yr old man from Indiana. At the moment I'm trying to meet and talk to a lot of new people in search of the right girl to become master to. This would be my first serious, live-in bdsm relationship, but I am ready for it and wishing to get started now. If this sounds good to you, please write me a reply, however if you're looking for more experienced or specifically trained masters, I will understand that.

Thanks for reading, hope I'll hear from you real soon!

Andy/MrADude2004


Andy; if You can bear a few comments on Your letter, which You say has failed You for 3 years?

1. What You wrote indicated You wanted to collar the girl. This is annoying because there has been absolutely no opportunity to interact, and so we/i think You are responding only to our/my physicality -- my pic.

2. A letter from a Dominant Man -- particularly a 1st letter -- does NOT include any hint of insecurity, ineptitude, etc. The whole "i've never had a 24-bdsm before" is incongruit with a Dominant Man's character inasmuch as He is a natural leader; a confident soul, etc.

3. Your letter makes no mention of why You chose to contact this girl; nothing from her profile which made her outstanding in Your mind and excited You enough to take the time to write.

Lastly, there are young Dominants and Masters here on CM, and many communities have TheNextGeneration clubs for people 18 to 25 yrs. Both resources are excellent. i count a few young Men amoung my friends, and They may ask me a question occassionally but in the main They are confident and growing more proficinet in BDSM activities as time goes by.

i say this with compassion. i myself have deactivated my profile before, when my heart hurt for some reason, and many times my hope has been thin. At times like these, it has been my friends who've supported me. What i am trying to say is that it happens to all of us who are searching; Your experience is not unique.

i wish You the best, whatever You choose to do.

candystripper


< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/10/2005 5:23:00 PM >

(in reply to MrADude2004)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Giving up excellent - 11/10/2005 4:54:58 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Well, I believe in building trust and deserving it but frankly I think safewords are for idiots. If you need a safeword you aren't safe or knowledgable or an aware player to begin with. Plus I find the idea of safewords offensive as if the Dom/top were just a facilitator of some kind. Don't set the bar too high unappealingly high please.

Theory is one thing, practice is another.


quote:

I guess I'm an idiot. Please don't tell my publisher or the people I play with. I seem to have them fooled.

What's offensive to me is people who feel they know the one true way and feel free to insult others. But then that's just me.

JohnWarren


Sir...i think this is an example of what is known in government as "The Tallest Person in the Room" syndrome. Others see the respect and deference You are afforded, become jealous, and come to believe they can "steal Your thunder" by insulting You in public.

i'm sure You've run across this before.

candystripper


< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/10/2005 4:55:38 PM >

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 5:34:52 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

What people are saying, that you are disregarding, though, is that safewords -can- make a situation easier for both parties.

Yes, things can go wrong, of course. However, it's another line of defense. Say, for example, you know the pesron you're playing with pretty/very well, you believe you can judge their reactions with fairly good acuracy. Say that while you are playing, something happens that is unforseen. A combination of words you use recalls past abuse, for example, and the bottom in question freezes up. Or, hell, say the bottom gets a leg crap that you simply don't notice. It happens. Safewords make a nice backup security method. One doesn't have to remember or be able to say "please stop something has happened." ONe only needs to be able to get out one word.

They aren't my first choice line of defense, and I can count on one hand the times I've -used- safewords, but it -is- a nice backup to have. You're disregarding that there -are- benifits to safewords, when used as a precautionary measure and not as the be-all, end-all of communication.

Of =course= things go wrong with safewords, but things go wrong with close partners and open communication as well. I'd rather be familiar with all three in case, for some reason, my partner misses a signal, or someone we're playing with misses a signal.

It does worry me to see how many people think that if one has a safeword one is protect from all evil, bad, people. It worrys me that individuals forget that safewords mean nothing if the person you're playing with chooses to disregard them, but inthis converation, we're talking about a situation with partners that care about, or at least know each other well and play within each other's lines.


People get a huge hardon for safewords and often completely ignore the concept of direct communication. Someone who is too "gone" to use direct communication is probably too "gone" to remember what code word means what. How reliable are safewords anyway? As reliable as the person using them. If a person is more comfortable speaking in code than spelling it out, how reliable are they?

Where did safewords come from, anyway? I used to use safewords before I even know what sadomasochism was. I used safewords when I would tell my boyfriend (who was tied up and could not get away), "I want you to pretend you don't like this, I want you to struggle, I want you to resist, I want you to say NO. But if you ever really do MEAN it, here's a code word so I don't have to keep stopping you and asking, "are you just faking it, or is it real this time?"

But the word "roleplaying" offends a lot of kinky people because they don't like to feel like what they do isn't "real". I would argue that in most cases the appropriate use of safewords is in ROLEPLAY, when a real message can be mistaken for "make believe" because both people are playing make believe. Or, when a person is gagged, and can only communicate "stop" by a signal. Otherwise, good old fashioned, "oh, shit, I have a leg cramp!" is more effective than "RED".

Safewords when used to REPLACE communication only HINDER communication. They also add a whole level of drama -- the sub that "never safewords," the dominant that prides himself in "never had to make a sub red but got them to yellow again and again" or whatever.

Worse, they make partners lazy in communication. Imagine if in a relationship instead of having to tell your partner what was *really* bothering you about them, you only had to "yellow" and then'd tone down whatever it was they were doing. What if your relationship was considered really fluid because you could convey stop, start, and slow down with code words when making love?

Safewords were created so that people who were playing make believe resistance games could effectively say "STOP" and have the other person understand. Safewords have now become "cool" and something "scene people" think are a must, to the point that they replace real words that communicate much more complex emotions and roadblocks.

People that really like to use safewords do so because talking like two normal human beings somehow takes the 'edge' or 'cool factor' out of bdsm, or ruins their headspace perhaps. I don't feel "less domly" if my partner says "I need to pee." I also have no problem telling him to use codes if we are playing "make believe" (I LOVE roleplaying). Or is it that a dominant feels threatened by words like "stop," or "slow down," or "ok, this is getting too be too heavy for me, I need a second to breathe" because they suddenly feel this direct communication is a sign of their lack of control? Like they are being directed?

The other thing that bothers me about safewords is that it's one more level of "drama" that makes BDSM clunky, uncomfortable and foreign to vanilla women who are trying to get comfortable with dominating their male partner. Telling them they have to learn codes to find out what their man is saying in the middle of BDSM makes it seem even more goofy or awkward. Does anyone remember the scene in "Desperate Housewives" when Rex tried to explain to Bree what a safeword was? How did that go over? Just how it does in a lot of bedrooms, I think.

Safewords serve a VERY important purpose when CLEAR communication might be skewed. But BDSMers who are all about "the protocol" use them, talk about them and defend them like they are the end-all, be-all to BDSM. They aren't. COMMUNICATION is. The old fashioned kind -- with sentences and meaning.

Akasha


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(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 8:31:06 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
THAT was what I was trying to say. Thank you Aakasha.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 11:09:10 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
Yeah, what AAkasha said was pretty good. In fact, many have said really good things here just last month (a related topic):
http://www.collarchat.com/m_174230/mpage_1/key_Safe%2CSane/tm.htm

(WickedKev had some great stuff in there about poseurs. Perfect! Sounds to me like he has also been to too many tedious fashion show type "balls" thrown by the likes of Skin Two, House of Whacks, Club Fuck, etc. More local to me I have seen the GGPET scene at Power Exchange and just had to restrain gales of laughter. All those people looking so natty and not having a clue as to what they were doing.)

BTW, Candystripper: I don't know John Warren, never read his book, don't necessarily care to. I am not trying to steal his thunder - I am unaware of his thunder. If he states some kind of bozo shit here and then even tries to rhetorically claim himself as a known authority I will just laugh and call him out on it. I don't deny him a right to his opinions, he should have just stated it - but he isn't an authority to me just because he's published. To me he is a perfect stranger - unknown, untried, and mistrusted - just as I would treat any stranger. Even if I had read his book I would feel this way, people are not books - knowing the one is not knowledge of the other. I can tell right away he doesn't play my way. I don't care about that, but I don't see why I or anyone else should care about his opinions about how to play - not beyond reading it here and taking or leaving it at face value. I accord him no special position.

You know, if God shows up - you can tell him I'd like some words with him too.

I still personally think Safewording is for idiots. It's like one of those books entitled something like: "Computers for Idiots" or "S/m for Idiots." People who have been around - or even semi-intelligent people - don't need some freaking platitudes to define themselves or their activities. I have been at this for about 20 years and I have strong opinions on what works and what doesn't. I am not even sure that teaching things like Safewording or SSC is useful to newbies. They have to find out what's right for them, often by themselves, at their own pace.

If newbies cannot be sensitive to their partners or don't have good lines of communication to begin with, some dumbass word isn't going to give it to them. Nor is some kind of mantra like "Safe, Sane, and Consensual." It would be like trying to explain to a tone deaf person the beauty of music - they're just not going to get it.

I am hardly alone in these views of mine. I just refuse to talk shit and nonsense. Don't like it, walk away or put me on block or whatever (I don't read everything posted here either). I'm not here to handhold. I am here to have intelligent, meaningful exchanges with people that are capable of independent thought beyond a few trendy phrases or ideas. And like I said, while some of you might use those trendy phrases and ideas to weed someone like me out of your field of attention; I do the exact same thing from the other side using the exact same criteria.

Some might find these links helpful:

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACK
"Specifically, RACK is intended to embrace edgeplay and play that is engaged in without safewords."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safeword
"While many in the BDSM community consider safewords an essential part of safe play, there is a significant contingent that does not have any such term in their relationships or their play. Some of these people simply use the word Stop. Others rely on the top to monitor the condition of the bottom and stop if necessary, at their discretion. In such circumstances the bottom or submissive must have consented not to have control over the duration of the scene in advance.
Interestingly some of those who recommend safewords do not, themselves, use them though this is not often discussed in public. There is an undercurrent assumption that play without safewords is an "advanced" technique and should not be advocated in the hearing of novices. BDSM activity without a safeword is regarded by many as inadvisable and dangerous. Ignoring safewords is considered dishonorable and a deeply immoral practice in the BDSM community."

http://lthredge.com/ds/ssc.pdf
Safewords can’t save you from a bad scene or a bad relationship with someone you didn’t know as well as you thought you did, and chanting “Safe Sane Consensual” like a mantra can’t replace years of study and practice in guiding you through the maze of choices we all must make. Whether you do S/M to achieve ecstasy, intimacy, or self-transformation, or simply to have a good time, all that the terms “safe, sane, and consensual” can do is suggest where to begin drawing some boundaries. After that, the real work of establishing — and testing — your individual limits begins.

...

"Interestingly some of those who recommend safewords do not, themselves, use them though this is not often discussed in public. " Great! I bet some of you didn't know that. I did. Interesting, huh? What is good for you is different than what they want for themselves.

I didn't know about some of these opinions before tonight but I don't mind keeping good company.

Just remember: There are no rules.




< Message edited by Chaingang -- 11/10/2005 11:10:37 PM >

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/10/2005 11:49:52 PM   
Phoenxx


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline
Just because you use only left handed flogging shouldn’t mean you call everyone that uses their right hand idiots.
Just like safe words. As time goes on safe words play less and less a part of your play, scene whatever. But, telling someone just starting out that you should just dive in and know what your doing is asinine. If someone wants to use safe words, so what? If they want to live by SSC, RACK, Go, or the rules of King Arthur’s court, that is their right.
Attacking them is not going to make them change their mind, anymore then this posting will change yours.
You do have some damn excellent points. A safe word IS NOT an excuse for not having open lines of communication. It is a tool. No, it will not protect you from someone who doesn’t care about you. Or someone that is dangerously abusive. Or if you go into subspace. And on a side note, when fawn hits subspace I have to watch her breathing. And talk to her to bring her back slowly out of it. When I have her in the A-frame, I know that lowering her arms can cause a blood pressure drop that can lead to fainting. And we still have a safe word system in place. It’s a back up. Not a replacement.
Let’s look at where a safe word can save your butt. You are doing a play rape fantasy. You give the girl a safe word, fuzzy pickles. Now if she says stop, you know it’s still part of the play. However if she says fuzzy pickles you stop. If you don’t now your into real rape. If afterwards she changes her mind and tries to say she wanted you to stop and you didn’t, you can show intent.
Yes, you can say all you want you don’t play with anyone you don’t know. Great! But those who do not follow your rules, might have different needs.
And yes play at a fetish event can get carried away. And some people break the law and speed when they drive. And some people do dangerous and deadly drugs… and some smoke and some… So you don’t just throw everything out because some asshole goes to far or does something dangerous. That’s why you have bouncers at bars, cops on the street, and DM’s at events. And have a general safe word. If I hear someone saying red I know they are feeling in distress. And as a DM I can step in.
Did you know that 1/3 of all doctors in the US of A do not have their children vaccinated? Yet they still ram the needle. I know several people who do not use safe words in their private play but still teach it when giving S&M 101. Let’s face it after 20 years you know a hell of a lot more then that couple just coming out to their first event with the $20 novelty flogger they bought at the local silly shop. And if someone hadn’t taken the time to teach you, where would you be? We were all newbies once. And we all learn and grow. What we do now is different then what we did and what we will do.
Baby steps first. Didn’t you have to take them?
Tony

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Safewording Digression - 11/11/2005 12:06:55 AM   
Phoenxx


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang


http://lthredge.com/ds/ssc.pdf
Safewords can’t save you from a bad scene or a bad relationship with someone you didn’t know as well as you thought you did, and chanting “Safe Sane Consensual” like a mantra can’t replace years of study and practice in guiding you through the maze of choices we all must make. Whether you do S/M to achieve ecstasy, intimacy, or self-transformation, or simply to have a good time, all that the terms “safe, sane, and consensual” can do is suggest where to begin drawing some boundaries. After that, the real work of establishing — and testing — your individual limits begins.



Thanks for posting that link. Some great information is in there. Maybe we should look at a new slogan ;-)

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 120
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