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RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 3:01:02 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Delahunt's excuse was that he had confused himself with al-Qaeda.

That's not too hard to believe. In the case of a Democratic Congressman, that's probably a very easy mistake to make.

Got a real source? Foxnews isn't exactly reliable and trustworthy, are they?

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Post #: 21

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 3:03:01 PM

farglebargle

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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
Nobody wound up at Gitmo for failing to sell enough girlscout cookies

*** PROVE IT ***

Why are the Loyal Bushies *so* scared to let a court hold Habeas Corpus hearings if your assertion is true?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DomAviator)

Post #: 22

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 3:04:06 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Delahunt's excuse was that he had confused himself with al-Qaeda.

That's not too hard to believe. In the case of a Democratic Congressman, that's probably a very easy mistake to make.

"Freudian slip" seems appropriate, in the best case.

Worst case ... impeachment?

(Now, listen to the screams of "you just don't understand" from the left ...)

Firm

PS. Absolutely hilarious post, Sanity!

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Post #: 23

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 3:07:52 PM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

I not only support torture of the terrorists at Gitmo, I think it should be shown on cable as a premium channel! That would help fund the fight to preserve our liberties and would make a hell of a lot of families - such as the 9-11 firefighters - pretty damned happy. Nobody wound up at Gitmo for failing to sell enough girlscout cookies, These are dangerous animals who want us dead, ALL of us. I do not understand how anyone could feel bad for these monsters....

There are terrorists at Gitmo, DA!? How do you know that? Got inside info? Know something that Bush doesn't?

We don't even officially know who is there and why they are being held. There have been no charges, no tirals, no nothing... except accusations. Good ole' frontier justice... "Well he LOOKED sorta like a horse thief, Sheriff, so we strung him up!" - "Oh well boys, better a few innocents get lynched than lawlessness and horse thievery be permitted".

When someone, anyone, at Gitmo gets real due process and is found guilty of terrorism, let us know. Until then the detainees are not even accused of anything. They are simply detained on suspicion and suspicion is not enough to continue holding them, let alone torturing them.

Z.

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Post #: 24

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 3:20:26 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

I not only support torture of the terrorists at Gitmo, I think it should be shown on cable as a premium channel! That would help fund the fight to preserve our liberties and would make a hell of a lot of families - such as the 9-11 firefighters - pretty damned happy. Nobody wound up at Gitmo for failing to sell enough girlscout cookies, These are dangerous animals who want us dead, ALL of us. I do not understand how anyone could feel bad for these monsters....

There are terrorists at Gitmo, DA!? How do you know that? Got inside info? Know something that Bush doesn't?

We don't even officially know who is there and why they are being held. There have been no charges, no tirals, no nothing... except accusations. Good ole' frontier justice... "Well he LOOKED sorta like a horse thief, Sheriff, so we strung him up!" - "Oh well boys, better a few innocents get lynched than lawlessness and horse thievery be permitted".

When someone, anyone, at Gitmo gets real due process and is found guilty of terrorism, let us know. Until then the detainees are not even accused of anything. They are simply detained on suspicion and suspicion is not enough to continue holding them, let alone torturing them.

Ok, Z. Not a problem. We can fix this one easy.

From now on, we simply don't take prisoner anymore on the battlefield. Shooting them is legal, and will completely do away with all the crap we are taking over the camps in Gitmo.

Problem solved.

Unfortunately, just like most lefty driven solutions, sometimes it is the drive for the appearance of "impartiality" and "fairness" that makes the world more partial and less fair.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 6/27/2008 3:22:26 PM >

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Post #: 25

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 3:22:23 PM

Thadius

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Yet nobody wants to talk about all of the "prisoners" that have been released, or that many of the countries that these "prisoners" are citizens of are unwilling to take them back.

Sorry to go off topic a bit here... but I seem to remember congress having a huge debate and setting a protocol for how these folks were to be processed, the end of which was supposed to be militarty tribunals. How can the courts overstep that authority and grant themselves any sort of jurisdiction that was not given to them by Congress?

This also brings up a couple of interesting side effects. If we declare that anybody taken prisoner by the military is subject to the judicial process back here in the states, does this mean that we are going to now require soldiers to maintain chains of evidence, pick up every piece of debris that may or may not be evidence, and basicly treat engagements like crime scenes after the fact?
Secondly, does this open up our men and women to the judicial processes of a government if they happen to be captured? I can think of a few places where violating Shiria law can be punished by death, even though those violations would not be "illegal" under most international laws.

Sorry for ranting... just some things to contemplate.

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Post #: 26

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 3:25:19 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Secondly, does this open up our men and women to the judicial processes of a government if they happen to be captured? I can think of a few places where violating Shiria law can be punished by death, even though those violations would not be "illegal" under most international laws.

Hey ... another "unintended consequence" of lefty thinking.

However, this is likely one that the "lefties" wouldn't mind so much ...

Firm

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Some people are just idiots.

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Post #: 27

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 4:55:42 PM

Vendaval

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Hello Thadius, in regards to unintended consequences, this report may be of interest to you -

"America's prison for terrorists often held the wrong men"

Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008

"An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that Akhtiar was one of dozens of men — and, according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments.

McClatchy interviewed 66 released detainees, more than a dozen local officials — primarily in Afghanistan — and U.S. officials with intimate knowledge of the detention program. The investigation also reviewed thousands of pages of U.S. military tribunal documents and other records.

This unprecedented compilation shows that most of the 66 were low-level Taliban grunts, innocent Afghan villagers or ordinary criminals. At least seven had been working for the U.S.-backed Afghan government and had no ties to militants, according to Afghan local officials. In effect, many of the detainees posed no danger to the United States or its allies.

The investigation also found that despite the uncertainty about whom they were holding, U.S. soldiers beat and abused many prisoners.

Prisoner mistreatment became a regular feature in cellblocks and interrogation rooms at Bagram and Kandahar air bases, the two main way stations in Afghanistan en route to Guantanamo.

While he was held at Afghanistan's Bagram Air Base, Akhtiar said, "When I had a dispute with the interrogator, when I asked, 'What is my crime?' the soldiers who took me back to my cell would throw me down the stairs."

The McClatchy reporting also documented how U.S. detention policies fueled support for extremist Islamist groups. For some detainees who went home far more militant than when they arrived, Guantanamo became a school for jihad, or Islamic holy war."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/detainees/story/38773.html

_____________________________

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Post #: 28

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 5:08:03 PM

NumberSix

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Joined: 12/30/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Secondly, does this open up our men and women to the judicial processes of a government if they happen to be captured? I can think of a few places where violating Shiria law can be punished by death, even though those violations would not be "illegal" under most international laws.

Hey ... another "unintended consequence" of lefty thinking.

However, this is likely one that the "lefties" wouldn't mind so much ...

Firm

Well, first of all, this is some laudaunum induced shit right here.

Perhaps you care to explain the difference between rhetoric, dogma, reality and the number of western women (say for instance that waste of oxygen. 'Fuck Me Boots' Rice) who as westerners and of different culture have not succumbed to the shock and awe and virulent Shirra law for not wearing Bhurkas, eating with thier shitting hand (saw it on tv) and various other and sundry other crimes against allah?

You pose these questions against some straw man all the time, my esteemed colleague across the aisle, but they are as empty a rhetoric as any mullah.

6

I surmise that the level of asswipe in their rhetoric is no greater than ours.

< Message edited by NumberSix -- 6/27/2008 5:10:34 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 5:11:39 PM

Thadius

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Thanks for the link.. I hadn't read that article.

Doesn't this ultimately show that those that are of no threat are being released? Afterall, he states clearly "interviewed 66 released detainees".

I would also point to your last statement, as it shows part of the bias presented from the interviewers point of view going in. "The McClatchy reporting also documented how U.S. detention policies fueled support for extremist Islamist groups. For some detainees who went home far more militant than when they arrived, Guantanamo became a school for jihad, or Islamic holy war." I can name many other things that are reported as fuelling support for Islamist groups. Such as our support of Xionist occupationalists (Israel), our various foreign policies (not just those limited to the Bush admin), and many others. Should we then just fold up and accept all of the blame for such hatred, I would personally like to see some interviews with people still detained. I would love to know how they feel about having the medical treatment, regular scheduled meals, and religious freedoms that they are receiving perhaps for the first time in their lives?

I do not deny that some prisoners may have been abused or even tortured, but I would suspect (just from my personal dealings with fellow Marines) that these issues are the exception and not the norm.

Just my opinions,
Thadius

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Post #: 30

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 5:17:14 PM

Thadius

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Hiya 6,

Of course it is just rhetoric, in both directions I might add.

I am just looking at the possible outcomes of setting this sort of precedent. Does opening up combatants to civil law, not also open up our troops to the civil law of other lands?

I know there are plenty of examples to go both ways, like the woman in Singapore, these of course are exceptions; yet make one ponder the what if the Mullahs were looking at a person in uniform.

Thanks for the input,
Thadius

_____________________________

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Post #: 31

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 5:34:03 PM

NumberSix

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Tal! Thadius.

There was a time when we were seen as a country of law and rule and might. (whether it be true or not is of no consequense, commonly speaking, war is an extension of politics by other means).

We could say, we do not torture you criminals no matter what. We do not hold people without trial ad nauseam, we do not , under any circumstances allow a defense in these matters of tu quoque.

(of course even before this, we have been guilty of this and more) but in this globe today, we are seen as colonialists, as terrorists, and all these things, and going back on our words as a PUBLIC and FEDERATED GOVERNMENTAL POLICY.

Now, as you know about.......oh--56 or so maybe 58 I should think, we passed a resolution with Russia and France (I believe) that no one could take us to world court without our permission.

Here we now sit, PUBLICLY and like WHORES assasinating world leaders, or cuffing them up.

Where is the hue and cry for democracy in Mugabes case?

Where do you stand with the situation that has been festering in Eretrea/Ethiopia for 30 some years?

Food, heat, light, babies, living, houses, and so much more runs the world than political interests?

No, a farce. Nobody here bitches too much about Afghanistan, though that is playing out poorly, and will whinge and whine aqbout tossing 300 bill at healthcare cause our government will fuck it up?

But you support these decisions in war?

I am bereft, and I will close right here. 'Tis not nearly enough, but 'tis enough.

Yours in friendship,
Hup the fuckin' Fool.

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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Post #: 32

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 5:51:14 PM

Thadius

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Evening old friend,

The only thing that I know for sure, is that we are not fighting a uniformed army, and therefore the grey areas have become more amplified. I agree that shedding light on any and all transgressions is a good thing. Yet I am not swayed by the calls to kow-tow because we are somehow at fault for all of the other actions. Those cries are of the same logic that blizzards and floods are the result of farming. If you know what I mean.

Great to see you are still alive and well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Post #: 33

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 7:07:32 PM

Termyn8or

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You again prove my point. I want you to explain just how the actions of the Israeli goverment are justified because if ANY other government did what that government does they would be bombed.

You see you try to take it that the criticism of a government is a criticism of the people, and I thought I had made it clear that there was a distinction, at least in my mind between the two. I also included that the distinction applies to US citizens as well, we have no control over what this government does, and very little control over who gets elected.

Are you in the Likud party or something ? Because when I criticize a government you seem to take it personally, or at least call it anti-Semitism. So I criticize the US government, does that make me unamerican ?

Let me clue you in on something, Semites do not control the Israeli government. What's more Jews are only a part of the Semitic races. So how am I am anti-Semite ? I ctriticize the PTB in Israel, and you take it as anti-Semitism. Is it anti-Semitic to mention the USS Liberty or Racheal Corrie ? Why ? These are facts. And if facts seem to be something that need to be suppressed I will give up completely.

I SPECIFICALLY SAID THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL, I think I made that quite clear, for you and your ilk. I don't know how much fairer I can be. You take ANY criticism of Isreal as an attack, a personal attack on Jews.

It is you who needs to reevaluate your position, not I. In fact I want opinions from others, as to whether my post, in which I STRESSED that I was criticizing the GOVERNMENT of Israel is an anti-Semitic statement. In some people's minds Israel can do no wrong, no matter what they do.

They are either for furthering the basic agenda of ethnic cleansing by the Israeli goverment or Christian zealots who do not know how to think for themselves. And to accuse me based on the post was showing your hand, and if you are associated with those people remember this, they do not have all the trump. They think they do, and actually right now, they do. But things change fast in the world and the "leadership" of the Israeli government is leading the people to a slaughter. That government is doing Jews a real disservice by associating them with the atrocities they have commited, just like in the US.

I want to know exactly what statements I made that were anti-Semitic.(in that post)

And DA, if you think the actions of the US government are just fine, pay your taxes and obey the "law". You better document every dime you pay your dogshit scooper guy and give him a W2. It meets the requirements, you decide when the work will be done and where it will be done. Therefore you need to see two forms of ID, at least one with his SSN on it and take out taxes and submit him a W2 every year. Obey the law.

And if they come for you I will say that I am not an Aviator so I don't care. And then I say I am not this or that, so I don't care. And when they come for me there will be likely noone left.

That concept is actually from a Jewish saying.

But the fact is, if you think it is OK for the US or any other entity to stoop to the tactics of an unworthy enemy, I will have to withdraw that offer to go have a beer. To me, the torture is fine, but the neo-cons asking for exemption from internatrional laws and conventions is an act that should have gotten them executed IMO.

No, the act of torture is not fine, but it pales in comparison to trying to exempt yourself from the laws of the planet. It is there they really fucked up.

I have a criminal mind in a way, I remember. If you are going to do something bad, don't get caught. And don't telegraph your intentions like they did.What are they fucking stupid ? Everybody in Europe knows what they did now, and US citizens sometimes go to a class to learn how to act like Canadians, for their own safety when traveling abroad.

Is this our legacy ? Anything that two countries in the world does is OK, but we and they are going to hold the rest of the world to the utmost of standards.

Saddam's gassing of people was not his bust, Iran did it. Saddam was not perfect, but remember who put him there.

Y'kmow, I may have just discovered an Iraq AlQuaeda link inadvertently. They did not get along,but maybe for a common goal they may have sat down and decided to show the world. Saddam was an asshole, but under his regime the country did make progress, which we bombed out of existence. But when it comes to AlQuaeda there is Afganistan.

So what if they got together and said "OK, you do 911, and in a short time we will convert to euros and show the world where their priotities are".

Would have worked,and maybe it did. There is only one country hated more than theUS now in the world. I won't mention it because kit may vomit on the keyboard and I do want a response to my issues. But EVERYONE outside the US already knows what country that is, and via the internet and other sources,more and more people know.

Is it all lies kit ? Is the Israeli government flawlees and just ? They are perfect and what., waiting for the second coming ? Of course to them it would be the first coming, which is the only real debate between Christians and Jews. They agree on alot of things.

But I will tell you what, I don't believe there will be any coming and don't know if there ever was, but all of the people running these governments certainly would not want to see it. Of that there is no question. I have done some nasty shit in my life but these peole got me beat a thousandfold.

To say that I am anti-Semitic, or anti-Jew, would be to say that every Hebrew Jew on the planet has direct control over what the Israeli government does. I did not say that. Come on, Israel defies the UN and other international bodies, and now the US is in the game as well. These "leaders" do not represent the will of the people. Never did in our lifetime, and never will.

I await you responses detailing how someone can conclude that I am anti Semitic or how torture is OK now, when for years it was a calling cry for activists all over the world.

And you think waterboarding is OK, FINE, what about being stripped naked and having an attack dog set on you ? I have the pictures, you call me on it and I will scan them and upload them. I got plenty of personal FTP space. And why did the medic give the thumbs up ? That is a sign of hubris, and it is reflective of our "leaders".

I want responses to these two issues. How is it OK for one entity to do something and not OK for another ?

Tell me please.

T

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 34

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 8:02:25 PM

Vendaval

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Thadius, the answers to your questions are included in the larger report. It is actually a series of reports on Guantanamo Bay. Rather than try to paraphrase it all, I will let you read it and form your own opinions.

Regards,

Vendaval

Edited to add -

"I would also point to your last statement, as it shows part of the bias presented from the interviewers point of view going in."

I think that there is misunderstanding here, the last paragraph is directly from the article, not from myself.

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 6/27/2008 8:08:03 PM >

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 35

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 8:10:38 PM

Thadius

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Wow,

Can you show me anywhere that I called anybody, or even used the words anti-semite?

I have no clue where you are coming up with all of these words being put into my mouth, but I suggest that you reread my posts. I am not even sure if I have responded to a post of yours, besides this one.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Post #: 36

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 8:12:40 PM

Thadius

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V,
I noticed that as I just reread it. Sorry for the misinterpretation. It is an interesting report, I still would like to see other sources. You know the old trust but verify, mentality.

Thanks again for pointing me towards the article.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Post #: 37

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 8:31:35 PM

DomAviator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

And DA, if you think the actions of the US government are just fine, pay your taxes and obey the "law". You better document every dime you pay your dogshit scooper guy and give him a W2. It meets the requirements, you decide when the work will be done and where it will be done. Therefore you need to see two forms of ID, at least one with his SSN on it and take out taxes and submit him a W2 every year. Obey the law.

....

And you think waterboarding is OK, FINE, what about being stripped naked and having an attack dog set on you ? I have the pictures, you call me on it and I will scan them and upload them. I got plenty of personal FTP space. And why did the medic give the thumbs up ? That is a sign of hubris, and it is reflective of our "leaders".

My dogshit guy is not an employee he is a contractor. I am his CUSTOMER not his employer. I am in full compliance with the law. When you go to Burger King do you get a W2 from them? No cause you arent hiring them, you are purchasing their service.

Being stripped naked is a standard part of detention. In fact, there are even rules for how to make the most of it psychologically. For example female prisoners should be made to undress themselves, while males should be undressed forcibly by other males. Psychologists have studied the issue and found this to be most effective as it is more humilating to make a woman undress whereas it is more humiliating to undress a man by force. The nudity is standard - as is the pyramids, etc... In fact a standard technique is to strip the heterosexual male prisoners and to bunch them up so tightly that they are touching front to back and to march them in circles in the sun afternoon sun till one or more pass out - all the while screaming at them with a bullhorn about what their women at home are doing. Animal or insect bites are another part of the process; as is filth, feces, vomit, etc... The bugs are actually welcomed as they give you something to eat. Textbook SERE stuff. After I completed SERE training, I needed rabies shots for the rat bites I got when I was thrown in the pit...

There is absolutely nothing that we have done in Abu G'Raib that I have not personally experienced at SERE, and for that they can blame nobody but themselves. Who do you think writes the SERE curriculum? Our enemies! Everything done in SERE is stuff that they have ALREADY done to our men and women. Thats what the R is "Resistance" - Survival, Evasion Resistance and Escape.

Its too bad that they don't like it being done to them, but oh well guess they shouldnt have taught it to us then huh? If its OK to do to American air crew, intelligence, and special operations personell - then its fine for muslim terrorists. At least we dont saw heads off and post the videos to the Internet like they do...

Edited to add: Whoops, I mispoke, they didnt do the panties on the head thing at SERE. I was doing that dancing around wherever there were townie girls and Jerimiah Weed! Panties on the head, ooooooooh noooo by the name of allah please not the pink thong I will tell you all I beg of you not the thong!!!! The fuckers were made to eat pig, drink liqour, get naked, jerk off in front of females, and put panties on their heads... Thats torture? No thats a pig roast and wild party at Kev's house. LOL

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 6/27/2008 8:52:53 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 38

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 8:38:07 PM

Lordandmaster

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So torture is OK because we've always had torture? That's not an argument.

And anyone who knows ANYTHING about interrogation will tell you that torture doesn't prevent 9/11's; if anything, it brings them about. Torture elicits misinformation, not information (especially when you're torturing someone who doesn't know a fucking thing, like most of the detainees at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo). 9/11's are prevented by doing something we have apparently forgotten how to do. It's called intelligence. Here, read this:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/09/11/060911fa_fact

THAT'S how you get information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

However, as a student of history, I would like to point out that if anyone thinks that the detainees at Gitmo are the first to be questioned using unorthodox means, I would suggest you get your head out of the sand.

Some former military personnel might remember the term 'long distance phone call.'
This is the technique of taking the electrical leads from a crank field telephone and attaching them to the body of the person being questioned. The shock given by cranking the handle is both painful and very severe. If not done correctly, stopping the subjects heart is the result.

This activity by the intelligence agencies of this country is niether new, nor is it unheard of. The only reason that congress is acting on it now is because it became public knowledge.

It always has been the practice of the government to turn a blind eye to any activity performed by intelligence services as long as the public is never made aware of the acts. The public can suspect all it wants, but unless someone prints proof, the old saying "see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil" applies.

The question that should be asked is, what are the limits when it deals with national security?

Do you really think you would complain, cry foul, bemoan the mistreatment of detainees if information gathered prevented another 9/11?

The people of the United States should realize two things, somethings done in the interest of national security should remain unknown to the general public, and second, the general public could give a rats ass as long as what is done keeps them safe and allows them to continue living that life of blissful ignorance.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/27/2008 8:42:26 PM >

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 39

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... - 6/27/2008 8:40:00 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

No worries, Thadius. Always good to check and verify sources. And you are most welcome.

Vendaval

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
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(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 40

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