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RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 6:32:54 PM   
MissMagnolia


Posts: 3636
Status: offline 		I personally like having a sub I've trained so well that I don't need to be telling him what to do all the time. I loath "brattiness", because I see it as disrespectful to me and an attempt at topping from the bottom. I don't want anyone who needs to be pulled into line all the time. If I wanted to babysit anyone and make them behave, I'd take it up and get paid for it (and eat whatever I want from the fridge, but don't have boys over, etc.).

Then again, I am not a sadist and don't have a sub who needs to be beaten, or even wants that. Control isn't about physical punishment.

_____________________________

if at first you dont succeed..then skydiving isnt for you

Resident Whip Cracker AND Resident Orbs Of Joy.


(in reply to submittous)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 6:36:25 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		It is rather nice to be a partner in an *adult* relationship.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to MissMagnolia)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: subs need for control - 6/27/2008 7:09:27 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		That was beautiful. Thank you for posting. :)

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to crouchingtigress)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: subs need for control - 6/28/2008 4:10:29 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
This is good because, when she disobeys, it provides me the opportunity to assert my disciplinary skills and spank my slave. All this time I had it wrong; spanking and doing pretty much whatever I wanted just because I enjoyed it and/or felt like doing it.


Yep, confuses the feck outta Me too that apparently I need an excuse to beat her arse and that "because I want to" isn't enough Nah feck it, I am secure enough in My self, My relationship and My control that I don't need to fabricate some lame damn excuse.

Can't say I see it as being good for the girl either, being set-up to fail just because someone lacks the confidence to pick up a cane unless they have a 'reason' to... even if the 'reason' is fabricated bullcrud and she hasn't actualy done anything wrong! Or if she has done something wrong in order to invoke a spanking or whatever, isn't she controling the timing? isn't it 'rewarding bad behaviour'?

Lol, yet your indignation here does make you sound insecure....
 
Try this....
 
When I decide to truss the girl up for a few hours or stripe her butt or whatever, I do it BECAUSE I WANT TO.  Such are the perks of ownership, and I'm sure you agree, yes....?
The thing is that NONE of that has anything to do with disciplining her.  She didn't disrespect; she didn't speak out of turn or (gasp) be a brat blah blah....  What she did do was accommodate MY needs and NO-ONE fabricated any "lame excuse".
 
But for me, that's not enough....  So I guess by your standard, I'm insecure because I also enjoy the occasional opportunity to correct something I disapprove of.  For me, grasping a pinch of pubic fur and hauling her up on her toes so I can get right in her face and suggest she adjust her attitude a tad doesn't exactly constitute play, either, but I live for those microscopic moments to assert my authority nonetheless.... 
 
The trick is knowing how much is too much, because I still don't appreciate incorrigible brats that might be tempted to (gasp again) top from the bottom, either.  Then there's still a matter of semantics and general misunderstanding in these threads because it seems everyone has a different definition of what actually constitutes punishment, discipline and plain ole D/s type play....
 
To me, it's *simple*....
 
Play is where I decide to do anything my ownership rights entitle me to do to her = enjoyment.
 
Discipline is where I correct something inappropriate from her = enjoyment.
 
Punishment is where her actions have greatly disappointed me and I don't want her anywhere near me while I'm angry.  And I'm sure as hell not gunna smack her butt or do anything remotely enjoyable or that can be construed as me still giving her attention.  She gets corner time while I'm cooling off = misery.
 
Fortunately, the latter is the least common and least desired course of action.
 
And still no-one fabricated a thing....
 
Focus. 

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: subs need for control - 6/28/2008 6:00:06 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		TSK Focus... you trying to 'fabricate' insecurity in Me to make You feel better. Nice try but no cigar 

I would question why You appear to have a need to 'prove Yourself' by HAVING to have opportunitys to enforce discipline rather than simply effectivly maintaining it.

When a breach of discipline is being addressed it is something neither Me nor My girl 'enjoys'... do You enjoy being disapointed? I don't and she certainly doesn't like the feeling of having done so. If it happens the cause is sought, remidies put in place to avoid it happening again, a physical 'punishment' maybe used if I deam it appropriate to help it be put behind us (otherwise a girl does tend to continue mentaly berating herself for the lapse... a cathartic event can help avoid that. IF punishment is warranted it is MY province and responcibility NOT hers!) and then it is done with, her behaviour and actions in that area are expected to improve, kept an eye on to ensure they improve and don't lead to another disapointment.

Discipline is ongoing, something built and maintained, keeping her inside acceptable peramiters... there is enjoyment, even pride from having such a good girl, such a disciplined girl

If you Own a car and it doesn't break down are You going to throw sugar in the petrol tank and make it break down just to give Yourself the 'enjoyment' of prooving You can fix it? I prefer a car that doesn't break down, if it does then I fix it, but I know I can and have nothing to prove by constructing an excuse to prove it.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: subs need for control - 6/28/2008 7:43:30 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

does the pleasure of being Dominant come from your knowledge of the other persons submission, or from the act of making them submit, or from a mix of both?

One does not "make" someone submit.  "Making them submit" is either roleplay/scening or assault/rape.  There's no third option.

The delight is in knowing my slave is moved to choose to surrender herself of her own volition.

Surrender is a choice.  If it is not a choice, it is not surrender.


_____________________________



(in reply to BurntRose)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: subs need for control - 6/28/2008 7:51:46 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

But for me, that's not enough....  So I guess by your standard, I'm insecure because I also enjoy the occasional opportunity to correct something I disapprove of.  For me, grasping a pinch of pubic fur and hauling her up on her toes so I can get right in her face and suggest she adjust her attitude a tad doesn't exactly constitute play, either, but I live for those microscopic moments to assert my authority nonetheless....  
 
The trick is knowing how much is too much, because I still don't appreciate incorrigible brats that might be tempted to (gasp again) top from the bottom, either.  Then there's still a matter of semantics and general misunderstanding in these threads because it seems everyone has a different definition of what actually constitutes punishment, discipline and plain ole D/s type play....

Focus,
Whether you are secure in insecure is for you and your partners to determine.

"Trick"ing isn't involved in my relationship. I don't set up my slave or any submissive to fail. I don't need any pretense of failure on their part to initiate a response or activity from me.

You "enjoy the occasional opportunity" of correcting something you disapprove. How many of these opportunities are too many? How does you slave/sub know when they've exceed that indeterminate limit? How is it possible to distinguish this play discipline from the need for correction? 

Based upon your post your submissive needs to be acutely aware of the distinction between "disappointing you" and "greatly disappointing" you. A target and expectation subject to outside influences that life brings you every day. Determining the degree of disappointment among a infinite variety of outside factors describes perfectly the scenario of setting up for failure.
quote:

To me, it's *simple*.... 
Me too. For discipline to be effective it needs to be consistent. The need to punish indicates failure not only on the slave/sub but for the Master/Dom. In that context I don't enjoy inflicting punishment any more than the sub having the punishment inflicted.

That isn't semantics it is consistency. Something or someone fails enough I get rid of it. I don't have the time nor the inclination to be involved with anything that requires regular maintenance. My dynamic works because it doesn't take work. It doesn't require analysis. It doesn't take discovery to determine if the activity of my slave is for attention or something indicating a more serious problem.

Have fun! I'm not involved. I don't want to be in a situation where discipline is a cornerstone of my dynamic. I don't want to have a need to ascertain if this time is "good discipline" and the same thing, in another context, under a different emotional day, under these conditions; the same thing is "bad discipline". I'd hate to scramble the brains of another human in order her/him to be required to be in sync with me and my thoughts/emotions in order to make that dynamic work.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 6/28/2008 8:00:26 AM >

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: subs need for control - 6/28/2008 9:46:47 AM   
BurntRose


Posts: 6
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

does the pleasure of being Dominant come from your knowledge of the other persons submission, or from the act of making them submit, or from a mix of both?

One does not "make" someone submit.  "Making them submit" is either roleplay/scening or assault/rape.  There's no third option.

The delight is in knowing my slave is moved to choose to surrender herself of her own volition.

Surrender is a choice.  If it is not a choice, it is not surrender.



maybe a better way to put it would be to say 'the act of asserting your Dominance' then, I didnt mean it to come across as force.

im really enjoying the responses here, thank you all.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: subs need for control - 6/28/2008 12:27:05 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

.....the act of making them submit.....

BurntRose


What sort of an act, BurntRose?  Like 'force play'?
 
How would a Dom 'force' a woman to submit against her will?
 
candystripper

(in reply to BurntRose)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: subs need for control - 6/28/2008 12:37:31 PM   
yuyu777


Posts: 30
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		I guess your satisfaction comes from your ability of making them submit, so when they submit to you unconditionally, there is no place for your control or dominance. thats why you feel unfulfilled.


(in reply to BurntRose)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: subs need for control - 6/28/2008 4:03:15 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

TSK Focus... you trying to 'fabricate' insecurity in Me to make You feel better. Nice try but no cigar 

Damn...!  ;-)

quote:

I would question why You appear to have a need to 'prove Yourself' by HAVING to have opportunitys to enforce discipline rather than simply effectivly maintaining it.

When a breach of discipline is being addressed it is something neither Me nor My girl 'enjoys'... do You enjoy being disapointed? I don't and she certainly doesn't like the feeling of having done so. If it happens the cause is sought, remidies put in place to avoid it happening again, a physical 'punishment' maybe used if I deam it appropriate to help it be put behind us (otherwise a girl does tend to continue mentaly berating herself for the lapse... a cathartic event can help avoid that. IF punishment is warranted it is MY province and responcibility NOT hers!) and then it is done with, her behaviour and actions in that area are expected to improve, kept an eye on to ensure they improve and don't lead to another disapointment.

Errrm, prove what?  I guess I haven't been lucky(?) enough to meet such perfect and infallible submissives that you're advocating by default here....
 
But then you say, "If it happens the cause is sought, remidies put in place to avoid it happening again"...?  Mate, sounds exactly what I already said - you know, what you're disagreeing with!  lol  Is not my disciplining my girl your "remedy put in place" with yours?  <sheesh>  And this "remedy" - that's not then "proving yourself" by your own definition?

quote:

Discipline is ongoing, something built and maintained, keeping her inside acceptable peramiters... there is enjoyment, even pride from having such a good girl, such a disciplined girl

Yep, that's what I said - your pride is my enjoyment...!  lol

quote:

If you Own a car and it doesn't break down are You going to throw sugar in the petrol tank and make it break down just to give Yourself the 'enjoyment' of prooving You can fix it? I prefer a car that doesn't break down, if it does then I fix it, but I know I can and have nothing to prove by constructing an excuse to prove it.

Looks like we have different definitions of what "fabrication" is!  That or you're still agreeing with me....  <shrug>
 
Focus. 

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: subs need for control - 6/28/2008 4:42:47 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

But for me, that's not enough....  So I guess by your standard, I'm insecure because I also enjoy the occasional opportunity to correct something I disapprove of.  For me, grasping a pinch of pubic fur and hauling her up on her toes so I can get right in her face and suggest she adjust her attitude a tad doesn't exactly constitute play, either, but I live for those microscopic moments to assert my authority nonetheless....  
 
The trick is knowing how much is too much, because I still don't appreciate incorrigible brats that might be tempted to (gasp again) top from the bottom, either.  Then there's still a matter of semantics and general misunderstanding in these threads because it seems everyone has a different definition of what actually constitutes punishment, discipline and plain ole D/s type play....

Focus,
Whether you are secure in insecure is for you and your partners to determine.

Actually, it's nothing more than a little by-play I enjoy with Raven - as does he, I'd reckon...

quote:

"Trick"ing isn't involved in my relationship.

Neither's expressing yourself colloquially, apparently....  That'd be your issue, not mine, as I'm just not wound so tight as to infer things so literally.

quote:

I don't set up my slave or any submissive to fail. I don't need any pretense of failure on their part to initiate a response or activity from me.

And for some obscure reason, you've rationalised that I do?  Looks like the Oz definition of "fabrication" is different on a global scale....

quote:

You "enjoy the occasional opportunity" of correcting something you disapprove. How many of these opportunities are too many? How does you slave/sub know when they've exceed that indeterminate limit?

There's a standard number or are you asking rhetorically?  See, if my slave "knew", then that'd imply (or infer) pretense and fabrication, no?

quote:

Based upon your post your submissive needs to be acutely aware of the distinction between "disappointing you" and "greatly disappointing" you. A target and expectation subject to outside influences that life brings you every day. Determining the degree of disappointment among a infinite variety of outside factors describes perfectly the scenario of setting up for failure.

Yikes, way to dissect a fly with a sledgehammer....  lol

quote:

quote:

To me, it's *simple*.... 
Me too. For discipline to be effective it needs to be consistent. The need to punish indicates failure not only on the slave/sub but for the Master/Dom. In that context I don't enjoy inflicting punishment any more than the sub having the punishment inflicted.

I described a need to punish as equalling misery.  So your point here is...?

quote:

That isn't semantics it is consistency. Something or someone fails enough I get rid of it. I don't have the time nor the inclination to be involved with anything that requires regular maintenance. My dynamic works because it doesn't take work. It doesn't require analysis. It doesn't take discovery to determine if the activity of my slave is for attention or something indicating a more serious problem.

Looks like what I'd tolerate is different to what you would.  Sooooo, I must be the one doing it "wrong", eh?

quote:

Have fun! I'm not involved. I don't want to be in a situation where discipline is a cornerstone of my dynamic. I don't want to have a need to ascertain if this time is "good discipline" and the same thing, in another context, under a different emotional day, under these conditions; the same thing is "bad discipline". I'd hate to scramble the brains of another human in order her/him to be required to be in sync with me and my thoughts/emotions in order to make that dynamic work.

Geeez Merc, pour yourself a stiff one or whatever it takes to relieve the stress 'cause I'm sure as hell never gunna apologise for being the laid back, down to earth, non anal retentive individual *I* am.
 
Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: subs need for control - 6/29/2008 6:53:37 AM   
aftershox


Posts: 10
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

One does not "make" someone submit. "Making them submit" is either roleplay/scening or assault/rape. There's no third option.


I am a sub of less than 2 years, so perhaps it will be considered audatious for me to disagree with this statement.

I am a very strong willed woman who can be down right bratty and has strong tendencies to top from the bottom.

Not every man can "make" me submit.  I can go thru the motions of submitting, but that is not true submission.

I could be forced and humiliated to all sorts of extremes, and perhaps I over-estimate my strength of character, but I would like to think I could endure damn near anything and not submit if I put my mind to it. I have no interest in actually doing this because it simply would not be fun.

My Master has a way of making me submit that feels to me to be "true" submisson.. I think it has to do with his resolve, his decisiveness, his ability to understand me and see right thru any antics I might be trying to pull , many things I am unaware of.

His situation is such that I can;t see him as often as I like, so I am permitted to play with others. I find that with most playmates I am simply going thru the motions, and frankly the brat starts to come out again as well as the tendency to top from the bottom. I feel like I am being somehow unfair to them, but I am what I am.

It feels wonderful when I am truly submissive. But now I find it just isn;t as much fun just going thru the motions. Does this make sense to anyone else?







(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: subs need for control - 6/30/2008 11:58:33 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

"Trick"ing isn't involved in my relationship.
quote:


Neither's expressing yourself colloquially, apparently....  That'd be your issue, not mine, as I'm just not wound so tight as to infer things so literally.

My mistake of taking what you say "literally" or on face value as stated. Another nuance of yours requiting not only a "Focus Dictionary", but I'd dare say, an observable 'mood-ring'? 
quote:

You "enjoy the occasional opportunity" of correcting something you disapprove. How many of these opportunities are too many? How does you slave/sub know when they've exceed that indeterminate limit?
quote:

There's a standard number or are you asking rhetorically?  See, if my slave "knew", then that'd imply (or infer) pretense and fabrication, no?

You must have something in mind. How many times does it take for something to evolve from "disappointing" to "greatly disappointing"? Is it specified by number or situation? In other words if you tell her to get up and get you a drink in public and she tells you to go fuck yourself is that mild; and when you are in private its "greatly"? This is, or at least was, your representation and distinguishing characteristic of your desired dynamic. I'm here to learn.
quote:

Based upon your post your submissive needs to be acutely aware of the distinction between "disappointing you" and "greatly disappointing" you. A target and expectation subject to outside influences that life brings you every day. Determining the degree of disappointment among a infinite variety of outside factors describes perfectly the scenario of setting up for failure.
quote:

Yikes, way to dissect a fly with a sledgehammer....  lol
Happy to have make your laugh - the lack of any meaningful response was expected. Remember, your levels of disappointment are how you represent yourself. You used the distinguishing modifier "greatly". If it makes you laugh to explain it...well, what else is there to say?

quote:

quote:

To me, it's *simple*.... 
Me too. For discipline to be effective it needs to be consistent. The need to punish indicates failure not only on the slave/sub but for the Master/Dom. In that context I don't enjoy inflicting punishment any more than the sub having the punishment inflicted.
quote:

I described a need to punish as equalling misery.  So your point here is...?
The point is you use the same occurrence as "play"; or at least your words represented as much giving "levels" of obedience and disobedience which can occur from the exact same situation. What is your point?

quote:

quote:

That isn't semantics it is consistency. Something or someone fails enough I get rid of it. I don't have the time nor the inclination to be involved with anything that requires regular maintenance. My dynamic works because it doesn't take work. It doesn't require analysis. It doesn't take discovery to determine if the activity of my slave is for attention or something indicating a more serious problem.

Looks like what I'd tolerate is different to what you would.  Sooooo, I must be the one doing it "wrong", eh?

And what can I say; if that is easier than trying to explain it - I guess that will have to suffice.

quote:

Geeez Merc, pour yourself a stiff one or whatever it takes to relieve the stress 'cause I'm sure as hell never gunna apologise for being the laid back, down to earth, non anal retentive individual *I* am.
Being "anal retentive" has produced too much success in my life to consider it an insult; therefore I'll thank you for the compliment. Not being subject to having to deal with any mind meld dynamic - there's no stress and no need for any relief. I only wish the same for you. 

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: subs need for control - 6/30/2008 2:10:42 PM   
MasterDragon1963


Posts: 51
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		For the most part I would say that my slave is a "good girl", and she has been well trained. Rules are obeyed, and instructions are followed. Her position and desire to please and bring pleasure fullfilled. But I would not call her a mindless doormat. I have better things to do than to sit around waiting for her mistake, so that some kind of deviation from the norm can occure. I dont need her difference of opinion to initiate a mind stimulating thought provoking conversation. In some ways we are the complete opposite of each other, yet we find great meaning, discussion, and respect for each others indifferences.

Can some one find pleasure in the simple servitude of a deticated "no frills" sub? I am certain theres is, not all Doms are peacock struting sadists in search for the half perfect sub and half sam. Just as Doms come in many forms, so do their slaves. I enjoy the lil sassy frolicks of a happy slave, just as much as the rest, but a slave shouldnt have to bend a rule or test Masters attention to get the ball rolling in any desirable direction.

Master Dragon

_____________________________

It is not enough to walk thru the fire, but to embrace it, the flesh may be burned, but the pureness of the spirit shall endure forever.

(in reply to BurntRose)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: subs need for control - 7/1/2008 5:31:58 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

"Trick"ing isn't involved in my relationship.
quote:


Neither's expressing yourself colloquially, apparently....  That'd be your issue, not mine, as I'm just not wound so tight as to infer things so literally.

My mistake of taking what you say "literally" or on face value as stated. Another nuance of yours requiting not only a "Focus Dictionary", but I'd dare say, an observable 'mood-ring'?

No, it's your mistake for presuming I was addressing you when in fact I was talking to Raven - someone who actually knows my 'mood-ring'!  And News Flash - ya don't need any "Focus Dictionary" to know what a colloquialism is or when friendly antagonists just might be taking a few liberties with the language (and each other).  Good of you to invite yourself in, btw....

You really need to take your head out of your own pompous arse for biting at such an obvious "bait" word like 'trick' on a BDSM site - surely the great (and successful) Merc has been around too long to make such rookie mistakes, no?  I s'pose I should make allowances for your not picking up on my use of 'real' from the same post, eh?

quote:

quote:

You "enjoy the occasional opportunity" of correcting something you disapprove. How many of these opportunities are too many? How does you slave/sub know when they've exceed that indeterminate limit?
quote:

There's a standard number or are you asking rhetorically?  See, if my slave "knew", then that'd imply (or infer) pretense and fabrication, no?

You must have something in mind. How many times does it take for something to evolve from "disappointing" to "greatly disappointing"? Is it specified by number or situation? In other words if you tell her to get up and get you a drink in public and she tells you to go fuck yourself is that mild; and when you are in private its "greatly"? This is, or at least was, your representation and distinguishing characteristic of your desired dynamic. I'm here to learn.

No, you came to judge and preach and now your big mouth has backed yourself into a corner of "Frasier"esque proportions.  This bone (of numbers and general word play) you won't let go of has nothing of substance or valid foundation and your entire reply is little more than indignant sophistry to try and save face.  I'm here to enjoy....  ;-)

quote:

quote:

Based upon your post your submissive needs to be acutely aware of the distinction between "disappointing you" and "greatly disappointing" you. A target and expectation subject to outside influences that life brings you every day. Determining the degree of disappointment among a infinite variety of outside factors describes perfectly the scenario of setting up for failure.
quote:

Yikes, way to dissect a fly with a sledgehammer....  lol
Happy to have make your laugh - the lack of any meaningful response was expected. Remember, your levels of disappointment are how you represent yourself. You used the distinguishing modifier "greatly". If it makes you laugh to explain it...well, what else is there to say?

Ditto to the previous - you've got nothing but empty puffery and the arrogance to believe you know me so there can be no "meaningful response".  Why wouldn't anyone laugh?
 
quote:

quote:

quote:

To me, it's *simple*.... 
Me too. For discipline to be effective it needs to be consistent. The need to punish indicates failure not only on the slave/sub but for the Master/Dom. In that context I don't enjoy inflicting punishment any more than the sub having the punishment inflicted.
quote:

I described a need to punish as equalling misery.  So your point here is...?
The point is you use the same occurrence as "play"; or at least your words represented as much giving "levels" of obedience and disobedience which can occur from the exact same situation. What is your point?

I made my point to Raven - describing different dynamics and mindsets etc.  I don't enjoy punishment; you ran with it and said you don't enjoy punishment.  I assumed you were trying to make a point - perhaps I've mistaken that for agreeance...?  Mate, if you're just fucking with the language, I'll stipulate to you being a clever fella (far more so than myself) if you spare us the tediousness of it all, k?

quote:

quote:

quote:

That isn't semantics it is consistency. Something or someone fails enough I get rid of it. I don't have the time nor the inclination to be involved with anything that requires regular maintenance. My dynamic works because it doesn't take work. It doesn't require analysis. It doesn't take discovery to determine if the activity of my slave is for attention or something indicating a more serious problem.

Looks like what I'd tolerate is different to what you would.  Sooooo, I must be the one doing it "wrong", eh?

And what can I say; if that is easier than trying to explain it - I guess that will have to suffice.

Explain what?  Your delusions that my relationships are high maintenance; that my dynamics are fractured or disjointed compared to yours or that you're apparently the only one who knows the difference between a sub acting out through personal crises vs overt manipulation?  It's all in your mind; *you* explain it as I make no prestense of knowing who you are or the life you lead.

quote:

quote:

Geeez Merc, pour yourself a stiff one or whatever it takes to relieve the stress 'cause I'm sure as hell never gunna apologise for being the laid back, down to earth, non anal retentive individual *I* am.
Being "anal retentive" has produced too much success in my life to consider it an insult; therefore I'll thank you for the compliment. Not being subject to having to deal with any mind meld dynamic - there's no stress and no need for any relief. I only wish the same for you. 

Merc, I think you're an intelligent and knowledgeable fella who I once respected before you demonstrated how petty and immature you can be with it.  Save your thanks;  you might be clever enough not to be insulted by my very reasonable remark (given the circumstances) but it's mighty dumb to conclude my intention was complimentary.
 
And you tell a lie - the majority of the assumptions and assertions you made in your original reply could only have come through some mind meld; surely no-one could be so utterly full of themselves otherwise, not even the Crane brothers?
 
Focus.

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Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: subs need for control - 7/1/2008 6:48:42 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Focus,

Tell me, does attacking the questioner serve in your circle the same as answering them? You can really get away with that?

It is truly a shame you can't back up you position with substance in your answers. I asked questions, you call them pompous. If there was any 'bait' it was contained in your words representing a sometime is punishment, sometimes its not philosophy. I'm sure in actuality, if you've ever experienced anything outside cyber-world, it is just as confusing to the sub as it is to me, and apparently you. Since obviously you are just confused, I understand.

Having your respect is important? I replied to an open forum. I challenge you to provide any example of mine representing only one true way. You have yours - good for you. I honestly wondered how they hell that could work; sometimes its play other times serious punishment? I still wonder how it works. Maybe if you knew you'd say so and not quote the exchange just to attempt insult and quote Frasier reruns. BTW - I never watched it; try Seinfeld if you need me to relate to a situation comedy reference.

Next time if you are having a personal conversation in it, go to private chat, where you'll have your private answers. If not - expect comment and questions regarding your inconsistencies. Not that it matters, but if there is anyone whose words served to back into a corner it would be you. Sometimes fun brat-play; others strict punishment regarding the same or similar act. I sincerely wanted to know how you kept track of that; better yet, how does any partner? That's it. Stipulating to all the insults, pomposity, empty puffery, arrogance, and Frasier references; how does that work?

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: subs need for control - 7/1/2008 7:45:13 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

She was my definition of a doormat; passive and compliant to the 'enth' degree.  Exactly how does one assert one's dominance and authority when there is no reluctance, attitude, challenge and occasional brattiness and defiance etc?  Answer is that you don't; you're reduced to passive dominance, which is about as fulfilling as commanding a trained but mindless puppy dog.



ummm ... well ... what is the point of all the "discipline" if it isn't to like ... get to a place where she is trained and follows your instructions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


But for me, that's not enough....  So I guess by your standard, I'm insecure because I also enjoy the occasional opportunity to correct something I disapprove of.  For me, grasping a pinch of pubic fur and hauling her up on her toes so I can get right in her face and suggest she adjust her attitude a tad doesn't exactly constitute play, either, but I live for those microscopic moments to assert my authority nonetheless....  
 


here you say you are looking to correct behaviour ... now this was because, even in some tiny way, she was wrong yes? ... If there is a wrong .. then surely there is a right way to behave yes? .. that follows logic yes?

Well what happens when she is getting it right all the time? .... Is the D's part of the relationship dead? ...Is she no longer submissive? .... Are there no other ways to exert Dominance?

I would respctfully state that being an obediant submissive is very different from being a doormat. If you have set up your relationship so that the only way for her to be totally obedient to your requirements is for her to be passive and drone like ... then don't you need to perhaps examine how you the Dominant are setting up the relationship? .. perhaps find a way for her to be obedient, and proactive, submissive and spirited?



_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: subs need for control - 7/1/2008 7:45:46 AM   
Cuffkinks


Posts: 1780
Joined: 5/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntRose

OK, this comes from me thinking about something i wrote on the subs taking responsibilty for their submission thread in the general discussions board.

Have any of you ever been in a situation where your relationship became unfulfilling because of a sub being TOO submissive, for example doing whatever you asked without question and never challenging your will? does the pleasure of being Dominant come from your knowledge of the other persons submission, or from the act of making them submit, or from a mix of both?

Apologies if this has been discussed to death! I'm pretty new to the boards here.



  My girl is a very good girl. That's what I want, that's what I have. I couldn't be in a LTR with a brat. That for Me would be unfulfilling. Could I play with one? Certainly. Would I want to own one? Not a chance.
  My girl is by no means any type of "doormat." She's an intelligent woman with her own mind, her own views and opinions. I encourage her to express herself.  However, she does what she is told to do. Without question, without hesitation. This is what pleases Me and that in turn, pleases her. I don't have to "make her submit." I already own her. With that ownership comes her submission to Me.
  If I'm in the mood to play with her, use her, fuck her, hurt her, see her crawl, see her cry...whatever. I don't need any reason other than I want it. We've talked about some "resistance play." But it's just that...Play. Should the day come when I have to "make her submit," that's the day I start looking for a new sub.
(I don't see that day coming any time soon.)

_____________________________

Resident "11"

"I love you, Sir. You make my heart sing and my panties wet. What more could a girl ask for?" - hejira92

"And that's why it's good to be...Me." - Gene $immons

(in reply to BurntRose)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: subs need for control - 7/1/2008 11:29:42 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		~ Fast Reply ~

About 2 years ago I asked my Master if, once fully trained, he would become bored with me.  He asked, "Why would I be bored with having exactly what I want and worked so hard to develop??"

He is enjoying the fruits of our labor now.  And you know, we never stop learning and growing. He enjoys guiding me along the path of my life.  He does not enjoy punishing me and being disappointed in me.  He tells me he feels good, knowing at any time of any day, I am exactly "in place" and at the ready for him, without issues.  He loves knowing he can count on me, rather than wonder if I'll need additional attention to correct where my mind might be.  He said he thinks of me and feels good inside, and proud of what we have both accomplished.

I'd say that doesn't describe a man who is bored; it describes a man who is quite pleased.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to Cuffkinks)
Profile   Post #: 40
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