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subs need for control - 6/27/2008 12:18:20 AM

BurntRose

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

OK, this comes from me thinking about something i wrote on the subs taking responsibilty for their submission thread in the general discussions board.

Have any of you ever been in a situation where your relationship became unfulfilling because of a sub being TOO submissive, for example doing whatever you asked without question and never challenging your will? does the pleasure of being Dominant come from your knowledge of the other persons submission, or from the act of making them submit, or from a mix of both?

Apologies if this has been discussed to death! I'm pretty new to the boards here.

Post #: 1

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 2:37:45 AM

Huntertn

Posts: 715
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline

ah--no...thats sure as hell never happen to me..lol..I like my subs alive...after all, we cann't always agree on things..not without some lively talks at times..and I think thats true of most of us...

(in reply to BurntRose)

Post #: 2

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 3:39:52 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

Yep, only one relationship and that was enough....

She was my definition of a doormat; passive and compliant to the 'enth' degree. Exactly how does one assert one's dominance and authority when there is no reluctance, attitude, challenge and occasional brattiness and defiance etc? Answer is that you don't; you're reduced to passive dominance, which is about as fulfilling as commanding a trained but mindless puppy dog.

I like disciplining my girl but it can't happen if she never says a word out of place or puts a foot wrong in general.... I like to get her female's perspective on things but it gets tedious hearing "whatever you think/want"....

I want her to be a real, normal, spirited, fallible human being, who also has a need to defer and submit - NOT a programmed drone! Doesn't seem an unreasonable expectation from your average submissive, not to me....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to BurntRose)

Post #: 3

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 5:49:48 AM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline

I had a chance to chat with my original Dom, and he enjoyed a sub that challenged Him. He liked my current Master's idea of "maintenance spankings" because He became frustrated when He had a sub so "perfect" that He never got to "punish" her.

The Master that I am with now does not micromanage but gives me a lot of leeway in how I choose to do most things. That allows me to do my best to please Him but at the same time gives room for my intelligence and creativity to flow. For those who enjoy micromanagement, whether it is the top or the bottom that enjoys it the most, the dynamic can change. Your own Dom/me should be able to tell you whether they prefer someone who is sometimes a brat, whether they always want a simple "Yes, Sir" and the task done, or whether they enjoy your input. It could even be a mix. (I've interviewed different Doms to see what style they most prefer and it differs with each person.)

_____________________________

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 4

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 5:57:35 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntRose
Have any of you ever been in a situation where your relationship became unfulfilling because of a sub being TOO submissive, for example doing whatever you asked without question and never challenging your will? does the pleasure of being Dominant come from your knowledge of the other persons submission, or from the act of making them submit, or from a mix of both?

IMO, for the Dynamic I run there is no such thing as 'too submissive'... that is NOT the same thing as being a doormat.

Being submissive she sticks within the peramaters I set, she is a good girl and rarely crosses those lines by accident and NEVER by intent.

Within that, she is a feisty, cheeky, bubbly girl with whom I have much fun banter, intelectual discussion, exchange of opinion, etc.

'Makeing her submit'????? her submission is already Mine, she is driven to please Me and the LAST thing she wants is to disapoint Me. I do push her in things she may find difficult where I 'help' her by either coaxing, encouraging or downright brutal force... whatever I see as needed or preferable to Me at the time. That is helping her achieve what is required, I don't NEED to force her submission, it is already Mine!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to BurntRose)

Post #: 5

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 6:18:28 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

no, i tend to ebb and flow with each submissive natural inclinations... when i have had the occasional "trail horse" type sub, i usually enjoy the service, because it is effortless and elegant....usually cultivated from years of someone else training that i can appreciate for a multitude of reasons.

as a dominant to these types of subs, you have to challenge your mindset, you need to really look for the little things, the nuances of how they express themselves. you need to understand how important things like order, being useful, excellence, and being of service is to them....and figure out how to feed that some how.

they are more challenging, because there is no inclination to uberdom, you have to get inside their head and appreciate the tiny shifts in facial expressions, or the timeliness of service..and they respond easily to minute shifts in your countenance as well....so the service shifts to an almost imperceptible flow of energy, that to the untrained eye might look boring, but to the two people involved is deeply rewarding.

i think that it takes years of skill as a dominant to understand and appreciate this type of submissive.

and i hate the word doormat....i think that that label is too easily tacked on to a sub with out a ever making an attempt to understand and/or appreciate what s/he is giving or getting from the service s/he is providing.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to chamberqueen)

Post #: 6

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 6:23:28 AM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

No.

My ego is not that overblown-it only gives me opportunites to challenge her to better performance yet.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to BurntRose)

Post #: 7

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 7:43:21 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

~ Fast Reply ~

I'm so glad when these threads come up. I get to learn all kinds of things.

In order to be "fulfilled"; I should have rules for my slave, but my slave should "challenge them" or at least shouldn't always obey them. That would be "too submissive". It would also exclude the possibility of having discussions where we have philosophical disagreement. Being "completely submissive" means that if I say the sky is green and the grass blue she responds with 'yes Master!" and heads out to the front lawn with blue paint. And if it's not the right shade of blue THEN I get to spank her! she's required to be "fiesty" and disobey. This is good because, when she disobeys, it provides me the opportunity to assert my disciplinary skills and spank my slave. All this time I had it wrong; spanking and doing pretty much whatever I wanted just because I enjoyed it and/or felt like doing it.

To be "fulfilled; assuming that is a desired goal for both of us. I have to MAKE her submit. she is a 'doormat' if she doesn't challenge me and my authority.

I'm turning in my 'Master-card' and going back to 'Visa'.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 6/27/2008 8:08:40 AM >

(in reply to Leatherist)

Post #: 8

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 8:06:15 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
This is good because, when she disobeys, it provides me the opportunity to assert my disciplinary skills and spank my slave. All this time I had it wrong; spanking and doing pretty much whatever I wanted just because I enjoyed it and/or felt like doing it.

Yep, confuses the feck outta Me too that apparently I need an excuse to beat her arse and that "because I want to" isn't enough

Nah feck it, I am secure enough in My self, My relationship and My control that I don't need to fabricate some lame damn excuse.

Can't say I see it as being good for the girl either, being set-up to fail just because someone lacks the confidence to pick up a cane unless they have a 'reason' to... even if the 'reason' is fabricated bullcrud and she hasn't actualy done anything wrong! Or if she has done something wrong in order to invoke a spanking or whatever, isn't she controling the timing? isn't it 'rewarding bad behaviour'?

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 9

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 8:07:38 AM

colouredin

Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
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Differance between punishment and play, so many seem confused by it

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(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 10

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 8:10:56 AM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
Status: offline

raven says that part of the reason that we work so well is that i'm specifically not a doormat and i very easily tell him no. at the same time i also know when saying no wouldn't be such a good idea. i have dominanted people who were doormats. i think it lasted a whole three weeks before it imploded. i understand that some people are natural doormats but if it gets to the point where i'm dominating someone out of pure frustration it's time to walk away.

_____________________________

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” churchill

the first rule of fluff club is that you don't talk about fluff club!

(in reply to colouredin)

Post #: 11

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 8:19:12 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Differance between punishment and play, so many seem confused by it

Absolutely. I've Owned metalmiss for about 7 months now... the early stages are when you'd expect more mistakes to happen as she learns exactly where those lines are, builds confidence and trust in the relationship etc.... in that 7 months I have punished her TWICE, not something either of Us found enjoyable... I don't like being disapointed. Play however, We rarely go a few days without some form of physical play, whenever I happen to be in the mood... and for no other reason or excuse than.. that I am in the mood!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to colouredin)

Post #: 12

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 8:22:23 AM

colouredin

Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline

*nods* and yet many people seem to think to get physical play they have to play up, bit like having to spike your husband with viagra whenever you want a shag seems a bit round the houses when you could just ask

_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 13

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 8:41:35 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Nope.

There is a fear amongst some that doms will get bored and lazy if they do not have some challenge or spirit from a sub- and the reality is that a fair amount actually do.

But that's what compatibility is all about. I see nothing lacking in spirit when there is full obedience and service. I do NOT like someone who wants to be a passive dishrag all the time and can't make choices and be responsible- but that's why I choose someone compatible and I order them not to be like that :)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_956403/mpage_3/key_chase/tm.htm#958051
The deliciousness of the chase

http://www.collarchat.com/m_841749/mpage_1/key_chase/tm.htm#841761
dominas need pursuit?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_102787/mpage_1/key_challenge/tm.htm#102787
What happens when you reach the destination?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_281193/mpage_1/key_challenge/tm.htm#281193
Does total submission make a master lose interest?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_561643/mpage_1/key_bored/tm.htm#561662
too compliant

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to BurntRose)

Post #: 14

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 12:23:05 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

No -

But, I have been in a situation where the submissive acts as though they cannot make a decision despite the fact that they have provided ample evidence they can and do - and, they behave this way because they THINK it is how a submissive MUST/SHOULD behave.

So - no... they have never been "too submissive" - but, Yes - they have behaved like idiots because they somehow believe it is "what is expected".

How silly is that?

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntRose

OK, this comes from me thinking about something i wrote on the subs taking responsibilty for their submission thread in the general discussions board.

Have any of you ever been in a situation where your relationship became unfulfilling because of a sub being TOO submissive, for example doing whatever you asked without question and never challenging your will? does the pleasure of being Dominant come from your knowledge of the other persons submission, or from the act of making them submit, or from a mix of both?

Apologies if this has been discussed to death! I'm pretty new to the boards here.

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to BurntRose)

Post #: 15

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 12:59:31 PM

Daes

Posts: 246
Joined: 4/20/2007
From: Diamond Bar, SoCal
Status: offline

Eh.

My Sir likes his girls to be /good/, and I'd much rather Not incur his ire. He's a sadist in addition to being dominant - that clarification is important to me - and I am not a true masochist. I don't enjoy pain. I take pain because it is something he enjoys and part of my service to him (and what makes me happy) is Giving him that part of me. I try to be good.

I don't have to struggle with Him, if he wants to beat me, he shall do so. If he wants to fuck me at 5am, I'll wake up to having him in me. I won't deny him and that in itself makes U/us happy. I can whine and he correct me, I could resist and he will break down those walls then ravage me til dawn or cane me until I scream with tears.

One day he will punish me, truly punish me, and I will cry at his disappointment in me. When he Play (not punish), he hurts me and Can hurt me til I cry in pain - but he will never damage me. After we play I can smile and cuddle with Him, enjoy the moments respite and the aftermath of his affections. But, if he punishes me it will be Not be enjoyable.

It's really about what finding what works for you. Our dynamic is perfect as it is. He has a need for complete control, I can willingly give it and I do not consider myself a doormat.

I've always seen it a tad offensive to call a sub a doormat if you do not truly Know her. Just because she has a deep rooted need to submit does not make her a doormat, not some piece of meat you can throw out when you wish. She is still a person with thoughts and dreams and goals. No need to insult another for that which she wants to be even if it does not suit your own desires. And it doesn't say much about the person who does so.

A sub confused as to How one Should Behave is another matter, and this should be corrected immediately. This does not make her a doormat, simply confused or misguided. This kind of behavior is adopted from online communities and it does not fit well in the real world. I suggest training the sub out of this behavior Either as a mentor or as the sub's dom then kept or released based upon both partners.

/I/ consider a doormat to be a person that serves another like a slave (not the good kind), with no passion to do so, no enjoyment or fullfillment from their service, only disengaged unthinking behavior associated with one having been "broken" due to conditioning to the point of abuse. Service because of instilled 'duty' rather than desire.

Being a slave or a sub, however great the need to give/submit may be, does Not make one a doormat.

My opinion.

< Message edited by Daes -- 6/27/2008 1:19:43 PM >

_____________________________

~*Estrellita*~
I want to be in surrender of His strength, of His power. Alone, I am nothing, but in His arms I am all things...

~His puppy~

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 16

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 1:47:55 PM

unclaimedsub38

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

A sub confused as to How one Should Behave is another matter, and this should be corrected immediately. This does not make her a doormat, simply confused or misguided. This kind of behavior is adopted from online communities and it does not fit well in the real world. I suggest training the sub out of this behavior Either as a mentor or as the sub's dom then kept or released based upon both partners.

/I/ consider a doormat to be a person that serves another like a slave (not the good kind), with no passion to do so, no enjoyment or fullfillment from their service, only disengaged unthinking behavior associated with one having been "broken" due to conditioning to the point of abuse. Service because of instilled 'duty' rather than desire.

Being a slave or a sub, however great the need to give/submit may be, does Not make one a doormat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

Thank you Daes... wonderful words of wisdom.... " now can you tell that to all the Doms..... giggles*,

Eh.

My Sir likes his girls to be /good/, and I'd much rather Not incur his ire. He's a sadist in addition to being dominant - that clarification is important to me - and I am not a true masochist. I don't enjoy pain. I take pain because it is something he enjoys and part of my service to him (and what makes me happy) is Giving him that part of me. I try to be good.

I don't have to struggle with Him, if he wants to beat me, he shall do so. If he wants to fuck me at 5am, I'll wake up to having him in me. I won't deny him and that in itself makes U/us happy. I can whine and he correct me, I could resist and he will break down those walls then ravage me til dawn or cane me until I scream with tears.

One day he will punish me, truly punish me, and I will cry at his disappointment in me. When he Play (not punish), he hurts me and Can hurt me til I cry in pain - but he will never damage me. After we play I can smile and cuddle with Him, enjoy the moments respite and the aftermath of his affections. But, if he punishes me it will be Not be enjoyable.

It's really about what finding what works for you. Our dynamic is perfect as it is. He has a need for complete control, I can willingly give it and I do not consider myself a doormat.

I've always seen it a tad offensive to call a sub a doormat if you do not truly Know her. Just because she has a deep rooted need to submit does not make her a doormat, not some piece of meat you can throw out when you wish. She is still a person with thoughts and dreams and goals. No need to insult another for that which she wants to be even if it does not suit your own desires. And it doesn't say much about the person who does so.

A sub confused as to How one Should Behave is another matter, and this should be corrected immediately. This does not make her a doormat, simply confused or misguided. This kind of behavior is adopted from online communities and it does not fit well in the real world. I suggest training the sub out of this behavior Either as a mentor or as the sub's dom then kept or released based upon both partners.

/I/ consider a doormat to be a person that serves another like a slave (not the good kind), with no passion to do so, no enjoyment or fullfillment from their service, only disengaged unthinking behavior associated with one having been "broken" due to conditioning to the point of abuse. Service because of instilled 'duty' rather than desire.

Being a slave or a sub, however great the need to give/submit may be, does Not make one a doormat.

My opinion.

(in reply to Daes)

Post #: 17

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 2:03:46 PM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

Someone has to show potential to be a useful and inspiring part of my life to be worth what it takes to Dominate and control. And it *IS* WORK-and I expect happy reciprocation.

If they are seeking it because they are dysfunctional-I will not respect them.

If they are doing it seeking to fullfill a fantasy...I will think that are mentally *unstable*-and to be avoided.

If they do it from a sense of seeking fullfillment of thier CORE nature-and have the tools and attitudes to work through the trials it always takes to get to the place of equilibrium-my utmost admiration.

No one pleases Dominants like myself by evasion and stereotype.

They do it by walking the walk.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 6/27/2008 2:06:35 PM >

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to BurntRose)

Post #: 18

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 3:21:28 PM

lally3

Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline

- a submissive is programmed to please, this means, she/he will do whatever it takes to be there for you - if that gets boring then possibly there is a lack of creativity/imagination or appreciation coming from the other half of the relationship.

all and any relationship can suffer from complacency, but i would argue the case that a submissive can get too submissive - a submissive is required to be obedient, of service and sensitive to their Masters requirements and needs, if their Master needs some spice thrown in then it is perfectly within their remit to do so.

to put the onus on the submissive partner for creating a boring dynamic when all that they are doing is what is expected of them suggests complacent dominance to be honest. i mean, come on - you have someone there who will fill your darkest and deepest fantasies and its boring?????!!!!!

what about something new on the menu, push a couple of limits somewhere, challenge their comfort zones a little - might be the subs getting bored too.

(in reply to unclaimedsub38)

Post #: 19

RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 6:20:40 PM

submittous

Posts: 345
Joined: 6/12/2004
Status: offline

Another no... obedience and submission are not the same and we have never had too much of either. The idea that a slave has to misbehave for a M/s relationship to have discipline or SM exploration seems silly to us. Nothing boring to us about a compliant slave.

Bill and Linda

_____________________________

"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving

(in reply to lally3)

Post #: 20

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