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Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage of t... - 6/29/2008 6:00:02 PM

katie978

Posts: 352
Joined: 7/21/2007
Status: offline

   Having read many posts lately about "training", I've been pondering this interesting and pretty femsub/ maledom specific phenomenon. The dearth of female dominants means that when a male sub manages to find one, he usually keeps her.
   The way I see it, a young, sub-frenzied girl new to the lifestyle wants to learn how to do things. An older, experienced dom who knows he has no chance to be this girl's boyfriend/master offers his services as a trainer: he gets to fuck her and fuck with her mind with no actual relationship. He may eventually convince her that he's a worthwhile partner, despite whatever initially made her decide to accept him only as a trainer.
   I put out to the wise folk on the forums (and the rest of you too) what are the benefits of a trainer for a submissive? Is this always a shady enterprise, or are there legitimate relationships where a submissive actually learns something? Anyone have experience with this? Still with your trainer?

_____________________________

"That's the plan. Rule the world. You and me. Anyday ::wink::"

Post #: 1

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:08:11 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

A good way to take advantage of the naive....unless of course you have some need to learn how to balance a ball on your nose while riding a unicycle through a hoop of fire or something.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/29/2008 6:17:53 PM >

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to katie978)

Post #: 2

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:09:19 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: katie978

I put out to the wise folk on the forums (and the rest of you too) what are the benefits of a trainer for a submissive? Is this always a shady enterprise, or are there legitimate relationships where a submissive actually learns something? Anyone have experience with this? Still with your trainer?

Depends on what we are talking about. I think it is often abused, but that doesn't mean the concept is always bad. Usually I don't suggest being trained beforehand as tastes vary greatly and what one person likes (and trains) another other may hate and not feel like untraining. Other owners also like to do their own training and prefer to have a fresh slate.

However, if it's greatly important to the person in question that they come into a relationship knowing certain things training may be effective - depending on what it is. Say they want to learn Gorean slave positions or the Gorean silk colors or the correct way of serving afternoon tea during Victorian England. These things can be learned using creditable resources (either the Gor books or old manuals in these cases). In those cases, I don't see getting a trainer as a problem provided both the trainer and trainee come into the situation knowing what to expect and when the contact will end. While some would be annoyed that the person sought out training instead of being a fresh slate, others will probably be pleased by the eagerness.

Edited for typo

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/29/2008 6:12:54 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to katie978)

Post #: 3

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:09:47 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

When someone can explain to me how one person can train you for another I will believe that trainers have a useful purpose.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 4

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:15:46 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Katy- well for me training is much more like going to a university, or having a physical trainer, or taking a cooking class. It's not training you for another, it's simply building your own personal repertoire from which to access in the future.

Which is where most go wrong to begin with- they DO seek someone to simply prepare them for "the one" when obviously that can't be done until the one has expressed exactly what he/she will want.

99% of the time, "trainer" in the kink world is just a euphemism for "dude I fuck and play with and feel snuggly warm and protected without having to face the concept that I'm actually DOING this because I want to and can pretend its for some much higher purpose until the dude either collars me himself or I find better"

People aren't taken advantage of- they choose their trainers.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 6/29/2008 6:16:49 PM >

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 5

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:17:51 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline

I have a sisterslave who's contract with my Master is a 'training contract'.
First, KatyLied, absolutely. No one can train you for someone else - esp someone you have not yet met or selected. Master told her very clearly that he was not 'training her for her future Master'. When she finds someone, that someone will want to do their own training.
However, i don't think that someone is expecting a BDSM virgin, either. The purpose of training is for HER - not for the future Dom.
Master does not, in fact, fuck her (although i am poly enough that i would have no problem with that, and she has tried to negotate for it, it is not what He desires to provide in the training). What he has done is specifically tried to allow her to experience small, measured tastes of a variety of things, and then went over activities checklists - again, and yet again - and allowed her to talk about her experience.
He has also provided mentourship, giving her someone to turn to when she wants to play with someone else. Since He does not desire eventual ownership of her, He has no ulterior motives when she asks if it is a good idea if she play with someone - He has said yes far more often than no, when she is the one asking. When someone else asks to play with her, His answer is usually whatever she tells Him she wants it to be.
Also, and i am sure many people won't care for this, but, hey, you live where you live and every local group is different - in our local scene, unattached submissives MUST be under someone's 'protection' at any party or event other than a simple munch - and it is much better recieved, even there. Dominants introduce themselves - and their submissives - at the begining of the munch. So subs don't much like having to introduce themselves. So, this relationship provides social benifits for her, as well. And she gets to pick the brains of a happy and established lifestyle couple while she works out what it is SHE wants, what her limits, likes, and dislikes, ect, are.
I understand the objections to the word 'training' as it is often used. But i am very comfortable with the definition being used in this household.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 6

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:21:47 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

He doesn't find it weird or disturbing that she lacks the ability to choose her own partners?

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 7

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:22:18 PM

chickpea

Posts: 446
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Los Angeles Area
Status: offline

i think if a Master makes you go to a trainer, that makes it more legitimate. If it's just a so-called Master approached an unowned sub, then I think that's when its just an easy fuck.

_____________________________

Congrats to both In the end it was win-win. Now let's get to work http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/john-mccain-concedes-election http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/17/transition.wrap/index.html

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 8

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:28:56 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

I have had people I was with that were in training and not going to be mine. I was not training them to serve, I was teaching them to find their limits before they moved on to a relationship. They were curous friends who wanteed to learn what they did and didnt like from someone who wouldnt try and push them before they were ready, and who had no interest in getting into their pants.
I have mentored before, both Dom and sub, never with any interest in sex or ownership. More to make sure someone knows what they are doing or getting into before they make promises they cant keep.
I agree with the otehrs, too. No one can train you to serve the elusive One you have not yet met.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 9

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:29:10 PM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

He doesn't find it weird or disturbing that she lacks the ability to choose her own partners?

I didn't read it in that way at all.
What I read, is she is new to all of this and unsure of how different kinds of play actually feel. That this girl/woman feels comfortable in talking to him before playing with master-firestarter-skin-flayer and listening if he advises she instead play with master-flog-in-one-hand-crop-in-the-other.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 10

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 6:30:42 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

He doesn't find it weird or disturbing that she lacks the ability to choose her own partners?

It sounds like she has chosen to be active in a scene in which unowned submissives are very much expected to be under someone's protection - or they can find another group.

Definately not my thing but if that is how she wants to do things... *shrugs* Having seen a friend recently decide to go a similiar route, I'm not as firmly convinced that desiring protection means you are unable of choosing your own partners. There are pros and cons to the situation.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 11

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 7:07:16 PM

Quivver

Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

When I read or hear of `training` the first thing that runs through my mind is WANKER.
Problem is all the silly girls that think they need trained, giving the wanker confirmation that they buy the idea that they do need trained.

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 12

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 7:25:16 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

greetings katie978,

personally, i don't see the use in it; another trainer wouldn't be able to make me a more useful slave to my master, so unless it was just something interesting to do until the right person comes along, i wouldn't have done it before i was with him. in terms of trying to gain useful skills to have once you do get into a d/s relationship, personally, i think deciding what skills you want to learn and seeking that out individually (whether it's cooking, dancing, or whatever) is a good way to go about it. if i had wanted to learn how to take a flogging or something i would have found a play partner, not a trainer. it does seem that a lot of the "trainers" are just looking for someone to take advantage of, but i'm sure there are sincere people out there - it just doesn't seem very useful to me if you are looking to eventually be in a 24/7 relationship.

respectfully,
a'ishah.

_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to katie978)

Post #: 13

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 7:36:52 PM

AllforFun

Posts: 83
Joined: 4/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

When someone can explain to me how one person can train you for another I will believe that trainers have a useful purpose.

yeah exactly.

I realize that most Doms/Dommes do some kind of training to get the sub attuned to their tastes, but are there really male doms out there who are calling themselves strictly "trainers?"

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 14

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/29/2008 10:07:05 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

All- there are many people out there who make excellent trainers, males, females, dom, subs, vanillas, switches, etc.

Very few call themselves trainers, but some do. There's one local here named Caroline and she is absolutely fabulous- you know, that 1% that ruins it for the rest of the wankers who call themselves trainers.

I'm a pretty darn good trainer, but have no desire to do it as a regular hobby or profession and certainly do not use it as an offician designation.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to AllforFun)

Post #: 15

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/30/2008 1:17:14 AM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline

Hell, these newbies get all excited and go running off to find the first joy ride that offers itself. If they make that choice-and the trainer basically says no real commitment-they made another choice. If they hit it off and like each other for more-who's to say that's wrong?

I wish you people would quit seeing subs and newbies as 'delicate flowers we need to protect." They were full grown adults capable of making thier own decisions long BEFORE they got involved in kink.

They don't need a pack of know it all perverts to make those decisions FOR them-do they?

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to katie978)

Post #: 16

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/30/2008 1:37:58 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: katie978

Having read many posts lately about "training", I've been pondering this interesting and pretty femsub/ maledom specific phenomenon. The dearth of female dominants means that when a male sub manages to find one, he usually keeps her.
The way I see it, a young, sub-frenzied girl new to the lifestyle wants to learn how to do things. An older, experienced dom who knows he has no chance to be this girl's boyfriend/master offers his services as a trainer: he gets to fuck her and fuck with her mind with no actual relationship. He may eventually convince her that he's a worthwhile partner, despite whatever initially made her decide to accept him only as a trainer.
I put out to the wise folk on the forums (and the rest of you too) what are the benefits of a trainer for a submissive? Is this always a shady enterprise, or are there legitimate relationships where a submissive actually learns something? Anyone have experience with this? Still with your trainer?

Who really knows katie?

Maybe there are Doms who've sent their submissives away to other Doms for training.

Maybe there is a cadre of women (or men) so anxious not to be thought of as 'new' that 'training' alleviates this anxiety.

It's almost certain some abusive men troll for submissive under the guise of trainers, and anyone considering this should tread lightly.

I had a Mentor -- who never touched me, did not allow me to flirt with him, and never took advantage of me in any way.

Some people would say even mentoring is predatory; others will say it's absolutely necessary.

I wouldn't be interested in training -- why would I want to learn to please a man who's not my Dom? Why would I want to risk learning bad habits my Dom will have to correct later? Why would I want any kind of intimacy with a man I did not care for?

But that's just me.

candystripper

(in reply to katie978)

Post #: 17

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/30/2008 6:28:56 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

If you use poor skills to select a trainer you'll likely get a poor trainer. Of course you could simply change thenoun from trainer to Master/Dom/ Whatever and the statement remains true. Of course the opposite is also true, which makes this truth very hard to argue against without going to the NOT ALLWAYYYYS, to arue against a post saying LIKELY. LOL

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 18

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/30/2008 6:33:31 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

To the "can't learn from anyone other than your ONE" crowd, I have to wonder how their general education went or if they waited until they found a job to learn to read, write, compute, etc since only their employer could know how they should do those things the way they wanted them done.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 19

RE: Training: Worthwhile or good way to take advantage ... - 6/30/2008 6:59:54 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

Almost all my own BDSM experience has been with female subs who knew more than I did, at least in certain areas. With one lady, I was kinda hoping she'd be the "One" -- but she wasn't. With the rest, it was an expression of mutual affection. I was certainly trained by them... and inspired by them to train myself to get better at things.

As another example, Master Fire's videos on how to do normal and reverse 6-Point Florentine Flogging (which she learned from Archer, above me here) inspired me to research floggers. (I don't own one, and always kind of avoided them, because I don't buy leather.) So I wrote a vegetarian prodomme I know, and asked people in Orlando to show me their non-leather floggers, so I'd get a feel for how different materials felt. I've also had two serious offers from female bottoms/subs that I can practice on them -- which is a pretty courageous offer to make, given my lack of expertise. Both of them have been flogged by experienced people before, so they'll be able to tell me what I'm doing right or wrong.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 20

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