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RE: When to give it up - 7/8/2008 1:42:01 PM

masterforRT

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This is one of the paradoxes of BDSM....In most other professions, experience is valued. In BDSM, frequently it is not! The older you are the less desirable you are to a sub or slave, even though you are more experienced them most. I chuckle when i read: "Master X is my dream Dom, and after all, he has three years experience!". A whole 3 years, huh? I and many here have 3 decades or more-yet we're shunned.

Whan I think back about my early years as a Dom, I shudder. I didn't know that much about limits then. I would drink and/or smoke pot during BDSM sessions. I was way too brutal at times. It's a miracle that I never killed or maimed anyone then!

< Message edited by masterforRT -- 7/8/2008 1:45:42 PM >

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RE: When to give it up - 7/8/2008 1:55:00 PM

softness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: masterforRT

This is one of the paradoxes of BDSM....In most other professions, experience is valued. In BDSM, frequently it is not! The older you are the less desirable you are to a sub or slave, even though you are more experienced them most. I chuckle when i read: "Master X is my dream Dom, and after all, he has three years experience!". A whole 3 years, huh? I and many here have 3 decades or more-yet we're shunned.

Whan I think back about my early years as a Dom, I shudder. I didn't know that much about limits then. I would drink and/or smoke pot during BDSM sessions. I was way too brutal at times. It's a miracle that I never killed or maimed anyone then!

I just had to respond to this

It may well have taken you "3 decades" to come to the conclusion that being high or drunk when engaging in heavy play and probably was a bad idea ... others of us .. could have gotten that in under 3 minutes ... its called enaging the common sense area of the brain.

perhaps the wonderful Master with three years experience managed in 3 years .. what it took you 30 years to learn? or maybe not ... I am not much impressed by people with a high volume of experience ... its about the quality of what they do .. not how long they have been doing it.

I have almost no experience as a Domme (what with being a slave and all).. but I would be considerably better as a Domme than some people I know who have been doing it for 30 years ...

sorry just felt that needed to be said .. slamming the young for being young .. is as offensive and stupid as slamming the old for being old

< Message edited by softness -- 7/8/2008 1:56:18 PM >

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RE: When to give it up - 7/8/2008 1:56:14 PM

ServingGirrl

Posts: 115
Joined: 10/10/2007
From: Melbourne, Australia
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i get disappointed at the sheer number of profiles which seek someone "aged between 25 and 40". Did i become less obedient and less valuable a servant when i turned 40? Admittedly i have a few more lines on my face than i did when i was 25 but, as Yoda said "When 900 years of age YOU reach, look as good, you will not". i'm not 900 (though some mornings it might feel that way) but i like to flatter myself that even in my late 40's i still scrub up quite nicely. It truly is a shame that reliability and experience and skill are considered less valuable than a more-recent Birth Certificate by so many folk.

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RE: When to give it up - 7/8/2008 7:18:21 PM

Enochian

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~FR~

One of the things that I see often is that people come "here" when they need a place to vent in a community that at least has a clue of what dynamics they are going through. As I often say to people: "Simply the act of talking about one's burdens to someone else; is often enough to lift some of the burden".

Humans are (mostly) social creatures; and often turn to that solace of company when needed.

The one question that comes to my mind about the OP is that with his experience in his community; has he talked this out with people he knows locally / face-to-face? 90+% of all communications is non-verbal, and para-verbal; and that goes both ways. There is a limit (in my opinion) as to what can be gained by combinations of 26 letters arranged in meaningful ways.

I sincerly hope that the OP also has some local support for what he's going through; and can have that as well. Self-doubt, for any reason, is insidious, and caustic to the soul; and can take quite a lot to root out. I think that lots of good advice has been given already; but I haven't yet seen anyone here speak to one's local support circle; even if 'nilla but understanding. (heck; a few of my 'nilla friends know I'm stranger then most; but they are also fine with it; and I can bitch and moan to them as well. I've been blessed, thankfully!)

So; best wishes to the OP, and I hope he's got a few friends he can go have a beer with; and get over this with; and take a break; and decide how to deal with the relationship issues. Break, Fix, or Punt; all of them are going to suck in the near term; none are guarenteed in the long term; but motion is usualy better then inaction.

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RE: When to give it up - 7/9/2008 10:47:36 AM

subsfaith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anotherwouldbe

I guess the question is, what do I do next? I'm not sure if it's her or if maybe I really am a failure at being a master. Is my own self-doubt enough to say I'm not really a master? Is my inability to control someone who claims her lifelong dream is to be a slave mean I'm a failure? Are my thoughts of giving this whole thing up a sign that I'm weak and not up to the challenge of the responsibility of a slave? Should I stick it out even though I'm pretty sure I probably won't be able to make this thing work? Should I just accept the fact that maybe I am a failure at this and move on? I'm not sure I want to go on to another relationship. After a bad first marriage, I was actually taking a risk in this one. I'm not exactly old but I do feel I'm old enough that I could easily spend the rest of my life on my own. I just know I can't continue with the life I'm leading now.

Hi anotherwouldbe,

Whilst not a Master, I hear you, I have an opinion and I can relate to what you are saying from a submissive point of view. I am also ashamed to admit that I can recognise some of my own behaviour from my past, in the behaviour of your slave.

I imagine, if your slave is anything like me, she thinks she is trying to help you. However, all she is actually doing is disrespecting you and undermining your authority, and self esteem. I can see this quite clearly now, but there was a time I swore I was just trying to help.

I read a book called The Surrendered Wife by Laura Doyle. It suggested not giving my man my opinion, transferring all control to him, and being respectful. It is not based on power exchange as BDSMers know it, but still it jolly well works! I think it is perhaps moreso BDSM than the ter ever envisaged.

Perhaps you could get a copy and ask her to read it, or write you a report on it?

All relationships take commitment, now is the time you both need to ask yourselves, are you commitment to each other, regardless of what has past before you can decide how to move on.

Good luck,
faith

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RE: When to give it up - 7/9/2008 2:11:17 PM

SirDominic

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I think all you have proven has nothing to do with "Are you a good Master?" What you have proven is that you are not a good Master for HER. The two of you sound completely incompatible. I takes two to make the M/s relationship thrive after all.

The more important issue to me is that you externalize your worth. You state that all the hundreds of people you have dealt with over the years consider you to be a good Master. Your current sub is constantly telling you you are not. You will never prove your worth, or lack thereof, by hanging on these external opinions. What do you think about yourself? Do you think you are a good Master? Or not? It isn't called SELF-esteem for nothin. No one can give you that, and no one can take it away, unless you let them. You have to begin to believe in your own worth from your own internal criteria. From within yourself, not outside sources.

Oh, one final thing, a real Master DOES give up if they come to believe the person they are with is not compatible. I've had to do it and don't consider myself any less for it. The chemistry is either there or it isn't. If it isn't, no amount of time trying to force it is ever going to make it real.

Take a break. Internalize about yourself. Stop being so hard on yourself. Even Masters are human. And do get rid of this girl pronto.

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RE: When to give it up - 7/13/2008 10:26:27 PM

ApathyRomance

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@OP I guess making it through eight years of that emotional BS is something to be proud of? *shrugs* If "the lifestyle" (and imagine me saying that with the most scorn possible) is something that's important to you why would you give it up? People have problems and split up all the time. Other people stay in crappy situations all the time. Other people abandon their dreams all the time. You can pretty much be whatever one of those, or many other people you'd like to be.

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RE: When to give it up - 7/13/2008 10:51:40 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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Normally I'd address you by your pseudonym here, but it is so depressing an admission of your anger and headspace right now, I just refuse to use it.

I won't presume to advise you, or offer empty words of commiseration. I will only share with you that one of the most Masterfully dominant man I have ever met, went through much of the same experiences as you are anguishing over at this moment. In fact, I had to stop and re-read your post because for a moment I thought it was he. If you write and give me permission to share this pseudonym of yours, I will be happy to pass your name on to him. Perhaps his insight might be helpful for you. I know men probably don't network and commiserate like women, but if you wanted another Dominants perspective, who has been through what you are going through he would be a wonderful person to speak with.

Winsome

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RE: When to give it up - 7/13/2008 11:03:24 PM

BKSir

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I believe I have to agree with LuckyAlbatross on this one. I've always held that there is no such thing as a 'bad sub', or 'bad master'. However there is such a thing as 'the wrong sub/master'. A sub that does not clique with me, may be precisely and perfectly fitted for you.

And, if she wants a command, an order... here it is. "Go. As your master, that is my command to you. You wish me to behave like you would imagine a 'real master', then fine. You will leave and darken my door no longer. There will be no discussion, you will go, because that is my wish and my command."

It is, yes, easier said than done. No one likes to release a sub/pet/slave. But sometimes, it is for the best, for one or both parties.

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RE: When to give it up - 7/19/2008 9:55:45 PM

SensualTouch1001

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This isn't about bad Master, this is about absolutely Toxic Relationship!

What you describe, are the relationship dynamics of an emotionally abusive relationship. It is exactly like described in the books about abused women. Since I have been through something like that, including women's shelter etc. let me tell you something.

Abuse can happen in any type of relationship. Forget the BDSM part or frame. Abuse is not only battering, it is also emotional, etc. There are websites for abused men, and you will find the exact description of her behavior there. They will tell you, you are not alone. It happens to others too. It erodes your self esteem and from being blamed you start doubting yourself.

In my opinion, anyone above who ever so lightly states what you should do, does not know the dynamics of an abusive relationship. It ain't that easy! It is too late for couple's therapy but a counselor or even a phone hotline for men in abusive relationships can help.

A very important point in this context is, no matter why she does it, or what brought her to doing it or whatever reasons she might have for doing it, putting you down, critizising your abilities etc, IT IS WRONG. A man who beats his wife, also has reasons. It is still wrong.

As men are usually not so powerless in relationships as women can be (financially, taking care of kids etc), you could possibly find another way. I don't know but could you just tell her to stop right f**** now? If you find you can't do it, if you feel weak or insecure, you need help cause her behavior made you weak and insecure.

You can still love her, you can still want her, but get help and move away from the situation unless you can change it totally. She got you hooked on your self doubt and I assume you are a caring man, also on that one. Her abusive behavior even twisted your thinking.

The easiest first step is googling a website for abused men or going to the book store and reading up on abuse. They might only have books on abused women but the behavior and its effects are so very similar. You can see for yourself whether I am right or not.

Good luck with everything. You count and your life counts. Sure you are a master, why would that have changed?

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RE: When to give it up - 7/19/2008 11:49:19 PM

MasterFireMaam

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Why does the success or failure of a relationship have to define who you are? Relying on outside sources for you sense of self worth will eventually lead to disaster (as you're seeing). She was able to manipulate you and such because you gave her the power to define who you are. You are not your failures...neither are you your successes. We often fall into the trap because we want the positive experience of the latter...but by making our Self equal to our success, so too must it be equal to our failure. You need to separate yourself from all that. THEN, you can look at the relationship and learn from it.

Master Fire

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RE: When to give it up - 7/20/2008 1:22:21 AM

Owner4SexSlave

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First and foremost, you are a human being.   Again, first and foremost you are only Human.   Meaning, you have strengths and weakness.   Everybody has flaws and faults even DOMs.

Being a DOM does not mean you have to be perfect. No Master is totally perfect. Embrace this concept. Embrace your short comings as part of you. Hell, that some of these things you don't even have to change unless you want or need to change.   Basically, taking the FUCK IT, I am what I am attitude.

Right now, the greatest weapon that is hurting you, is your sense of self esteem and worth.   Shure she pulls out the right words, and it presses your sense of self worth button.

While I don't know everything that is going on in your relationship, the history or whatever else.   You need to systematically tackle and deal with the issues going on.

Start with yourself. You need to disable the buttons she's pressing. She won't stop pressing those buttons, but she might be in for a surpise when she goes to push buttons and not see the results she was expecting. Face it, she knows you like the back of her own hand now.   This is to be expected in any long term relationship.

In terms of doing D/s outside of a scene or the bedroom. Hell yes, there are small things you can do as reminders that reinforce the D/s dynamic.   They don't have to be anything major or even sexual or a BDSM activitity per se.

Can be a simple as ordering/commanding her to stand still in the middle of the kitchen.   Make her stand still, have her take a deep breath, you counting to 10 slowly, then telling her to exhaul, at the end of the Exhaul, you saying something like "Good Girl", repeat the process a few times.   Ask her how she is feeling? Make certain she addresses you as "Sir, Master" or whatever protocol you use. Get a "Thank You, Master". It's a Thank you, for you taking time to reinforce the D/s for a moment, and a Thank You for the calm moment during the day.

In short, you have taken control of what the hell she was doing in the kitchen. Don't do this while she is in the middle of cooking dinner. Use some common sense when doing this. You can do this anywhere or any place.   You are making her stand still, you are taking control of her breathing, and it's also putting her into a state of calm. Even if she is not liking this, this excerise is a basic relaxation technique.   You are actually putting her into a slightly different state of mind.

I will often do many different small things like this to reinforce D/s.

I've take a moment, to make somebody place their hands on the lid of a washer or dryer while doing laundry, telling them to spread their legs slightly and show me their ass.   Arch their back inward, ass out a little. Then make a comment about what I was looking at. Then pause for a moment of silence, then have them get back to doing the Laundry.   Hell this can be done in a matter of 120 seconds.

It's the small things like this, that don't take much time. However, they reinforce D/s.

< Message edited by Owner4SexSlave -- 7/20/2008 1:44:54 AM >

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RE: When to give it up - 7/20/2008 1:44:17 AM

Owner4SexSlave

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The whole CEO vs. Micromanagement thing, is a double edge sword. I'd want to systematically put a hault to this game.   Break it down to very specific things that she needs to be micromanaged on and those things she does not.   DO NOT PLAY with Generalizations! That's a mind fuck to go there with Generalizations.

All else fails, kick up the micromanagement! If she gives you the whole CEO bit, say something smart assed, such as your are BOSS, and you are gonna run your business as you see fit! Fuck whatever other CEO's do with thier business, that's their business.   You are only worried about your business. That it's this relationship!   Tell her this is a M/s relationship not a fortune 500 fucking company! Now drop and give me a blow job now, like you would if you were a secretary to a CEO in a Fortune 500 company since you love comparing me to a CEO.

I don't know if this will or will not work for you. Everybody is different. I'm just expressing things that I myself would do.

Companies have a Tier of people, and the CEO is far removed from over seeing the Janitor, but somebody you damn well bet is overseeing that Damn Janitor. So unless you have a Middle Management Dom in your relationship! You are the BOSS.   I'd shoot down things using Logic here as best I could, and express it logically.

Let her know what you do and don't want to micromanage! If she has a problem doing a task on her own that you assigned. It's TRAINING TIME! Tackle Specific Skills and Skills relatted to performing certain tasks.   She has a brain, and she should be able to use it and figure things out.  If she pulls this BS about you needing to tell her every detail about something. Then say, I guess it's Training Time.   Come up with a training plan, cover skill enhancement in the areas she needs.

I'd probally mention a lot of things first in a sit down heart to heart conversation.

Now, I'm a bit of a smart ass. If she was going back and forth between the CEO and Micromanagment thing.   I just might decide to micromanage her cleaning the toliet with a toothbrush.   Sure, it's not practical! However, it's practical because you are making her do something the WAY YOU WANT, and it takes longer. I would tell a slave, that it's going to take longer. I want it to take longer so you can reflect upon how much you truely need to be micromanaged by me.

I'd probally have a sit down heart to heart with her about wanting clarification about what she feels she needs to be micromanaged with after the toliet was clean.

Sure you might seem like you are being an asshole, but you are being a practical one.

Again, these are things that I myself would attempt or do. Everybody is different. I can not say that this is going to work for you 100% without doubt.

I'm just tossing out ideas here, in terms of what I myself would do.

I'd start to systematically shut the games down though.

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RE: When to give it up - 7/20/2008 1:58:22 AM

dreamerdreaming

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What everybody else said.

Don't waste another eight years in such a manner. Life is too short! I'd be done with it ASAP. I'll bet you'd be a fine Master for the right slave. Just not this one. Life is way, way too short to be wasting so much time in misery, when there's an easy fix.

I think a lot of people make the same mistake and I've done it too myself, but investing more time in a long-term relationship to try to save it when you really know in your heart that its futile, is just a way of putting off the inevitable time of heartache and soul-searching that will come with the break. But if you are already miserable, then what's the difference? Go ahead and make the break now, so that you can get the "hard part" overwith. Its really the easy part compared to where you are now, I'm pretty sure you know. So, leave it. Move on with your life, without her, and I'll bet your confidence will return in no time without her there constantly undermining it.

Before Domming again I'd take some time to examine how I let things get so out of hand to begin with, so that you don't repeat the same mistakes. Why have you been so easily manipulated? That's on you. Never let a slave do that to you. Take control, and keep it. You'll be wrong sometimes, but so what? Nobody's perfect. Correct yourself, apologize if need be, learn and grow. Move forward with confidence in yourself and your abilities. Constantly second- guessing yourself, or letting your slave manipulate you into doing so, is poison.

I really like the way BKSir said it, above: Command her:
"You will leave and darken my door no longer. There will be no discussion, you will go, because that is my wish and my command."

That is fabulous. It might seem cold to some but in the end she'll see it is a kindness. You gave up your power to her long ago, and the Master/slave dynamic between the two of you was ruined at that time.

Oops, I meant to address the OP (what's his name?) -sorry about that MasterFireMa'am. I also loved what you said above, about a failed relationship not meaning that the person is a failure. So many people take it so personally, when they're just a bad match!

< Message edited by dreamerdreaming -- 7/20/2008 2:07:16 AM >

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