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RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 6/30/2008 3:09:34 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, I have no problems reclaiming the word "bitch." And I can tell you that according to my perceptions of myself, I am simply a woman - with abilities, weaknesses and a whole bunch of other stuff in between. But according to some other people, I am.. well.. a bitch.

Like the other day, when my students (all over 18, so I can talk about them) refused to turn off and give up their CDs when asked, and I had to take them all away until the end of the day (playing them is against school rules and they play rap music so loudly that even through headphones, I can hear all the words),  they said I was mean and cruel. When the tension eased up a bit and we all began laughing about the rule and about my need to enforce it, I said that the clue to compliance is to find other things that are worse and give people a choice. That was interpreted as a challenge to them. I just smiled sweetly and said "Just remember, I can torture you and no one will ever know...." They were stunned. No teacher had ever talked to them like that before. Their tempers were cooking up again. I just laughed and said "yes... if I hear CDs tomorrow, I'm going to come prepared. I'm bringing in a CD player of my own... along with some "choice" CDs... all country music - all OLD country music. Try me."

In that moment, in their minds, I crossed the line from cruel to bitch.

And they turned off their CDs and handed them to me very politely, saying that they wouldn't bring them anymore, just PLEASE don't bring in the country music." I said "that's up to you...get back to work - and please remember, at .99 cents a pop, I can downloard quite a bit of Merle Haggard, George Jones and Roy Clark, so we're not talking about any of this new stuff."

One girl didn't believe me and wanted to argue the point. I just looked at her and said "and for you, I'll bring something special - Minnie Pearle "HowwwDEEEE!!" (thank goodness for the years Hee Haw was on television.) I described her and the songs I'd heard from her to the girl. She listened all while holding her hands in front of her like doing that could ward off sound waves and saying "no no no... don't do that...you don't need to do that. I hear what you're saying..."

The next day, not one person brought in their own music.

Sometimes, being a bitch can be quite effective.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 6/30/2008 3:17:55 AM >

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 6/30/2008 3:41:05 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		The point I'm trying to make though is that "bitch" is often a perception of someone held by other people and has nothing to do with how the so-called "bitch" perceives herself.

"Bitch" is also pretty perjorative and mostly applied to females to keep them in their place or to punish them for stepping outside of what is commonly thought of as "their place." The most glaring example of this is Martha Stewart (regardless if you like her or not).


Jack Welch, who was the CEO at General Electric, was known for his temper, yet he was respected for his leadership and his ability to make money for his company.

Martha Stewart made money but was simply a bitch.

Male CEOs curse and insult their subordinates and people say they are motivating. Donald Trump tears down an employee and he's considered a great corporate leader.

Female CEOs do the same thing (like Martha) and she's considered a "bitch." with all to connotations of being "unwomanly" that that word conveys. She is somehow "unsuitable"

And this whole connotation of "bitch" is not unlike the word "slut" which many of us have chosen to also reclaim. A man goes out and fucks who he can when he can, however he can, and he's considered "experienced." A woman does the same thing and she's considered a "slut"... with all the negative connotations that implies. Yet, we've reclaimed that, saying that "slut" is just another word for not being afraid to pursue what we want. Or, as Bette Midler says, "slut is just another word for "POP-U-LAR".."

I think "bitch" is in that same category - a word used to keep women from stepping too far out of the little box people like to keep them in. I can be a strong woman. Someone else might perceive that as being a bitch. That perception would be on them, not me. So, I choose to reclaim that word.

I know how to be a bitch.

I also know when it's prudent to be one and when it's prudent not to be one.

And I really don't concern myself overmuch about the whole idea that "it's not nice to be called a bitch." In my head, it's also not nice to be taken advantage of. Nor is it nice to expect me to buy into the idea that the use of perjorative terms will somehow keep me in my place. And so, the word "bitch" really means nothing to me.

And I have absolutely no problem reconciling the concepts of "submissive" and "bitch" One has nothing to do with the other and I can be both when the situation warrants it.


juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 6/30/2008 3:58:50 AM >

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 6/30/2008 2:30:06 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

being as submissive as i am, there are only three times in my life when i have been forced to go against my passive nature.  three times where i have been forced to defend my very being all in self defense. whether it was physical the first two times or all mental and emotional the third time.  there are times when even the most passive are forced to confront the ugliness before them.  the latter case was the worst because i felt i lost all control of myself and that is something that i am not prone to do (i see that as a weakness). what else can one do when there is nobody to defend you or the ones you love, but yourself?  (Emphasis added.)

OTKkindaGirl


I'd like to know where on earth all you people are living?  On a  farm?  In a bubble?  Are you just very young?
 
The fact is, no matter what stratum of society you think you belong to, you are not safe from street crime -- or worse.  There is no awareness of one's surroundings?  No selectivity about where/when one goes?
 
When I lived in Florida, there was a rash of attacks on women in the parking lots of the malls.  Some were very serious.  Then there were actual riots in the malls.  Both of them -- the upscale one as well as the more modestly priced one.
 
The same thing happens here. I don't watch the local news because it upsets me.  It's all crime and bad weather.
 
I am not limiting the occasions in which 'drawing on your inner bitch' to street crime.  Nutjobs can enter your life unnoticed for awhile, and can be difficult to remove.  Other sits are possible.
 
But I am mystified at this 'la-la-la'  attitude that 'crime isn't part of my life'.
 
candystripper

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 6/30/2008 5:57:31 PM   
pixidustpet


Posts: 857
Joined: 6/4/2008
Status: offline 		~~fast reply~~

i am quite capable of being mean, rude, ugly...in other words, a bitch.  but i no longer *choose* to be those things.

i chose to be more quiet and pleasing, and try to put across my ideas in words that are not loud and aggressive...but can easily be assertive in describing my needs/wants.  but this is me and no one else, i am accountable for my words/actions to my dominant.

at the same time i am encouraged to "take no prisoners" if those methods to get my viewpoint across doesnt work.

kitten

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 6/30/2008 10:15:18 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline
quote:


  * I might need it to safely handle a volitale situation; some people respond to a soft voice by acting out even more, but will retreat if 'confronted' by a strong woman.


Personally, I don't see what this has to do with being submissive, unless either the dominant is out of self control, or you're in a public (meaning not alone in the privacy of your own space) venue and some idiot gets out of hand..in which case the DMs should be handling it.

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polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
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(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 6/30/2008 10:16:36 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
I'd like to know where on earth all you people are living?  On a  farm?  In a bubble?  Are you just very young?
 
The fact is, no matter what stratum of society you think you belong to, you are not safe from street crime -- or worse.  There is no awareness of one's surroundings?  No selectivity about where/when one goes?
 
When I lived in Florida, there was a rash of attacks on women in the parking lots of the malls.  Some were very serious.  Then there were actual riots in the malls.  Both of them -- the upscale one as well as the more modestly priced one.
 
The same thing happens here. I don't watch the local news because it upsets me.  It's all crime and bad weather.
 
I am not limiting the occasions in which 'drawing on your inner bitch' to street crime.  Nutjobs can enter your life unnoticed for awhile, and can be difficult to remove.  Other sits are possible.
 
But I am mystified at this 'la-la-la'  attitude that 'crime isn't part of my life'.
 
candystripper


Once again.. WTF does all this have to do with being a submissive?

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polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 3:46:57 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
I'd like to know where on earth all you people are living?  On a  farm?  In a bubble?  Are you just very young?
 
The fact is, no matter what stratum of society you think you belong to, you are not safe from street crime -- or worse.  There is no awareness of one's surroundings?  No selectivity about where/when one goes?
 
When I lived in Florida, there was a rash of attacks on women in the parking lots of the malls.  Some were very serious.  Then there were actual riots in the malls.  Both of them -- the upscale one as well as the more modestly priced one.
 
The same thing happens here. I don't watch the local news because it upsets me.  It's all crime and bad weather.
 
I am not limiting the occasions in which 'drawing on your inner bitch' to street crime.  Nutjobs can enter your life unnoticed for awhile, and can be difficult to remove.  Other sits are possible.
 
But I am mystified at this 'la-la-la'  attitude that 'crime isn't part of my life'.
 
candystripper


Once again.. WTF does all this have to do with being a submissive?


I agree that bitchiness has no place in a D/s relationship. If I have to resort to bitchiness to communicate with my Master, then really, what kind of relationship do I actually have in the first place? If I opted to be bitchy to him, well, color me gone - or color HIM gone...cause it has no place with us.

At the same time, I am really floored by the comments I've read here. What about the times we're dealing with OTHER people?  I agree that more often than not, simply dealing with something assertively will be enough, but that's not always the case.

You see, amazingly, I am a submissive whether I'm strung up on a cross, baking pies at home, grocery shopping or at work. I am a submissive whether I'm at home in my small town or going someplace in Detroit or through Detroit. However, just because I don't happen to put it out there for the general public doesn't change who I am. Just because I don't submit to the general public, doesn't mean I'm not a submissive while out in it.

What I thoroughly do not understand is the notion that just because we're submissives, we're somehow supposed to just sit back and take whatever life throws at us in some passive manner.

Threaten me and believe me, I am not passive. Threaten my family and there is no such thing as my "inner bitch" She's right out there in the open for the world to see and for the person doing the threatening to deal with. I don't see that this is in conflict with any part of who I am as a submissive.

I re-read the OP, just to see if she might have limited herself to moments within lifestyle related activities, and she did not. She included the whole range of life happenings. Yet, throughout this thread, everyone seems to be focusing on only one situations she outlined.

Nonetheless, I find the comments in this thread amazing. I read something akin to "go tell the DM" and yes, that is an option in a venue where there is one. But believe me, there are moments when bitchy is what gets the job done (even if we don't like to think that it takes all that).

I happen to know someone who takes advantage of the tendency of submissives to be passive. He hears what he wants to hear, he doesn't take no for an answer and is horrifically persistent - not over a period of days in a month, but over years. (For me, it's been TEN (10!!) years of dealing with him, and even though I've been with my Master for 6 of those 10, he still finds ways of stepping in where he's been told specifically not to go - and told by my Master. At times throughout these 10 years, no less than four people have talked to this person on my behalf. Nothing changed except that he was a bit more stealthy in his approach to me) Being nice does NOT get the job done. 

Once, in a room full of submissives, the question was posed, "How many of you have had to deal with unwanted and unstoppable attention from this person?" The submissives were asked to raise their hands. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM had their hands raised. And you'd best believe that we've told our Masters, DMs, and so on, and yes, they've stepped up and stepped in to handle the situation,.but he is who he is and he has not stopped - he will NOT stop.

To a person, what we all found out is that the best thing that works is simply being mean (bitchy) to him. Each and every single time, he was floored that it was happening - evidently, he'd not heard the chorus of "NO!" that we'd all given him throughout the years. But being mean/bitchy was what it took. We might wish we didn't have to go that route, but for us, it was what needed to be done.

So what does being bitchy have to do with being submissive? Sometimes, everthing - even if we wish we didn't have to be that way.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 7/1/2008 4:29:18 AM >

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 4:08:31 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

What do you think?

 
Master has never met this slave's inner bitch.  it isn't something she "needs" to haul out and dust off in order to state an opinion, engage in a debate or use in place of the feminine strength she already has.


excellently put beth .. as always

To the OP
There is a world of difference with having an inner bitch, and directing it at your Dominant. You are in a fundementally differnt reltionship to me in terms of what is present and accepted. If I was a bitch to DV ... I wouldn't be sitting for a week .. and I wouldn't be welcome in His company until I had pulled my head out of my ass. At no point is bitchiness ever useful inside our relationship. Bitchiness is a form of self aggrandisment that is totally inappropriate in a slave. I am a powerful and strong woman, but first I am His slave, and that is always acknowlegded in our dynamic.

That said, He takes great delight in me directing my power, and wit it elsewhere. He encourages my fierce spirit, He just doesn't want it directing at Him. The Taming of the Shrew is a great play and a particular favourite of ours. Katherina is a nasty shrew, who directs her venom everywhere - no one is safe from her inner bitch, she uses it as a defense against the world. From Petruchio she needs no defence, defence is to protect something that is yours, yet he owns her, totally, he takes possession of her, and so she has no need to defend anything from him. Slowly she learns that the defensive, shrewish bitchy behaviour is only hurting herself not him. She learns not to direct it at him, but he still encourages her to use it elsewhere.

I have said often before that a slave who is really strong, has a soul of steel. That is *very* differnt from being a bitch. Being a bitch is in my eyes somethiung negative and destructive and those are two energies that have no place whatsoever in a Ds dynamic

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 4:25:34 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness
I have said often before that a slave who is really strong, has a soul of steel. That is *very* differnt from being a bitch. Being a bitch is in my eyes somethiung negative and destructive and those are two energies that have no place whatsoever in a Ds dynamic


I agree.  Unless we're talking being his sex bitch, I have no need to cultivate any sort of bitch within me.  I think I'm defining bitch differently than others on this thread, though.  I don't see being fiercely protective of one's family as being a bitch, for example, unless you happen to be bitchy while doing so.  Assertive, decisive, strong, and protective do not automatically equate to bitch in my eyes.  In my opinion, bitch is a destructive quality, like the female version of asshole.

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Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 4:29:45 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness
I have said often before that a slave who is really strong, has a soul of steel. That is *very* differnt from being a bitch. Being a bitch is in my eyes somethiung negative and destructive and those are two energies that have no place whatsoever in a Ds dynamic




I agree.  Unless we're talking being his sex bitch, I have no need to cultivate any sort of bitch within me.  I think I'm defining bitch differently than others on this thread, though.  I don't see being fiercely protective of one's family as being a bitch, for example, unless you happen to be bitchy while doing so.  Assertive, decisive, strong, and protective do not automatically equate to bitch in my eyes.  In my opinion, bitch is a destructive quality, like the female version of asshole.


everytime i see the word asshole .. even from your yummy lips ... i think South Park

dunno why!

< Message edited by softness -- 7/1/2008 4:32:31 AM >

_____________________________

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio





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RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 4:31:28 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		lol... and again, we come across situations where one person's definition of bitchy runs differently from another person's definition of bitchy...

That's kind of funny (and I'm not being sarcastic. I just read this and kind of giggled, thinking "of course."

juliet

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 4:34:21 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

everytime i see the word asshole .. even from your yummy lips ... i think South Park

dunno why!


LOL oh great. 

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

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RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 4:39:16 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

lol... and again, we come across situations where one person's definition of bitchy runs differently from another person's definition of bitchy...

That's kind of funny (and I'm not being sarcastic. I just read this and kind of giggled, thinking "of course."

juliet


Bah!  Sometimes I think I live in my own dictionary. 

I've always defined "bitch" as a very negative trait that I would not want to be - unpleasant, spiteful, hurtful, malicious, etc.  Even when my Master calls me "bitch", of all the things he calls me, this always hits me hard.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 4:46:53 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		sorry hun ... *giggles* ... I can't help it!

_____________________________

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio





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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 5:46:29 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Wow, i guess i am just not that good of a person as some of the people who posted here about this.  I can be a verifiable bitch especially when i was an actual slave to a Man - i feel more free to express my negative emotions/nature  to my Master than i do to strangers and the world.    I have a temper and when it gets out of control i tend to react as a bitch.  What i loved about him was he had no problem being the sounding board for the bitch, he was my strength when i couldn't control her and i never had to worry about hurting him or him looking at me in horror because of it even if it was directed at him.  He simply dealt with it in whichever manner he felt like at the time -- sometimes amusement, sometimes with consequences of the not fun kind, sometimes by using me until i couldn't move, and sometimes by ignoring it.  The thing is -- it was HIS choice, not mine. 

And for those who think its negative and distructive in a D/s M/s relationship -- it only would be if the Man did not want to deal with it or didn't know how to deal with it.  And then. yes, those two people are not a match.  Again, don't put actions of a woman as if it is what she does that defines the dynamic -- its not.  

For those who ask what it has to do with submission -- what doesn't it have to do with submission.  Submission or submissive but more of what i know and understand slavery is about the person not about what you do or don't do.  Its not about submission or slavery its about individual women and what creates who they are.  Most Men i come across would rather have the open and fully expressed bitch for him to deal with as the Man, than a woman who is attempting to humor him or get her way by being the secret bitch by utilizing passive-aggressiveness to manipulate him. 

What it comes down to is simple -- if the Man accepts it as part of who his property is -- then its his choice as to what HE allows and how he handles it.  Its not wrong or right, part of or not part of the dynamic, negative or positive -- what it is is how a Man handles personality traits of his slave or submissive.    More than likely, a Man who can't handle or doesn't wish to handle the bitch won't keep a woman whose  bitch appears occassionally.  Many Men simply take the negative with the positive of his girl and deal with the negative as he sees fit.  Personality traits are something a Man chooses as to how to handle with his girl, its not for the girl to determine what goes under the "label" of acceptability in what traits can and cannot be slave or submissive and acceptable in the dynamic. 

Edited for length lol not that it helped any.   angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/1/2008 5:54:47 AM >

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RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 6:17:55 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

I have a temper and when it gets out of control i tend to react as a bitch.

barelynangel


NOOOOOOOO
 
For the last time: self-control at all times.  If you need a chance to 'pause and  reflect' to regain control, take it.
 
Bitch is not a synonymn for 'out of control'; it is a behavior that one selects for self-defense or defense of others.
 
Not all submissives or slaves have 'passive' personalities -- read the "Are You Attracted to 'brats or 'Sams' thread.
 
Life encompasses more than D/s; more than interaction with one's own Dom; more than play in a Dungeon!
 
Gheesh.
 
candystripper

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 6:20:50 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Umm candystripper, when someone loses their temper my TEMPER gets out of control, i react as a bitch sometimes she got out of control but the reasons she was in place is exactly for what you said as a shield and protective barrier  and i am fully controlled when i do which was why it was occassionally used against the Man.  There is a difference between losing your temper and using the bitch to get control of it.  I know exactly what you are saying, perhaps you aren't listening to what i was saying. Just because you see the words out of control don't read your own need to control what the bitch is to a minute detail.  The Bitch in a woman  is a concept of emotion and unless she is leashed many times does need leashing because someone else -- the Man -- who owns her will be her strength. Mine just happens to come out when i lose control of my temper.  Others it is different and they lose control of a situation, of fear of something.  its a coping mechanism nased on a woman's personality which is why there is also the passive-aggressive bitch, the aloof bitch, the bitch from hell, the control bitch.  All types because it tends to be a personality trait.. 

angel


< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/1/2008 6:28:46 AM >

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 6:30:52 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		My apologies if I misunderstood you, barelnangel.  I know how frustrting that can be.
 
Actually, my reaction when someone loses their temper near me is to retreat, retreat, retreat.  Only if that does not work do I engage them.
 
I treat such people as temporarially deranged.  I try and deescalte the sit.  Nothing productive is said when either party is out of control.
 
I expect/want/need self control from my Dom at all times.  I know people are not perfect, and I might forgive a single lapse (or I might not) but a pattern of losing control would quickly drive me off.
 
candystripper

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 11:48:18 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
Most Men i come across would rather have the open and fully expressed bitch for him to deal with as the Man, than a woman who is attempting to humor him or get her way by being the secret bitch by utilizing passive-aggressiveness to manipulate him. 

I think women are much more complex creatures than to box them into only two options - bitch or manipulative passive-aggressive.  I tend to become extremely passionate in the way I express myself.  I am completely open and honest, yet in control and respectful in my words.  This helps me say what I mean and not spew things I will later regret, and will cause me problems later.

I agree with you when you say it is up to the man as to how to deal with his submissive woman. I have been taught to channel my passion into ways that work well for my Master and I.  Each relationship is unique, isn't it?  As to whether or not you are as "good of a person," well, that is up to you.  I certainly didn't say or imply that.  Beginning your post with that made it seem defensive, in my eyes, and effected the way I read it.  Why compare yourself with everyone?

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RE: The Submissive and The Bitch - 7/1/2008 1:57:38 PM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Master has never met this slave's inner bitch.  it isn't something she "needs" to haul out and dust off in order to state an opinion, engage in a debate or use in place of the feminine strength she already has.


this slave agrees, Master would never tolerate the "bitchness" plus this slave finds that having 'inner strength' gets things done faster then being a bitch...
Master Dragons slave

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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