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RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 6:21:43 AM

MistressYlwa

Posts: 263
Joined: 8/25/2005
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I will not play in public with anyone I don't know. Safety issues more than anything else.

If I know them, may ask. Generally they come to me. However this is not something I do often. Prefer the privacy of my home. Just my personal preference.

I have told someone that I am not their Dom. Have learned that subs can be pushy. lol But never have seen anyone so bad that they had to be removed. Just a reminder from staff is usually enough.

Mistress Ylwa

You see what power is - holding someone elses fear in your hand and showing it to them! - Amy Tan

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 21

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 6:30:53 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
Im not sure what you are trying to get at really LA.......if your having a bad day or just trying to pick apart what people say

If you want to keep this on the topic of "how do you deal with people who ask to play with you in public," then let's keep it to that.

If you want to make it yet another rundown of "how I think people are rude" then that is another story.

I'm not trying to pick things apart, but when you say very blatantly "I've never had to deal with rude people" and then turn around and say "I've had to deal with a few rude people" then it calls into question what other perceptions might be dependent on your mood rather than the truth. Are you making honest mistakes of language or are you trying to shape your posts into something that makes you look the best? These are questions inevitably brought up.

As I said in another thread, if a person takes the step to call into question others perceptions/actions, for better or worse, it calls the OPs own perceptions/actions into even sharper question.

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 22

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 6:56:15 AM

SirSix72

Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
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I rarely have to deal with rude people except on the net...and in real life at the club there have been a few but after one too many alot of us can become a bit intrusive wouldnt you agree? Most of the time the persons that are being intrusive apologize for their transgressions...........I could care less about trying to shape a thread to make myself look good...I state facts and sometimes they are ignored and some agree this is what a debate is about really........

Master Six

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Post #: 23

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 7:36:30 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Nobody is picking on you or experiencing a bad day, I think its the inconsistancy that is noticed. And the fact that you tend to pick and choose who you respond to intead of answer questions from Dominants and submissives and slaves and kajiras alike - which may help people understand where your coming from. That in itself if bad ettiquette and rude - something you are a great 'believer' of - and points again to another inconsistancy. And the need to berate instead of fully evolve a discussion. It happens in many of your threads, not just this one.

Peace and Rapture

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.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 24

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 8:07:24 AM

SirSix72

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Joined: 7/14/2005
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Trust I dont feel as if im being picked upon. But there have been a great many threads that have been locked down because of the berating. I as most people tend to write and rewrite posts to try and get the point across. The inconsistancy is really irrelavant its the context or subject matter thats important.I try and rewrite to get my point across but there are times when I see certain people trying to berate others for being a little incosistant. Again its the subject matter thats important. And on the net the rudness from others have been experienced more so than in r/t.....I have to deal with lots of people in the job I now hold managing a alternative lifestyle club.

Master Six

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I wish you well

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 25

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 8:41:57 AM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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But the inconsistancy is only irrelevant to you, but not to people as they percieve the question.
How can a question be answered if the inconsistancy is there - it makes the answer irrelevant in the end.

quote:

I often see lots of Dominants/submissives/swingers and myself playing in lots of places there and never have I seen or heard anyone being rude to one another or have I had anyone other than on the net be rude to me. I find this interesting that this occurs here on the net and not in r/t.

This is your perception. That is what I am trying to explain to you. Because this is the net. These are words. Each word leads to different places, dependant on how you read them. There is no vocal inflection. There are no visual references to draw from. You look at LA for example and see her words and judge that she is 'having a bad day' or trying to pick at your words. My perception from reading how she writes and learning about her and talking to her off the forum that she is genuinely trying to talk with you about how others might percieve your question and is willing to talk through it with you - but your auto response is to try and berate and lower her response to you by accusation. That is my perception. Do you see where I am heading?

So, when you see people that you percieve as being rude online, they may not be - its your perception. Attacking somone or making accusations outright as an automatic response only then gives the person you are talking to the perception that you are being rude - Then myth is then perpetuated by reality. Like Merlin and Tintagel.

In realtime, its easier to see past a persons words because of facial expressions, hand gestures and voice inflection. People are more than just words, but what You see on the screen are just words, not the person themself. It is very easy to mis-interpret the written word and self impose ones own behaviour onto them and draw the wrong concluesion. That is why, during negotiations between factions, there is an arbitrator - someone neutral who has no vested interest. They help negotiate a mutural understanding.

Online and realtime, people take issues and overblow them. They must have the last word. The wisest and most mature reaction is to gently take a step back and hold ones own thoughts as their own and not fall under the spell of those who would try to woo you off course.

Rudeness happens online. So does disrespect. No more than it does in real time. Rudeness and hatred happen there too - it does tend to be a bit more underhand however. Because its natural for people to deceive and want to gain from controling the situation.

But the best control one has, is self realisation.

Peace and Rapture

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.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 26

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 9:03:43 AM

Phoenxx

Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
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OK if you only find rude people online, then why are you coming online at all? Masochist tendencies perhaps ;-) now that is a joke… but you may take it as being rude and disrespectful. Since you cannot see my face as I type it, or hear the inflection of my voice… you have to take my word for it, or judge it based on YOUR perceptions. This is what many people are and have been trying to point out to you.

You do start this thread by claiming how wonderful real life is, almost Pollyanna like.. and then point out that you have had a few not-so-rude rude people. And that it’s ok because they have had a few too many. And you wonder why LA is asking you questions?

How about how long have you managed the club? Wait until you hit that 5 year mark and see how many rude, violent and damn nasty people you have run into. How many members are in the club? How often do they attend? Are there penalties for breaking protocols, and what are they? How much are memberships? What is the ratio between male and female, Tops and bottoms etc…

These are not frivolous questions. It is an attempt to build a statistical universe and see how relevant your experiences are. At the event I mentioned earlier, they are held every 6-8 weeks with attendance varying from 150 twice a year to approx. 300 the rest. The last one had 650 people due to a special celebration. In the 3 years of volunteering, I have had to kick out 2 people. In the 10 years of the events existence I think 3 have been banned in total.

Now you have some data to work with. Not just a series of statements that seem to contradict each other.

Just a personal note. Since I suck at spelling I tend to write my posts first in Word, and then re-read them. And then correct my mistakes. I often then re-read what I am posting about to see if it makes sense or if I am taking something the wrong way. Yes, it is a long and involved process. But based on far too many years of being online, I find this allows me to communicate better with most people.
Tony

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 27

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 9:18:05 AM

Kindred2Evil

Posts: 227
Joined: 4/16/2005
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I've play in dungeons publicly here for about 4 years (since I moved to the South, boy are there some great groups down here!) I have never had a bad experience that I can think of.
I believe in being polite no matter whom I am speaking to or with. I use honorifics if that is how I am introduced ex: This is my slave. He or she is called slave unless thier owner gives them a name. In one of the clubs we attend, it's considered impolite to address a submissive or slave unless their Master/Mistress/Owner/Dom introduces them first.
Protocols vary from place to place, club to group. It's a matter of knowing the rules and what is expected from you, if in doubt, ask!
The only time I have been confused is when someone I know as a switch is being unclear as to what side of the fence they are on that night. But being an S&M switch myself, I know it happens ;)

_____________________________

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(in reply to Phoenxx)

Post #: 28

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 9:43:00 AM

Sunshine119

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One of the interesting things I have noticed in the short time I have been here, my first O/L experience, is how quickly people do overreact to words. It seems to me that LA/ES has consistently tried to work towards clarifying how those words are really meant and how they are received.

Most studies show that only 20% of what is understood is realized by the words used. Fully 40% of the content of what is being "said" is realized by body language and 40% by the inflections/tones used. Consequently, when one requests additional clarification, I do not see it as a insult or having a bad day. It seems that we do need to truly understand what the OP and the responders are saying by their words alone.

Besides LA/ES is a philosopher. Rhetoric should be one of her skills. Knowing who she is helps to understand the reasons why she needs further clarification and responses, free from perceived conflict

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 29

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 9:44:13 AM

SirSix72

Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
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Greetings DarkAngel,

you are right and I cant see the facial expressions or the body and voice influctuations. I try and explain to the best of my ability but I do get a but steamed when the subject matter is misconstrued by a mere inconsistancy such as I stated. I think about how others may concieve my questions and I usually prepare myself for the onslaught of derisive comments. we have all been there at one time or another. But the fact still remains abotu what im talking about this thread and others I have started. To call oneself TPE and the way you come across within the context of a sentence leaves alot of us wondering just what you are thinking(not talking about you personally)and where you are coming from.Like limits take for instance...those taht say " I will not engage" this sentence gives shifts the power dynamic in thier favor which in turn makes the Dominant a facilitator in the scene. If you were to state that " I would like to request that I not be included or participate in a certain scene" then this leaves the Dominant in control of the situation.THen there are those that say if you cross this then this is the breaking point of the relationship. How can you submit and lay down the law? This is the situation I have been trying to get an answer to. I know that there are different strokes for different folks but the fact of the matter remains. If you talk about achieving a power exchange relationship then someone has to be in control without the fear of the other leaving because of an emotional boundry being broken. There should always be a good line of communication but to lay the law stops this progress of communication. Again different strokes for different folks. There are alot of weekend warriors and nothing wrong with that either. Rudness is precieved by words or body language. Usually they have coinsided with one another in my experiences.

Master Six

< Message edited by SirSix72 -- 11/8/2005 9:48:53 AM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 9:46:14 AM

ImpGrrl

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

The one subject I have yet to touch upon is how many of you actually play in public dungeons.

Fairly regularly, here in Atlanta - and before that, even more regularly in NYC.

quote:

I am curious if you were in a public/members dungeon how would you react if propositioned to play in a public dungeon how you would react?

It depends on many factors. Do I know this person? How well? Who am I there with? Do I have other commitments that evening? Do I need permission (if with Sir)? Have I seen this person play - if they are a top, do they have good skills, both interpersonal and SM? If they are a bottom, how do they play? What kind of mood am I in? Etc, etc, etc.

quote:

Would you fall into the your not my Dom thing. Or I dont have to call you Master.

If negotiating play with a top, I don't do submission - I bottom. If they have a problem with that, we don't play. If I know them very well, and we have the appropriate relationship, I *might* negotiate *some* submission into the scene - for our mutual enjoyment.

But I find your hang-up on this "You're not my dom!" thing odd. People don't scream that out, on the net or in real life. They *may* say it to one another. But generally only when provoked - when they feel like someone is trying to pull unearned authority.

My response to someone who tries these things - I'd politely say, "I don't play that way." or "No, thank you." If they press their luck, they might indeed be reminded that they do not hold authority over me - and that their chosen relational role does *not* grant them "station" in my life.

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 31

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 9:53:56 AM

SirSix72

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Greetings ImGrrl,

I appericiate your input and the way you come across with I dont play like that is apporiate in my opinion. But I have and I think, I may be wrong, others have experienced the saying your not my Dom so I dont have to. This is really rude and those of us that do play regulary and attend public dungeons know the rules of engagement. I run into this on the interent more than I have in real life. Thanks for the positive post

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to ImpGrrl)

Post #: 32

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 10:07:11 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

I think about how others may concieve my questions and I usually prepare myself for the onslaught of derisive comments.

Hello again. Your statement above shows how you feel. Your are prepared for the derisive comments. Maybe it would assist you better to focus on derisive comments but on perceptions instead? If you only focus on negativity, that is all you will read and perceive. Thats just a thought and genuine offer of advise?

quote:

Like limits take for instance...those taht say " I will not engage" this sentence gives shifts the power dynamic in thier favor which in turn makes the Dominant a facilitator in the scene. If you were to state that " I would like to request that I not be included or participate in a certain scene" then this leaves the Dominant in control of the situation.THen there are those that say if you cross this then this is the breaking point of the relationship. How can you submit and lay down the law?

OK - this only works if all dominants have control of every submissive. The way you describe above works on a unique and well established relationship - like your's and bella's. But not every dominant is the facilitator.
If for an example, I was in the club with You and we were talking and it led to a possiblity to scene. Now, I may say 'I will not engage' - that does not in turn, make you the facilitator. The facilitator would be my Dominant. Does this make sense? Now, if I was unowned and uttered the words, 'No thank you, I will not engage' - again that does not make you the facilitator. Because there is no service. If a person that was submissive to You, said that, then she would of course be wrong to(unless this was something you had agreed she could do in advance).

Is this making any sense?

Peace and Love

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 11/8/2005 10:09:15 AM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 33

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 10:16:26 AM

ImpGrrl

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

To call oneself TPE and the way you come across within the context of a sentence leaves alot of us wondering just what you are thinking(not talking about you personally)and where you are coming from.

Looking at a relationship from outside gives one *no* ability or right to define that relationship.

quote:

Like limits take for instance

Every human being has limits - and I define limits as those things which will *not* be pushed. I don't do hard and soft limits - in my life, all limits are hard limits. Since you've defined "limits" as "things which affect play", I'll stick to that - there are some forms of play which are damaging to some people, for whatever reason. No matter if that form of play *itself* is "SSC" (or whatever scale you use) - it's *not* sane for that person to engage in it. Thus - it should be a limit.

quote:

...those taht say " I will not engage" this sentence gives shifts the power dynamic in thier favor which in turn makes the Dominant a facilitator in the scene.

Relationships all have some form of compromise in them - if the d-type accepts the limit as part of their dynamic, where is the power shift? Both (all) patners can stop negotiation/relations at any time, if it isn't acceptable to them.

quote:

If you were to state that " I would like to request that I not be included or participate in a certain scene" then this leaves the Dominant in control of the situation.

I'd like some clarification - are you talking about an ongoing relationship, or a scene negotiation?

For the former - anything that I don't like/am afraid of/whatever (what some might consider "soft limits" do indeed get this treatment in my relationship. "This is how I feel about this, Sir - do what you will, but understand the potential fallout." My actual limits (what others might call "hard limits"), however, are absolutely - "I will not do X, under any circumstances - if you can accept me with that limit, great. If not, let's understand that this is a mis-match, and keep looking."

Sir is still "in control" of the situation - he just knows within what parameters he must operate if he accepts. The key words? *If he accepts*.

See - it's all about both (all) partners understanding and accepting the parameters. Sir and I are aligned on our "absolutely not"s. If he were concerned with "full control without limits", and we were a mis-match - we wouldn't be in this relationship. So - our parameters are the same, and we fit.

quote:

THen there are those that say if you cross this then this is the breaking point of the relationship.

*Everyone* has that line - the lucky/happy/well-matched ones never hit it. No matter what they call themselves - slaves, submissive, dominant, master - everyone has a "line in the sand".

I agree that some lines don't mix with some types of relationships. But everyone has them.

quote:

How can you submit and lay down the law?

See above, where I talk about both partners having and accepting parameters. Every s-type basically says "I will submit within these parameters." Each person's parameters are different. It's not all or nothing.

quote:

If you talk about achieving a power exchange relationship then someone has to be in control without the fear of the other leaving because of an emotional boundry being broken.

There are different types of control - it's not all or nothing. I agree - relationships should never be lived in fear of the other leaving, for any reason. That's why it's best for both (all) partners to operate within the parameters agreed upon.

quote:

There should always be a good line of communication but to lay the law stops this progress of communication.

I wonder if you think a d-type "laying down the law" stops the progress of communication? Yet it happens all the time.

Parameters, and agreements.

[qoute]Again different strokes for different folks.

You *say* that, but you don't seem to *mean* it.

quote:

There are alot of weekend warriors and nothing wrong with that either.

You seem to be implying that everyone who does not live as you believe is "right" are "weekend warriors". It's *not* all or nothing.

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 34

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 11:03:55 AM

Kasia

Posts: 442
Joined: 6/25/2005
From: The Coast of Adria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
You also can't apply swinger culture rules to bdsm culture rules- they are vastly different.

Would you mind clarifying your statement?

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Kassia

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 35

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 11:09:21 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
This is really rude and those of us that do play regulary and attend public dungeons know the rules of engagement. I run into this on the interent more than I have in real life. Thanks for the positive post

Master Six

I want to know all the circumstances- what did the top do/say BEFORE the bottom responded in such a fashion?

You yourself admit that you got a bit steamed and this is just in an online discourse and it caused you to react in a less than rational and mature way. Does that mean you were rude? Does that mean I was rude?

I know this has nothing to do with the topic at hand (dealing with requests to play in public), but somehow it seems to be what you keep going on about.

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 36

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 11:11:38 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

Greetings,

I have read and participated in many posts that cover a variety of subjects. The one subject I have yet to touch upon is how many of you actually play in public dungeons. I have read a variety of posts here on CM about calling someone by thier given station. I am curious if you were in a public/members dungeon how would you react if propositioned to play in a public dungeon how you would react? Would you fall into the your not my Dom thing. Or I dont have to call you Master. I manage an alternative lifestyle members only club. We have a members dungeon area and lots of playing areas. I often see lots of Dominants/submissives/swingers and myself playing in lots of places there and never have I seen or heard anyone being rude to one another or have I had anyone other than on the net be rude to me. I find this interesting that this occurs here on the net and not in r/t. I understand that we all find someone on the net or search by other means of finding someone to play with. I am curious though about what everyone elses think about going to a public/members playing area and how you think you would react or have reacted.

Master Six

I note that above you are talking about a private club -- you have your rules and the club's way of doing things. People who don't want to follow those rules, don't come to the club, right?

The rest of the world is not a private club. There is no one set of rules especially for this title issue.

By the way, why is being called a title or not so bloody important to you? It seems to be the constant theme of your posts?

I find it all very intriguing that it is this important to you. This isn't meant as an attack but I've never met anyone in meatlife, in a club, or on the net who was this concerned and almost single minded about it.

Very interesting....

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 37

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 11:25:19 AM

AbstractSavant

Posts: 149
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The analysis paralysis continues.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 38

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 11:37:28 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kasia
Would you mind clarifying your statement?

Swingers have a different set of expectations/manners/ways to go by than bdsmers do...and than foot fetishists do...and than tickle fetishists do...etc. etc.

These usually are not terribly or vastly different. The good manners we all should have within us should be able to carry us over to any of these groups with very little friction.
Safe and slow is always good until you get known or used to the rules of the group.

But there are differences, sometimes key ones. With swingers/bdsmers the largest seems to be the issue of touching/getting involved. For bdsm it is almost a cardinal sin to touch someone without permission, even casual touching, and horrific enter or be involved in a scene without express permission.

For swingers, casual and intimate touching is far more common and in fact often used in the place of the request to touch itself. Initial touching is a way to feel the people out. The rules on getting into a session that other swingers are involved in are also far more relaxed than in bds, requiring far less blatant requests and lower level of social comfort.

That doesn't mean you don't "ask" and it certianly doesn't mean swingers never say no to being touched or having people come in the middle of things. But the "social dance" is based on a different set of expectations and series of steps.

Given this, applying "that was rude and wrong" in a bdsm context is a very different thing than in a swinger context. It may just be an honest misunderstanding. Something that is rude to us might be considered favorable and encouraged to them.

(in reply to Kasia)

Post #: 39

RE: Why or Why Not - 11/8/2005 11:43:58 AM

SirSix72

Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
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I was thinking about take for instance.....I know for the rest of you I keep going back to this............there has been an opportunity to play with multiple poeple in a public dungeon for either the Master or the sub/slave......I know that different opportunities are always manifesting for me......and if this topic of play has been negoiated within the dynamic but one or the other has drawn a line in the sand and refuses to communicate because of this line then whom has control? Personally I think it is the person that has drawn the line and has become close minded so to speak about the subject.........this in turn cuts off communication within the dynamic of the TPE relationship.......this can be for other things besides poly or playing with others let your imagination take over from here......I sometime think that too much emphasis is placed in the negoiation phase based upon can and wont do...I personally cant say what might turn me on in the next week or month to follow...but there are these parameters that some folk follow to find someone.....In my personal opinon this dosent lead to much sexual discovery within any relationship........I thought that being open, respectful and trusting one another in any given situation/scene was the key ...I have seen and I have knocked alot of how people play based on this..........I always remain open about the possbilities that may or may not arise without emotional reservation based on prior baggage.......I can also understand how others can be emotionally stressed about some scenes that they are faced with but again if you continue to be open, honest and respectful then this will pass.........
I have seen personally experienced that some wont engage in certian types of play like someone had just posted based that it wasnt sane for them...ok lets get a grip is it sane to tie someone up and spank them?......probably not...kink is called sexually deivant behaviour...... the mainstream way of thinking plagues the scene sometimes in my opinoin.....
I agree with what you said as well darkangel about the facilitator based on the fact of no service...but if there is service then the laws are laid so to speak then the Dominant becomes the facilitator in the relationship....

ImpGrrl I dont knock the weekend warriors at all but I sometimes view them pressing the way they play upon those that live TPE......I dont believe that my way is right although it is logical........and the laying the law does stop communication in the area noted as off limits....how can you communicate about something you are unable to talk about trying.......see what I mean the communication is closed in this area...again I understand that there are times that 2 agree this is off limits, Kudos for them. But again I will rephrase that I personally dont know what might trip my trigger in the following weeks or months....there are only a limited number of limits I impose upon anyone playing with me or I own them and thats scat or illegal activities.....which I think that there are alot of us that can agree with and I know there are those that do this,Kudos for them.

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 40

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